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WW2 Navy policy on the dead when a ship is scuttled?
Topic Started: Mar 10 2018, 06:12 PM (485 Views)
Aaron_w
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Toady
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This came up under the discovery of the Lexington thread. I don't want to derail that thread, so I thought I'd ask here.

It is clearly a sensitive topic and if people are uncomfortable discussing it I will respect that and not pursue it. It is not a subject I have seen discussed.


In a situation such as the Lexington where there was time for an organized evacuation, and the ship went down under a time frame somewhat under their control was it the Navy's policy to leave bodies on board the ship as essentially a mass grave, or evacuate them with the wounded, for a later more formal burial at sea?

I could see it going either way. They could easily put a chaplain on board to do the formalities, and then torpedoes away, or do the recovery and later funerals.


From the USS Yorktown wikipedia entry there is this paragraph regarding the loss of that ship. Buckmaster was the Yorktown's captain.

Quote:
 
Over the next few minutes the crew lowered the wounded into life rafts and struck out for the nearby destroyers and cruisers to be picked up by their boats, abandoning ship in good order. After the evacuation of all wounded, the executive officer, Commander I. D. Wiltsie, left the ship down a line on the starboard side. Buckmaster, meanwhile, toured the ship one last time, to see if any men remained. After finding no "live personnel", Buckmaster lowered himself into the water by means of a line over the stern, by which time water was lapping the port side of the hangar deck.



This would suggest that they did in fact leave dead on board. At this point in the battle the Yorktown was believed lost and was being abandoned. It would turn out there were in fact 2 living crew members left on board who were later rescued, so the evacuation while orderly was rushed. Yorktown wouldn't actually sink for 2 more days after further recovery efforts and being torpedoed by a Japanese submarine which would ultimately lead to the ships loss.


It just brings up an interesting to me logistical detail even if a somewhat morbid item. Realistically I imagine during a major battle I suppose practicality would require that burials at sea would occur alongside damage control. While I assume ships have morgue capacity, when a ship losses 5-10% or more of its complement in a battle, I suspect pleasantries like formal funerals are impractical. I can understand writers not going into detail due to the unpleasantness, but it does provide some insight into just how unpleasant a naval battle was even if most historians tend to gloss over those details. It also strikes me as being similar to the airwar which often reduces the ordeals bomber crews faced.


Again, if people find this topic to be outside the scope of the site, or inappropriate to discuss I have no objection to it being closed to deleted.
Edited by Aaron_w, Mar 10 2018, 06:18 PM.
Aaron Woods
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J.C. Bahr
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Hero
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This reminds me of a photo I just saw in a book about Pearl Harbor... it showed several wood box caskets being buried in a sand dune near Pearl shortly after the battle and the thought occurred to me: "Why weren't these men sent home to their families?..." But then I realized, it was probably such a logistical nightmare back then to handle an overwhelming amount of bodies and with the immediacy of war and lack of any spare time... it just isn't feasible and tough decisions had to be made. I mean for pete's sake, we're STILL I.D.'ing bones all these years later! Plus, that's not to say that perhaps those bodies couldn't even be I.D.'ed with the means of the time at that very moment... so the quickest expediency had to be undertaken.

I could see the same with these ship battles and losses... saving the remaining living means letting the dead go for the expediency of war.
J.C. Bahr

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" - Leonard Nimoy
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Aaron_w
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Toady
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Definitely I mean look at how many US service cemeteries there are in Europe from WW1 and WW2. Modern air travel and relatively low intensity conflicts allow for the transport of fallen service members home, but it was a considerably more difficult task prior to perhaps the Vietnam war?

One the one hand I can understand, releasing photos of a formal funeral at sea is perhaps less shocking than what was probably reality. On the other it sort of seems something of a disservice to those who went through that. Like the airwar it sort of suggests serving on a ship was somehow cleaner, or less traumatic than fighting on land.

I suspect you are correct that the main difference between a ship like the Lexington being scuttled and a ship being abandoned as it sinks is simply the ability to better account for the crew. Perhaps the time to allow chaplains and such to do their job before sending the ship on its way.


I guess this was just one of those things I never put much thought into and it kind of hit me, what I already knew to be a pretty horrific situation, was probably a lot worse than I was imagining.
Aaron Woods
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Harold K
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Dweeb
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Fascinating question, Aaron :like:
Let's see what sort of response I get on the other m/b I frequent: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=166843
Box-shaker; hater of all things resin and photoetched.
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dixieflyer
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Aaron,
Both my father and uncle served in the US Army in the PTO during WWII. (My father was assigned to the 1st Marine Division headquarters as an intel NCO, and my uncle served in the 167th inf (4th Alabama) as a platoon sgt in a heavy weapons platoon.) My uncle was KIA during the war. When I was young, I noticed that some men were brought home and others weren't. There are a LOT of reasons for this. I asked my father why my uncle/his brother was not brought home. He told me, and I assume it's the truth, it was his request that if he fell, he be laid to rest with those he served with, and didn't want their mother troubled by it all, etc.

Now, I know that doesn't answer your initial question. I do remember watching some USS Enterprise veterans recall having to bury their comrades at sea on a Military Channel program not long ago. It was a lot of them, and it was pretty brutal as well to hear it recalled.
On a different note, there's this if y'all haven't seen it:
https://www.livescience.com/61933-wwii-pilot-plane-remains-found.html

Warren
"History is the lie we all agree upon."
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Harold K
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Dweeb
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Interesting link, Warren. But I've read it twice and nowhere do I see a mention of the a/c type :unsure:
Obviously not aimed at the likes of us.
Box-shaker; hater of all things resin and photoetched.
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dixieflyer
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Hero
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I understand, but I didn't post it for the a/c type, I posted it to point out that the USN shows concern for the remains of those they lost.

Apologies for bothering y'all with it.

Warren
"History is the lie we all agree upon."
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Mark Schynert
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Yeast
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Where a large ship is lost in running combat, and particularly where it is wracked by internal explosions, it would be a rare thing indeed to account for every crewman aboard before abandoning ship. There are considered to be war dead aboard the Lexington. The more grisly question would be whether there was anyone trapped but alive aboard when the ship was scuttled; I think this unlikely as there was a more-or-less orderly evacuation, as with the Yorktown (twice). But in all these cases, it wasn't like the XO was there with a clipboard accounting for each and every crewman as they came off. Certainly lists were compiled rapidly once things calmed down. The scuttling though, was done quickly because the last thing the surviving TF needed was a flaming beacon indicating which direction to head towards.
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Harold K
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Dweeb
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dixieflyer
Mar 11 2018, 02:18 AM
I understand, but I didn't post it for the a/c type, I posted it to point out that the USN shows concern for the remains of those they lost.

Apologies for bothering y'all with it.

Warren
Warren, no apologies. please!
I am fascinated by stories like this, whether on land or undersea. It's just that I would think the report this writer worked from made passing mention of the aircraft type (although maybe not) and if so it seems odd not to include just a line about that.
Box-shaker; hater of all things resin and photoetched.
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Greenshirt
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Tim Holland, Southern MD - USA
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The Navy and the ship’s Captain take accountability of every sailor very seriously. We drill constantly and “man overboard” is the one drill that attempts to account for every soul within minutes...even on a carrier w ~5,000. We all know where to go and who to tell, eventually (<30 minutes) the Captain has a list of names not accounted. Always very small (single digits) unless something major like an explosion or collision happens. Then it’s focus on finding those not mustered while also fighting to save the ship.

For Lex the Captain knew who was dead or missing. The missing were likely presumed dead based on the roles and expected location on the ship during General Quarters. They searched if they believed otherwise.

The dead are quickly buried at sea simply because there is no morgue...more modern ships have coolers for food designated as makeshift morgues but they only hold a handful and are transferred ashore as quickly as possible.

The Chaplain would have said funeral rites on the Lex as she went down. Both last rites for faiths that require them and the usual “down to the sea in ships” we all repeat on Sundays. The surviving crew and crews of ships in Company would have stood to attention and soluted their fallen shipmates as they went to their final rest. Only a few minutes.

But the work of a warship at war doesn’t end. They would then return to their tasks and make ready to face their foe again.

Ship, shipmate, self.

Tim
Tim Holland

I'm a "green shirt" because I work on the carrier's flight deck and maintain US Navy aircraft. Safe sorties are my life so we can be anywhere, anytime -- from the Sea.

http://greenshirt-modeler.blogspot.com/
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dixieflyer
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Hero
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There's a quote from Iosef Stalin I've used in my living history programs and my classroom for years:

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

In reading both volumes of Lundstrom's "The First Team", and the descriptions of the destruction caused by the bomb or torpedo hits on the carriers it crossed my mind as a former NCO and the training I'd received on being accountable for people that there would be a lot of "missing" sailors, aircrew, etc. because they literally ceased to exist. No way to account for them except to assume their utter destruction. Add to that the smoke, fire, damage parties, etc. and I am full of nothing but respect for the professionalism and effort that must have gone in to accounting for everyone.

Warren
"History is the lie we all agree upon."
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J.C. Bahr
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Interesting stuff here... glad this is not jumping the tracks.
J.C. Bahr

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" - Leonard Nimoy
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gmat
Advanced Member
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Speaking of the USS Lexington, does anyone remember the old Navy Log episode about the sailors trapped in a compartment and playing poker waiting to be rescued? It was set on a sinking carrier. The guy who played Jimmy Olsen in the old Superman was in it.

Grant
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Aaron_w
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Toady
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Thank you to all for understanding the intent of my post. There are many ways it could have gone sideways, and in fact I probably wouldn't have asked on most of the other places I frequent. You guys tend to be pretty level headed.



Grant, I don't know about that specifically but I do recall a Twilight Zone / Outer Limits kind of show with a similar theme. Workers hearing banging in a ship that turned out to be trapped crew members. I don't recall if it was a happy ending or supernatural "it was the ghosts" kind of thing.
Aaron Woods
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Aaron_w
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Toady
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dixieflyer
Mar 11 2018, 12:26 AM
Aaron,
Both my father and uncle served in the US Army in the PTO during WWII. (My father was assigned to the 1st Marine Division headquarters as an intel NCO, and my uncle served in the 167th inf (4th Alabama) as a platoon sgt in a heavy weapons platoon.) My uncle was KIA during the war. When I was young, I noticed that some men were brought home and others weren't. There are a LOT of reasons for this. I asked my father why my uncle/his brother was not brought home. He told me, and I assume it's the truth, it was his request that if he fell, he be laid to rest with those he served with, and didn't want their mother troubled by it all, etc.

Now, I know that doesn't answer your initial question. I do remember watching some USS Enterprise veterans recall having to bury their comrades at sea on a Military Channel program not long ago. It was a lot of them, and it was pretty brutal as well to hear it recalled.
On a different note, there's this if y'all haven't seen it:
https://www.livescience.com/61933-wwii-pilot-plane-remains-found.html

Warren
I can understand the individual or family preferring to leave the body with those he served with.




I know the military does take the identification of POW/MIAs seriously. It is nice to see that they will go to these lengths to identify a pilot 70+ years later.

Recovery from the sea does seem a little odd for the Navy though considering the large number of sailors buried at sea. I would have expected more of an identification and proper ceremony than a recovery. Perhaps the undisclosed location raises a concern of disturbance by salvage hunters. I would assume a case by case decision and as in your uncles case perhaps the wishes of the family. I'm sure they at least have a good idea of the identity based on location and aircraft type. The omission of location and aircraft type could well be intentional to not cause speculation until they can notify the nearest surviving family members.
Aaron Woods
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