The Weapon

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The Weapon
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 30 2011, 08:07 AM (2,248 Views)
DragonLegend	Apr 23 2011, 01:56 PM Post #31
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	No, sir. I'm dead serial. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html



Jam	Apr 23 2011, 04:40 PM Post #32
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	"It embodies the guiding principles of the country's penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society."
	Long live Carolus


Jack the IV	Apr 23 2011, 04:45 PM Post #33
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	Honestly I could see that working. I mean if you shove someone in a prison, their experience there is going to shape their life after they leave...
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


Jam	Apr 23 2011, 04:57 PM Post #34
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	I think if you have to live with the oppression, disrespect and violence day to day you will be more bitter and prone to violence when you get out, you would also feel alienated from society and be less able to feel empathy.
	Long live Carolus


Incog	Apr 23 2011, 05:34 PM Post #35
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Oh yeah but that's one prison. ;/
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


DragonLegend	Apr 23 2011, 07:55 PM Post #36
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	I didn't say all prisons were like that one, but it does seem that this is the authority's mentality. Prison is supposed to punish criminals and frighten them to the point that they would never commit a/the crime again. Cooking classes and massages for a man who raped and murdered a child is what's truly inhumane here.



Jam	Apr 23 2011, 11:08 PM Post #37
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	I doubt they send those people there. It's clearly a minimum security prison.
	Long live Carolus


Jack the IV	Apr 23 2011, 11:52 PM Post #38
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	DragonLegend Apr 23 2011, 07:55 PM I didn't say all prisons were like that one, but it does seem that this is the authority's mentality. Prison is supposed to punish criminals and frighten them to the point that they would never commit a/the crime again. Cooking classes and massages for a man who raped and murdered a child is what's truly inhumane here. Why can't prisons love people so much that they themselves turn loving? When people are abused they themselves abuse. Sure you can punish someone all you want, it doesn't mean they won't end up committing another crime.
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


_Saladin_	Apr 24 2011, 04:10 AM Post #39
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	DragonLegend Apr 23 2011, 07:55 PM I didn't say all prisons were like that one, but it does seem that this is the authority's mentality. Prison is supposed to punish criminals and frighten them to the point that they would never commit a/the crime again. Cooking classes and massages for a man who raped and murdered a child is what's truly inhumane here. No! They're not! Punish, yes, frighten, no. A part of a prison's function is to rehabilitate the person so that the crime won't be repeated. You don't do that by traumatizing the person; that prevents them from reintegrating into society. A person filled with fear and anger will turn to the dark side of the force. Also, they will exhibit unsocial behavior.



Big Richard	Apr 24 2011, 05:05 AM Post #40
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	criminals should be treated as patients not evil demons lol. We're all a product of our circumstances, a smart society is one that works to rehabilitate criminals by putting them in a rehabilitating environment not one meant for punishment.



Jam	Apr 24 2011, 05:31 AM Post #41
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNZ6Wc4Xmb0
	Long live Carolus


Incog	Apr 24 2011, 10:46 AM Post #42
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	_Saladin_ Apr 24 2011, 04:10 AM A person filled with fear and anger will turn to the dark side of the force. Also, they will exhibit unsocial behavior.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


gs	Apr 24 2011, 12:27 PM Post #43
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	_Saladin_ Apr 24 2011, 04:10 AM DragonLegend Apr 23 2011, 07:55 PM I didn't say all prisons were like that one, but it does seem that this is the authority's mentality. Prison is supposed to punish criminals and frighten them to the point that they would never commit a/the crime again. Cooking classes and massages for a man who raped and murdered a child is what's truly inhumane here. No! They're not! Punish, yes, frighten, no. A part of a prison's function is to rehabilitate the person so that the crime won't be repeated. You don't do that by traumatizing the person; that prevents them from reintegrating into society. A person filled with fear and anger will turn to the dark side of the force. Also, they will exhibit unsocial behavior. nice one



_Saladin_	Apr 24 2011, 01:04 PM Post #44
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	That really is the take-home message from my post. Also, I really liked that video jam, it was really nice seeing how love can bring out the best in people. Edited by _Saladin_, Apr 24 2011, 01:10 PM.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Apr 25 2011, 12:03 PM Post #45
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Can any part of life be larger than life? Even love must be limited by time And those who push us down that they might climb Is any killer worth more than his crime? Like a steely blade in a silken sheath We don't see what they're made of They shout about love, but when push comes to shove They live for the things they're afraid of Rush is a good band
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Apr 25 2011, 12:11 PM Post #46
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	That Labrador was so cute.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


DragonLegend	Apr 25 2011, 11:13 PM Post #47
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Apr 23 2011, 11:08 PM I doubt they send those people there. It's clearly a minimum security prison. You sure about that? Quote: Halden, Norway�s second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country�s penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society. �When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape,� Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. �We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people.�



DragonLegend	Apr 25 2011, 11:22 PM Post #48
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Jack the IV Apr 23 2011, 11:52 PM DragonLegend Apr 23 2011, 07:55 PM I didn't say all prisons were like that one, but it does seem that this is the authority's mentality. Prison is supposed to punish criminals and frighten them to the point that they would never commit a/the crime again. Cooking classes and massages for a man who raped and murdered a child is what's truly inhumane here. Why can't prisons love people so much that they themselves turn loving? When people are abused they themselves abuse. Sure you can punish someone all you want, it doesn't mean they won't end up committing another crime. "Loving" and rehabilitat



Jam	Apr 26 2011, 01:23 AM Post #49
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	DragonLegend Apr 25 2011, 11:13 PM Hyperactive Jam Apr 23 2011, 11:08 PM I doubt they send those people there. It's clearly a minimum security prison. You sure about that? Quote: Halden, Norway�s second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country�s penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society. �When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape,� Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. �We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people.� I mean the people who are still dangerous, the psychopaths. I do not support 'revenge justice'.
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Apr 27 2011, 07:12 PM Post #50
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	How do you know those people aren't still dangerous? And I'm pretty sure I wrote something in post 48. Don't know what happened to it.



Jam	Apr 27 2011, 10:57 PM Post #51
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	DragonLegend Apr 27 2011, 07:12 PM How do you know those people aren't still dangerous? And I'm pretty sure I wrote something in post 48. Don't know what happened to it. They are psychologically assessed by professionals, they consider the person's history, etc.
	Long live Carolus


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Apr 28 2011, 10:27 AM Post #52
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	There is no such thing as a human psychology; there is only God, and it is He who impels us.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


DragonLegend	Apr 29 2011, 01:39 PM Post #53
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Apr 27 2011, 10:57 PM DragonLegend Apr 27 2011, 07:12 PM How do you know those people aren't still dangerous? And I'm pretty sure I wrote something in post 48. Don't know what happened to it. They are psychologically assessed by professionals, they consider the person's history, etc. Where did you get that? It doesn't say in the Time article. And aren't all rapists and murderers (of innocents in cold blood, obviously) psychopathic, if one doesn't believe in good vs evil? But that's a discussion for another day. I don't want to derail the topic.



Jam	Apr 29 2011, 03:10 PM Post #54
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	DragonLegend Apr 29 2011, 01:39 PM Hyperactive Jam Apr 27 2011, 10:57 PM DragonLegend Apr 27 2011, 07:12 PM How do you know those people aren't still dangerous? And I'm pretty sure I wrote something in post 48. Don't know what happened to it. They are psychologically assessed by professionals, they consider the person's history, etc. Where did you get that? It doesn't say in the Time article. And aren't all rapists and murderers (of innocents in cold blood, obviously) psychopathic, if one doesn't believe in good vs evil? But that's a discussion for another day. I don't want to derail the topic. The article is about the prison not the Norwegian justice system. Psychological assessment is used world wide in courts to determine the proper sentence. It's common sense that they won't send people who are prone to violent outbursts or are suicidal to a prison with glass cell windows, unarmed gaurds, and cooking classes where they get to handle knives.
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Apr 29 2011, 08:58 PM Post #55
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	I'm just talking about that particular prison. Common sense doesn't apply here. These people give cooking classes and music lessons to murderers and rapists, for Pete's sake. Why wouldn't they send people who could return to their evil ways after release? I've seen no evidence that they don't, but admittedly I've only read that Time article.



Jam	Apr 30 2011, 03:08 AM Post #56
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	DragonLegend Apr 29 2011, 08:58 PM I'm just talking about that particular prison. Common sense doesn't apply here. These people give cooking classes and music lessons to murderers and rapists, for Pete's sake. Why wouldn't they send people who could return to their evil ways after release? I've seen no evidence that they don't, but admittedly I've only read that Time article. Right, because it's common sense that a murderer should be given the worst treatment possible short of torture, and if they don't follow the golden rule that this is the only valid way of dealing with criminals then they obviously have no clue about how to manage the safety of the inmates and staff. How dare they attempt to turn bad people into good people, there is nothing worse than a former rapist that can play the flute, he'd probably use it to lure the town children to his cabin by the fjord. Any person can commit a second crime just as any person can commit a first crime. Only 20% of people released from prisons in Norway end up back in prison (60% in the USA), so clearly people are significantly less likely to commit a second crime than they are to commit a first crime.
	Long live Carolus


Big Richard	Apr 30 2011, 08:16 PM Post #57
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	jam just laid down the facts haha



DragonLegend	May 1 2011, 04:56 AM Post #58
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Apr 30 2011, 03:08 AM Right, because it's common sense that a murderer should be given the worst treatment possible short of torture, and if they don't follow the golden rule that this is the only valid way of dealing with criminals then they obviously have no clue about how to manage the safety of the inmates and staff. How dare they attempt to turn bad people into good people, there is nothing worse than a former rapist that can play the flute, he'd probably use it to lure the town children to his cabin by the fjord. Right, because straw men are awesome! Who said anything about torture? Just don't put the beasts in spas and give them cooking classes and Kumbaya singing sessions. Quote: Any person can commit a second crime just as any person can commit a first crime. Only 20% of people released from prisons in Norway end up back in prison (60% in the USA), so clearly people are significantly less likely to commit a second crime than they are to commit a first crime. It's 40-50% in the US, according to the latest Pew study. I don't know where they got the 60% figure. Either way, it's at least double Norway's rate, I suppose. But, as the article said, Norway doesn't track recidivism rates the same way America does. Even in the US, not every place tracks recidivism the same way, so you can't compare the US as a whole to Norway. Also, the US' relatively high recidivism rate is due to other factors than the prison system, and Norway's recidivism rates are meaningless, since for all we know, 99% of their prisoners could be low-risk, nonviolent offenders who most likely wouldn't return to crime. But I digress. The discussion isn't about which system is better. It's about the morality of treating rapists and murderers like misguided children. How do their victims and their families feel about this? How would you feel if the man who raped your daughter was living like a king in a spa? This reminds me of something Reagan once said; �We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.� Rapists and murderers are to be executed or, at least, held in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison for the rest of their lives. That's the moral, just and wise thing to do.



_Saladin_	May 1 2011, 03:26 PM Post #59
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	The judicial system is mostly objective, it does not depend on "how would you feel?". That is totally subjective, and a fallacy called appealing to emotion, which is pretty ironic considering you pointed out a straw man fallacy in the same post.



Jam	May 1 2011, 06:43 PM Post #60
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Quote: Right, because straw men are awesome! Who said anything about torture? Just don't put the beasts in spas and give them cooking classes and Kumbaya singing sessions. I said "worst treatment short of torture". I suppose you misread that. Quote: But I digress. The discussion isn't about which system is better. It's about the morality of treating rapists and murderers like misguided children. How do their victims and their families feel about this? How would you feel if the man who raped your daughter was living like a king in a spa? Some are angry about it, some are okay with it, some people have even forgiven the person who murdered their loved one. If he were living like a king in a spa? Well clearly he must have evaded the law and taken over a small African nation, I imagine I'd be upset about that. Quote: This reminds me of something Reagan once said; �We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.� Rapists and murderers are to be executed or, at least, held in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison for the rest of their lives. That's the moral, just and wise thing to do. They absolutely should be held accountable, which is why they go to prison. They do keep some of those people in prison for the rest of their lives, the ones who are remorseless psychopaths. People do commit horrible crimes for various reasons and feel remorse and guilt, they are human beings. The purpose of the justice system is not to carry out revenge on behalf of the victims.
	Long live Carolus


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