Athiests and Agnostics alike,

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Athiests and Agnostics alike,
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 24 2008, 10:00 PM (4,227 Views)
UnknownCow	Nov 24 2008, 10:00 PM Post #1
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	What is is that stops you from going into complete nihilism and what is it that gives you any moral or ethic base? Do not look at this thread like an attempt on conversion, nay, that would be far to foolish of me to try, but on this specific issue, I'm interested on hearing you out. Please refrain from attacking mine or anyones beliefs except on this particular issue. Also keep in mind this thread is devoted less to Christianity vrs Athiesm or Agnosticism as it is devoted to Theism vrs Anti-theism.



Jam	Nov 25 2008, 03:34 AM Post #2
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Just because I don't believe in theism doesn't mean I'm prone to nihlism. Thats like me asking you what stops you from going atheist since you don't believe in every god. Like wise I reject some beliefs, doesn't mean I'd reject them all.
	Long live Carolus


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Nov 25 2008, 11:40 AM Post #3
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	What gives me any ethical and moral basis is life itself. But I don't completely understand what you're asking me Use simpler words :\|
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Nov 25 2008, 11:42 AM Post #4
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Not all atheists tend to think that every decision and action is as justified as any other; if somebody can kill someone, then they can, of course, but any person with a good heart would know that killing somebody for little reason is a bad thing to do. I put what I think is best over all ::)
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Supervizor	Nov 25 2008, 07:24 PM Post #5
Major Posts: 1,483 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: June 5, 2008	simple human nature and social skills taught from birth ;P. Just cause you don't believe god sends you to hell if you steal, doesn't mean you have to go out stealing. Considerations like: the suffering of the persons ur affecting a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth) believe in a better world afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or ofcourse prison.



UnknownCow	Nov 25 2008, 09:39 PM Post #6
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 03:34 AM Just because I don't believe in theism doesn't mean I'm prone to nihlism. Thats like me asking you what stops you from going atheist since you don't believe in every god. Like wise I reject some beliefs, doesn't mean I'd reject them all. I wasn't proposing that every Atheist is a nihilist, however, my question is, why arn'tyou a nihilist? Personaly I don't see how one can be an Atheist and not logicaly become a nihilist. My question is not if, logicaly or not, if you are a nihilist; but what line of reasoning you have on not being one.



UnknownCow	Nov 25 2008, 09:50 PM Post #7
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Supervizor Nov 25 2008, 07:24 PM simple human nature and social skills taught from birth ;P. Just cause you don't believe god sends you to hell if you steal, doesn't mean you have to go out stealing. Considerations like: the suffering of the persons ur affecting a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth) believe in a better world afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or ofcourse prison. The Christian system is not an authoritarian one, where we follow commands because we fear eternal judgement. Accordingly, you begining quip shows your ignorance of Christian doctrine. None of your considerations are meaningfull, but I will go through each one to show you why. "the suffering of the persons ur affecting" Why would I care? There is no set moral authority, Hitler is an angel, likewise Theresa a devil, for Hitler saved us from an evil race by destroying them, Theresa gave people hope, a crutch, none of them deserve to live! "a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth)" You confuse to things, being taught from a young age, and something inherent we are born with. However, I will answer both. Firstly, "a feeling that you shouldn't," where does this come from do you propose, it certainly would be a strange thing for natural evolution to grant to us, it certainly didn't grant this moral compass to the birds or beasts. Secondly, if you were taught such, it was by god-fearing people, or at least once god-fearing people. Mind you they might not nesasarily be Christians. "afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or of course prison." This reasoning is no better than your Christian strawman. "I do/don't do it because I fear the consequences!" Come on, pick a grown man's philosophy



UnknownCow	Nov 25 2008, 09:51 PM Post #8
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Nov 25 2008, 11:42 AM Not all atheists tend to think that every decision and action is as justified as any other; if somebody can kill someone, then they can, of course, but any person with a good heart would know that killing somebody for little reason is a bad thing to do. I put what I think is best over all ::) Good heart?! Who are you to judge Hitler, saviour of mankind!



Jam	Nov 25 2008, 11:20 PM Post #9
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 04:39 PM Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 03:34 AM Just because I don't believe in theism doesn't mean I'm prone to nihlism. Thats like me asking you what stops you from going atheist since you don't believe in every god. Like wise I reject some beliefs, doesn't mean I'd reject them all. I wasn't proposing that every Atheist is a nihilist, however, my question is, why arn'tyou a nihilist? Personaly I don't see how one can be an Atheist and not logicaly become a nihilist. My question is not if, logicaly or not, if you are a nihilist; but what line of reasoning you have on not being one. I said prone to nihlism. I'm not a nihlist because I believe in a right or wrong, I have ambitions and a sense of purpose. I just don't believe in supernatural things such as god and thats that.
	Long live Carolus


UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 01:36 AM Post #10
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 11:20 PM UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 04:39 PM Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 03:34 AM Just because I don't believe in theism doesn't mean I'm prone to nihlism.� Thats like me asking you what stops you from going atheist since you don't believe in every god.� Like wise I reject some beliefs, doesn't mean I'd reject them all. I wasn't proposing that every Atheist is a nihilist, however, my question is, why arn'tyou a nihilist? Personaly I don't see how one can be an Atheist and not logicaly become a nihilist. My question is not if, logicaly or not, if you are a nihilist; but what line of reasoning you have on not being one. I said prone to nihlism. I'm not a nihlist because I believe in a right or wrong, I have ambitions and a sense of purpose. I just don't believe in supernatural things such as god and thats that. And what may I ask, is your base of right and wrong? Secondarily, what's what? Is what the new thing? Or do you guys still say that? Thirdly, on a more somber note, ethic's base is by nature supernatural (oh the irony!)



Jam	Nov 26 2008, 05:47 AM Post #11
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 08:36 PM Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 11:20 PM UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 04:39 PM Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 03:34 AM Just because I don't believe in theism doesn't mean I'm prone to nihlism.� Thats like me asking you what stops you from going atheist since you don't believe in every god.� Like wise I reject some beliefs, doesn't mean I'd reject them all. I wasn't proposing that every Atheist is a nihilist, however, my question is, why arn'tyou a nihilist? Personaly I don't see how one can be an Atheist and not logicaly become a nihilist. My question is not if, logicaly or not, if you are a nihilist; but what line of reasoning you have on not being one. I said prone to nihlism. I'm not a nihlist because I believe in a right or wrong, I have ambitions and a sense of purpose. I just don't believe in supernatural things such as god and thats that. And what may I ask, is your base of right and wrong? Secondarily, what's what? Is what the new thing? Or do you guys still say that? Thirdly, on a more somber note, ethic's base is by nature supernatural (oh the irony!) As a human being its in my nature to care about other people, I can feel emotions. Sympath is an emotion, it makes me feel guilty when I hurt someone. Therefore hurting people is wrong. 'That's that' is just an definitive expression it doesn't mean anything Ethics is just the study of morals, how are ideas supernatural?
	Long live Carolus


MxDiane	Nov 26 2008, 06:45 AM Post #12
Worteltjes World Posts: 10,700 Group: Pegasus Member #3 Joined: December 13, 2007	whispers to Sal yooo dude!! you should join this debate 8D
	"He orders something unusual, like a Black Russian or a Tom Collins, and when you request a beer he says that surely a complex woman deserves a complex drink. " - Travis Grandt


UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 02:55 PM Post #13
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Nov 26 2008, 05:47 AM UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 08:36 PM Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 11:20 PM UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 04:39 PM Hyperactive Jam Nov 25 2008, 03:34 AM Just because I don't believe in theism doesn't mean I'm prone to nihlism.� Thats like me asking you what stops you from going atheist since you don't believe in every god.� Like wise I reject some beliefs, doesn't mean I'd reject them all. I wasn't proposing that every Atheist is a nihilist, however, my question is, why arn'tyou a nihilist? Personaly I don't see how one can be an Atheist and not logicaly become a nihilist. My question is not if, logicaly or not, if you are a nihilist; but what line of reasoning you have on not being one. I said prone to nihlism. I'm not a nihlist because I believe in a right or wrong, I have ambitions and a sense of purpose. I just don't believe in supernatural things such as god and thats that. And what may I ask, is your base of right and wrong? Secondarily, what's what? Is what the new thing? Or do you guys still say that? Thirdly, on a more somber note, ethic's base is by nature supernatural (oh the irony!) As a human being its in my nature to care about other people, I can feel emotions. Sympath is an emotion, it makes me feel guilty when I hurt someone. Therefore hurting people is wrong. 'That's that' is just an definitive expression it doesn't mean anything Ethics is just the study of morals, how are ideas supernatural? This is far to simplistic. To begin, you seem to think that because you feel guilty, it's wrong. Hitler certainly didn't feel like he did anything wrong. This is pure subjectivitey, not a real moral system. Also, I believe I already brought up the question, "Why do you think it is in your nature?" Is this part of the evolutionary process? (I'm no Creationist mind you, I'm simply asserting that the natural process of evolution would not grant us with such a strange form of morals.) Exactly, "that's that" means nothing. Ethics is the study of morals, morals must be objective to be worth anything, to be worth anything they must be objective, if they are objective, than no matter what humans decide is wrong or right, they will remain the same. Accordingly this means that the rules of ethics are above nature. Above nature; supernatural.



UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 02:56 PM Post #14
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	MxDiane Nov 26 2008, 06:45 AM whispers to Sal yooo dude!! you should join this debate 8D Hmm, I'd love to see Saladin again.



MxDiane	Nov 26 2008, 03:10 PM Post #15
Worteltjes World Posts: 10,700 Group: Pegasus Member #3 Joined: December 13, 2007	UnknownCow Nov 26 2008, 02:56 PM MxDiane Nov 26 2008, 06:45 AM whispers to Sal yooo dude!! you should join this debate 8D Hmm, I'd love to see Saladin again. just chat him up on msn and tell him how Muslim > Athiests that will def. get a conversation going.
	"He orders something unusual, like a Black Russian or a Tom Collins, and when you request a beer he says that surely a complex woman deserves a complex drink. " - Travis Grandt


Supervizor	Nov 26 2008, 04:32 PM Post #16
Major Posts: 1,483 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: June 5, 2008	UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 09:50 PM Supervizor Nov 25 2008, 07:24 PM simple human nature and social skills taught from birth ;P. Just cause you don't believe god sends you to hell if you steal, doesn't mean you have to go out stealing. Considerations like: the suffering of the persons ur affecting a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth) believe in a better world afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or ofcourse prison. The Christian system is not an authoritarian one, where we follow commands because we fear eternal judgement. Accordingly, you begining quip shows your ignorance of Christian doctrine. None of your considerations are meaningfull, but I will go through each one to show you why. "the suffering of the persons ur affecting" Why would I care? There is no set moral authority, Hitler is an angel, likewise Theresa a devil, for Hitler saved us from an evil race by destroying them, Theresa gave people hope, a crutch, none of them deserve to live! "a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth)" You confuse to things, being taught from a young age, and something inherent we are born with. However, I will answer both. Firstly, "a feeling that you shouldn't," where does this come from do you propose, it certainly would be a strange thing for natural evolution to grant to us, it certainly didn't grant this moral compass to the birds or beasts. Secondly, if you were taught such, it was by god-fearing people, or at least once god-fearing people. Mind you they might not nesasarily be Christians. "afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or of course prison." This reasoning is no better than your Christian strawman. "I do/don't do it because I fear the consequences!" Come on, pick a grown man's philosophy 1) its in our nature to do care about others. If you need proof of then u should just think about all those peope who do volunteer work. It is (maybe biologicially) inside our own nature. That doesn't need further proof: you obviously helped somebody in ur life once without receiveing anything in return. 2) a feeling you shouldn't: if you go to a store now and you could steal something, something inside you will say: this is not rigt to do. Its human nature. Whether everbody has that, idk. I just know that i couldn't steal if i had the chance cause it would feel like im doing something wrong. oke, i owe you the rest. got dinner. cu



UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 05:34 PM Post #17
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	MxDiane Nov 26 2008, 03:10 PM UnknownCow Nov 26 2008, 02:56 PM MxDiane Nov 26 2008, 06:45 AM whispers to Sal yooo dude!! you should join this debate 8D Hmm, I'd love to see Saladin again. just chat him up on msn and tell him how Muslim > Athiests that will def. get a conversation going. I would be inadequate to discuss it with him. However, my understanding of Islam is limited, and I doubt I could do much. Besides as a Christian it would be an unnesasary step to bring him to Islam from Atheism when the ultimate goal is for him to see the faith of Christ. Feel free to send him a message to visit us at A414A.



Big Richard	Nov 26 2008, 05:35 PM Post #18
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	You wouldn't steal because its "wrong" but because you know the consequences, and the consequences aren't worth the beef jerky you were just about to steal, especially when you can just buy it.



MxDiane	Nov 26 2008, 05:41 PM Post #19
Worteltjes World Posts: 10,700 Group: Pegasus Member #3 Joined: December 13, 2007	UnknownCow Nov 26 2008, 05:34 PM MxDiane Nov 26 2008, 03:10 PM UnknownCow Nov 26 2008, 02:56 PM MxDiane Nov 26 2008, 06:45 AM whispers to Sal yooo dude!! you should join this debate 8D Hmm, I'd love to see Saladin again. just chat him up on msn and tell him how Muslim > Athiests that will def. get a conversation going. I would be inadequate to discuss it with him. However, my understanding of Islam is limited, and I doubt I could do much. Besides as a Christian it would be an unnesasary step to bring him to Islam from Atheism when the ultimate goal is for him to see the faith of Christ. Feel free to send him a message to visit us at A414A. O: then talk about how Christians > Athiests that would get a convo going. yes i will
	"He orders something unusual, like a Black Russian or a Tom Collins, and when you request a beer he says that surely a complex woman deserves a complex drink. " - Travis Grandt


UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 05:42 PM Post #20
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Supervizor Nov 26 2008, 04:32 PM UnknownCow Nov 25 2008, 09:50 PM Supervizor Nov 25 2008, 07:24 PM simple human nature and social skills taught from birth ;P. Just cause you don't believe god sends you to hell if you steal, doesn't mean you have to go out stealing. Considerations like: the suffering of the persons ur affecting a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth) believe in a better world afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or ofcourse prison. The Christian system is not an authoritarian one, where we follow commands because we fear eternal judgement. Accordingly, you begining quip shows your ignorance of Christian doctrine. None of your considerations are meaningfull, but I will go through each one to show you why. "the suffering of the persons ur affecting" Why would I care? There is no set moral authority, Hitler is an angel, likewise Theresa a devil, for Hitler saved us from an evil race by destroying them, Theresa gave people hope, a crutch, none of them deserve to live! "a feeling that you shouldn't (taught from birth)" You confuse to things, being taught from a young age, and something inherent we are born with. However, I will answer both. Firstly, "a feeling that you shouldn't," where does this come from do you propose, it certainly would be a strange thing for natural evolution to grant to us, it certainly didn't grant this moral compass to the birds or beasts. Secondly, if you were taught such, it was by god-fearing people, or at least once god-fearing people. Mind you they might not nesasarily be Christians. "afraid for penalties like people thinking ur some loony or of course prison." This reasoning is no better than your Christian strawman. "I do/don't do it because I fear the consequences!" Come on, pick a grown man's philosophy 1) its in our nature to do care about others. If you need proof of then u should just think about all those peope who do volunteer work. It is (maybe biologicially) inside our own nature. That doesn't need further proof: you obviously helped somebody in ur life once without receiveing anything in return. 2) a feeling you shouldn't: if you go to a store now and you could steal something, something inside you will say: this is not rigt to do. Its human nature. Whether everbody has that, idk. I just know that i couldn't steal if i had the chance cause it would feel like im doing something wrong. oke, i owe you the rest. got dinner. cu So your a human nature worship, follow our instincts eh? Oh come on. I thought this silly philosophy died out hundreds of years ago after the fall of the Humanists at the end of the Renaisance. I don't need proof that there is a human goodness, I'm challenging you to explain it. Your argument is weak, because not everyone still has this moral compass. So, you base you moral beliefs off concience. I have no doubt in mind that Hitler acted on concience too. Enjoy your dinner. Best regards.



UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 05:44 PM Post #21
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Big Richard Nov 26 2008, 05:35 PM You wouldn't steal because its "wrong" but because you know the consequences, and the consequences aren't worth the beef jerky you were just about to steal, especially when you can just buy it. So it's wrong because a human decreed that it's wrong? Your basing ethics on a human!? The notion would be laughable if the issue wasn't so serious.



Supervizor	Nov 26 2008, 08:06 PM Post #22
Major Posts: 1,483 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: June 5, 2008	hmmmm when im "debatting" i tend to make it jokish, ur just being annoying ;P. My arguments are based on a "silly philosophy"? Telling richards argument is laughable? Oke, i can live with that. But im not gonna discuss this with you if ur being such a little shit. And why are humans good you ask? Biologists believe its cause of empathy, the ability to put utself in somebody else his shoes. Other people might say its cause of religion: people believed in god and his laws and made social rules. Society passes on these social rules to people thru media, friends, family etc. Now that religion is fading, the social rules are fading a bit aswell. But the decay isn't as fast as the decay of religion. Therefor, atm we still have relative "good" people. im sure there are other theorys. Cba to search for the, though ;P. First one i know off, second one i made myself ghehe. Not gonna continue this debat, ur being annoying and i learned my lesson well ;P. Im starting to miss Saladin too, he had lame arguments and ignored alot of things but atleast he had some decency.



UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 08:40 PM Post #23
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Sorry. However the proper response would be to show me why the notion isn't laughable, and why the Humanist position isn't silly. The fact that you don't seem to do this puts your intellect on the line, not mine. I'm a decent person, you must know little of me to think otherwise. But, I do not feel ashamed at what I said however because if my argument is correct, than so are my rants. Some things are laughable supervizor. While I can be kind, there is no wrong at pointing out that something is rediculous, assuming I have the intellectual integrity to back it up, which I did. I can't make you continue to discuss, however, tou make a fool out of yourself if you don't. I am not asking you so much if humans are "good." I'm asking how you can determine good and evil.



gs	Nov 26 2008, 09:34 PM Post #24
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	does it matter?



Big Richard	Nov 26 2008, 09:34 PM Post #25
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	Good and evil were based upon the Bible and like I said consequences. That's how superstitions start too. "If you don't do this (which is supposed to be good), THIS (which is supposed to be bad) will happen!" So then they base things of right and wrong, good and evil off of that. Good and evil is also by perspective, not usually by cause or reason. Americans think they're the good and terrorists evil, and the opposite for the terrorist perspective. So there is no set values. Morals being based off a human is laughable? So what wouldn't be laughable, a fucking cow or alien or god or something? Of course it's set by humans, because we ARE humans, we're intelligent enough to set values for ourselves and were taught what was RIGHT and what was WRONG ever since there were laws and rules that had to be followed. Before then, there was no right or wrong people did whatever the hell they wanted. That's why when people don't give a shit about hte law anymore, they do whatever they want becasue there's no more CONSEQUENCES. Do you get it?



Supervizor	Nov 26 2008, 10:08 PM Post #26
Major Posts: 1,483 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: June 5, 2008	alot of talking, and a poor excuse ;P. Saying somebody else his arguments are laughable is just annoying, so don't make lame excuses. No wonder ur asking how to define good and evil, u haven't even heard of normal social behavior.



Jam	Nov 26 2008, 10:25 PM Post #27
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	"To begin, you seem to think that because you feel guilty, it's wrong." No thats not at all what I think. I'm saying that our emotions are our basis for our morals, Hitler didn't feel guilty about killing Jews and guess what he did? He killed more Jews because he thought he was morally justified. Emotions are basis for our morals, and our emotions are influenced by many many stimuli from both nature and nurture. We're all have a built in sense of right and wrong wether or not we all have it the same way, and many influences in our life (yes religion is one of them) play an important role in shaping our morals, but no one is solely responsible and the levels at which they are responsible vary for individuals given their environments. "the rules of ethics are above nature. Above nature; supernatural." What you are saying is that ethics are absolute. So human opinion can't change what ethics are, that certainly makes them above opinion, but not nature. Tons of things are absolute truths and indifferent to opinion, basically any fact is supernatural? I don't understand your resoning, can you break it down?
	Long live Carolus


UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 10:40 PM Post #28
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	gs Nov 26 2008, 09:34 PM does it matter? Yes. Yes it does.



UnknownCow	Nov 26 2008, 10:44 PM Post #29
Lieutenant Posts: 381 Group: Member Member #131 Joined: October 22, 2008	Big Richard Nov 26 2008, 09:34 PM Good and evil were based upon the Bible and like I said consequences. That's how superstitions start too. "If you don't do this (which is supposed to be good), THIS (which is supposed to be bad) will happen!" So then they base things of right and wrong, good and evil off of that. Good and evil is also by perspective, not usually by cause or reason. Americans think they're the good and terrorists evil, and the opposite for the terrorist perspective. So there is no set values. Morals being based off a human is laughable? So what wouldn't be laughable, a fucking cow or alien or god or something? Of course it's set by humans, because we ARE humans, we're intelligent enough to set values for ourselves and were taught what was RIGHT and what was WRONG ever since there were laws and rules that had to be followed. Before then, there was no right or wrong people did whatever the hell they wanted. That's why when people don't give a shit about hte law anymore, they do whatever they want becasue there's no more CONSEQUENCES. Do you get it? It's laughable because each human will have there own code of ethics, and no longer do they mean anything. You go on and on about why people follow rules. Yes, yes, yes of course because of the consequence! But it isn't because they have consequences that make them moraly right or wrong. People have different perspectives on good and evil, but are they all right?



gs	Nov 26 2008, 10:47 PM Post #30
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	UnknownCow Nov 26 2008, 11:40 PM gs Nov 26 2008, 09:34 PM does it matter? Yes. Yes it does. Oh. Okay then.



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