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Tweet Topic Started: Jul 13 2011, 08:11 AM (2,439 Views)
Jam	Jul 16 2011, 06:16 PM Post #31
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Tic-tac-toe has no luck involved.
	Long live Carolus


Jack the IV	Jul 16 2011, 06:17 PM Post #32
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	But it's a solved game
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Jul 16 2011, 06:35 PM Post #33
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Monopoly. Pure skill. Believe me.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Vondongo	Jul 17 2011, 01:21 AM Post #34
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	gs Jul 16 2011, 11:10 AM Big Richard Jul 15 2011, 07:45 PM I still think sc2 is more fun than any other rts I've played. besides TAD is gay as hell with OP japanese, stupid gendarme or imperial cuirasser or w/e the french had that was OP and other such BS. there's BS in any game there's 2 types of balance. it's not just about the maps/civs etc, it's also how big of a factor luck is. big luck factor = imbalanced game because you don't necessarily have to outplay your opponent to win. and while it's true what you said about this not mattering on a non-professional level, this is ironic since now you're complaining about aoe's balance. anyway. sc2 is less skill rewarding than aoe3 and more luck based, allows coin flip strats and for people who want to play a game where only skill matters (which includes me/incog/sam so we're not just talking professionals here) this is unacceptable. How so? I'm not doubting you by any means, but I'd honestly like to know what makes it so "luck-based."



Incog	Jul 17 2011, 07:55 AM Post #35
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Incog Jul 15 2011, 07:35 PM Well the openings are sort of luck based. The guy that starts with the build that counters his opponents gets an early advantage if he doesn't make any mistakes and it's really hard (almost impossible) to scout what build your going. Hence coin flip games. this you can't know what your opponent is opening with and he can't know what you're opening with. since openings sort of counter each other, one player gets an early advantage whereas the other suffers damage... but there's no way of scouting your opponent's opening and reacting accordingly.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Jack the IV	Jul 17 2011, 08:01 AM Post #36
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	Yea because you can't send a probe to see what he's doing.
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


Ichigo1uk	Jul 17 2011, 10:20 AM Post #37
Huh? Posts: 9,838 Group: A414A Member Member #10 Joined: December 14, 2007	Rock paper scissors
	Incog Jan 19 2012, 05:34 PM I think unicorns have a higher chance of existing than gods do. I mean, if a mare fell into the ocean and a narwhal raped it, then the mare might just give birth to a unicorn.


Incog	Jul 17 2011, 11:58 AM Post #38
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Jack the IV Jul 17 2011, 08:01 AM Yea because you can't send a probe to see what he's doing. No you can't... you can easily get a a few lings, marines and a stalker out in time to kill the scout before you start building the structures needed for whatever opening you're going for. Park a few units at the ramp and he'll never be able to get up to see your tech path. P observers come too late to compensate this, same with Hallucination. Spread a few ranged units around your base and you're not going to see shit with overlords. You need to get lucky with scans because your opponent can spread his tech in his base. The best you can scout is expansion timings, which aren't relevant in the case of one-base all-in strats. Openings come down more or less to luck. How many times have I watched pros get knocked out by stupid/silly openings? Like July vs Puma in the recent NASL. It's silly. After the build order poker is over though the game can be interesting and entertaining to watch, if the players are nicely matched and don't do stupid shit. Stupid shit (cheese) is just too strong and scouting too weak. But even if the game gets pasted bo poker, the macro is easy. Abilities aren't proper imo. Fungal Growth can't be dodged and is borderline broken. It prevents units from moving which is fucking stupid in an RTS game. FG would be much more interesting if it slowed units down instead of trapping them. Storm was good but it you barely see it these days because it got nerfed. Micro these days is just making sure your units don't ball up and have them spread out. Bullshit compared to Aoe3 micro. All in all SC2 just isn't that great an RTS game, the only thing it has going for it is the size of the community, tournaments available and the racial balance.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Vondongo	Jul 17 2011, 01:00 PM Post #39
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	Incog Jul 17 2011, 07:55 AM Incog Jul 15 2011, 07:35 PM Well the openings are sort of luck based. The guy that starts with the build that counters his opponents gets an early advantage if he doesn't make any mistakes and it's really hard (almost impossible) to scout what build your going. Hence coin flip games. this you can't know what your opponent is opening with and he can't know what you're opening with. since openings sort of counter each other, one player gets an early advantage whereas the other suffers damage... but there's no way of scouting your opponent's opening and reacting accordingly. Ahh yeah, I see what you mean. Like in AOE3, you see an Otto not really chopping wood but mining a lot of gold and keeping some vills hunting--if his deck has a notable number of age 3 cards you can reasonably make an assumption that he's going to FF and react accordingly. Whereas in SC everything is MINERALS and/or VESPENE GAS. There are no technological ages, there are no cards, there are no gathering rate improvements, all technologies research incredibly slow, and there are no minutemen. Which I guess all lends itself to luck-based gameplay, since like you said, scouting is so tough to do in the first place.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Jul 17 2011, 02:11 PM Post #40
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	So glad I didn't buy it trullululululz.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


gs	Jul 17 2011, 03:55 PM Post #41
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	yeah scouting is impossible against a good player and added to that is that all in strats are much stronger than in almost any RTS. these 2 factors combined allow a player to play in such a way that the game is luck based instead of it all coming down to who outplays who



Jack the IV	Jul 17 2011, 05:40 PM Post #42
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	Mmm yea that's true. I don't like 1v1 mainly because I'm in the dark most of the time and have no idea wtf they're doing. 2v2s are funner though because usually you can defend unless it's some tryhard all in.
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


Incog	Jul 17 2011, 06:45 PM Post #43
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Redemption Jul 17 2011, 01:00 PM Incog Jul 17 2011, 07:55 AM Incog Jul 15 2011, 07:35 PM Well the openings are sort of luck based. The guy that starts with the build that counters his opponents gets an early advantage if he doesn't make any mistakes and it's really hard (almost impossible) to scout what build your going. Hence coin flip games. this you can't know what your opponent is opening with and he can't know what you're opening with. since openings sort of counter each other, one player gets an early advantage whereas the other suffers damage... but there's no way of scouting your opponent's opening and reacting accordingly. Ahh yeah, I see what you mean. Like in AOE3, you see an Otto not really chopping wood but mining a lot of gold and keeping some vills hunting--if his deck has a notable number of age 3 cards you can reasonably make an assumption that he's going to FF and react accordingly. Whereas in SC everything is MINERALS and/or VESPENE GAS. There are no technological ages, there are no cards, there are no gathering rate improvements, all technologies research incredibly slow, and there are no minutemen. Which I guess all lends itself to luck-based gameplay, since like you said, scouting is so tough to do in the first place. Don't get too hasty, because what you described also applied to Brood War, which was an excellent RTS title. In that game though, scouting and adapting, macro, micro and everything else was difficult and affected the outcome of the game.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


gs	Jul 17 2011, 07:12 PM Post #44
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	in brood war it also made a difference if you outmicroed/macroed your opponent which negates the luck factor somewhat, and most importantly all ins were much weaker in that game because everyone knew exactly how to defend them. also, it took some skill in bw but it was possible to keep a scouting worker alive for a very long time and get lots of information unlike in sc2.



Big Richard	Jul 17 2011, 07:30 PM Post #45
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	it makes a huge difference if you outmicro/macro your opponent in sc2 as well. My army of stalkers can kill 2 armies by itself because I can effectively blink my weakest stalkers to the back of the line. What kind of all-in is in capable of being blocked in sc2? Also if your opponent knows exactly what you're doing while, lets say, your scout died.. how is that fair? Besides if you scout early enough you get a lot of vital info which you can use to determine what they're possibly doing. For example: the timing of their gas (if at all), how many barracks, fast expanding or not, which particular buildings are being built and in what order, early barracks/spawn pool, and no buildings at all (cheese). If you send a scout and they have a stalker out then you're scouting way too late with a probe. you can always send in an actual unit like rine or zealot to poke around and see what they have until you can get observer or such



gs	Jul 17 2011, 07:38 PM Post #46
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	rich you don't know anything about sc2 you can't make this kind of judgment. on a top level the macro/micro is so easy with a few micro-heavy exceptions that it's impossible to make a difference in these aspects and you basically can only win by doing the better build/making the better combo which is mostly a coin flip. the only MU that takes actual skill is tvt.



Big Richard	Jul 17 2011, 09:22 PM Post #47
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	you didnt answer my question though besides what is different in sc2 than sc1 that makes macro/micro "harder" at top level?



Jack the IV	Jul 17 2011, 09:36 PM Post #48
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	Reavers.
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


gs	Jul 17 2011, 09:54 PM Post #49
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	Big Richard Jul 17 2011, 09:22 PM you didnt answer my question though besides what is different in sc2 than sc1 that makes macro/micro "harder" at top level? you shouldn't be arguing about something you don't know anything about :s max 12 unit ctrl groups, pathing, no attack move, waypoints to minerals don't work, grouping 4 rax then spamming a 4 times will create 4 marines in 1 of the rax instead of 1 marine in each rax, etc. list goes on and on. sc2 is a dumbed down version of bw. as for your question, i never said all ins couldn't be blocked, i said the game allows them to happen. this isn't because they're unstoppable but because scouting is impossible and because there are so many possible all ins. if you don't scout you in theory have to prepare for all of them in which case any 1 of them will kill you because you wasted money on protection you didn't end up needing. you playing the game now tho? talk to me on msn if you wanna play



Big Richard	Jul 18 2011, 02:55 AM Post #50
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	gs Jul 17 2011, 09:54 PM Big Richard Jul 17 2011, 09:22 PM you didnt answer my question though besides what is different in sc2 than sc1 that makes macro/micro "harder" at top level? you shouldn't be arguing about something you don't know anything about :s max 12 unit ctrl groups, pathing, no attack move, waypoints to minerals don't work, grouping 4 rax then spamming a 4 times will create 4 marines in 1 of the rax instead of 1 marine in each rax, etc. list goes on and on. sc2 is a dumbed down version of bw. as for your question, i never said all ins couldn't be blocked, i said the game allows them to happen. this isn't because they're unstoppable but because scouting is impossible and because there are so many possible all ins. if you don't scout you in theory have to prepare for all of them in which case any 1 of them will kill you because you wasted money on protection you didn't end up needing. you playing the game now tho? talk to me on msn if you wanna play all those are improvements rather than "dumbing down" the game. I don't like when people complain a game takes less skill when all the game designers did was to remove unnecessary complications. No attack move sounds horrible any RTS game has attack move except for old ones and moving your army across a map being conscious of attackers doesn't take skill, its when the actual confrontation happens is where skill matters for micro, but like I said even AoE3 has attack move and you didn't seem to mind then. What do you mean waypoints to minerals don't work? You mean you have to select newly built workers and manually click to mine minerals? If so, that doesn't take skill thats an example of an unnecessary complication. Grouping thing is an improvement and the only reason BW didn't have it was probably because the developers fucked up, it doesn't take any more skill to go back to your base and click each barracks individually and spam A 4 times, its another unnecessary complication. If you ask me, BW is a dumbed down version of sc2. Because none of those differences take skill, it just wastes time. They made playing the game easier but winning the battles/skirmishes/game takes equal amount of skill if you ask me. And by harder in my last post I meant taking more skill. I really think you exaggerate when you say it is impossible to scout. I watch casters talking over pro match rec's and you always hear them say "ohh and it looks like he saw the dark shrine and is now going to be making etc" or "he sees the late extractor and is expecting a rush" etc and I took your advice of playing P instead of T and I've gotten so much better, went from being a gold/silver league player to plat and if I played more I could get diamond



Incog	Jul 18 2011, 07:41 AM Post #51
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	gs Jul 17 2011, 09:54 PM Big Richard Jul 17 2011, 09:22 PM you didnt answer my question though besides what is different in sc2 than sc1 that makes macro/micro "harder" at top level? you shouldn't be arguing about something you don't know anything about :s max 12 unit ctrl groups, pathing, no attack move, waypoints to minerals don't work, grouping 4 rax then spamming a 4 times will create 4 marines in 1 of the rax instead of 1 marine in each rax, etc. list goes on and on. sc2 is a dumbed down version of bw. Attack move does exist in BW, you're mixing it up with AoC. But you can't select more than one building at a time, you have manually (because again there are not hotkeys) select each building and make a unit. To do that efficiently it's best to use those tabs that bring your view to a certain spot on the map and spam click. It's not that hard but it takes APM and speed. What you're describing gs is, I'm quite sure, how AoC buildings work (again, silly). Something you didn't mention was SC2's smart casting. If in BW you had 5 Templar selected and stormed somewhere, you'd get 5 storms at the exact same spot. You had to manually click the Templar and then hit the spot you wanted stormed. Though I believe in SC2 this is somewhat of an improvement.. Quote: as for your question, i never said all ins couldn't be blocked, i said the game allows them to happen. this isn't because they're unstoppable but because scouting is impossible and because there are so many possible all ins. if you don't scout you in theory have to prepare for all of them in which case any 1 of them will kill you because you wasted money on protection you didn't end up needing. This is totally true. Edited by Incog, Jul 18 2011, 07:43 AM.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Incog	Jul 18 2011, 07:57 AM Post #52
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Quote: What do you mean waypoints to minerals don't work? You mean you have to select newly built workers and manually click to mine minerals? If so, that doesn't take skill thats an example of an unnecessary complication. Grouping thing is an improvement and the only reason BW didn't have it was probably because the developers fucked up, it doesn't take any more skill to go back to your base and click each barracks individually and spam A 4 times, its another unnecessary complication. If you ask me, BW is a dumbed down version of sc2. Because none of those differences take skill, it just wastes time. They made playing the game easier but winning the battles/skirmishes/game takes equal amount of skill if you ask me. And by harder in my last post I meant taking more skill. I really think you exaggerate when you say it is impossible to scout. I watch casters talking over pro match rec's and you always hear them say "ohh and it looks like he saw the dark shrine and is now going to be making etc" or "he sees the late extractor and is expecting a rush" etc and I took your advice of playing P instead of T and I've gotten so much better, went from being a gold/silver league player to plat and if I played more I could get diamond It takes APM and attention from the player to remember to rally a worker to minerals every 17 seconds, even more when you had more than one base being saturated. Doing that while also fighting, raiding and macro'ing takes speed and attention. That's why faster BW players were rewarded with being more on top of things. Speed matters in BW, it doesn't in SC2. Making the game that much more competitive. Making the game that much more better. It actually does take skill to macro in BW. Rallying workers and making units takes speed, macro'ing while raiding, fighting or scouting takes multi-tasking. Fights themselves aren't even simple A-moves, there's things like positioning lurkers, tanks or dragoons, micro'ing the shuttle/reaver combo, spreading marines... the list goes on. That's because the unit's AI are retarded and units that are manually micro'd will beat units that are being a-moved. This was the case in TAD and it should be the case in any RTS game. It's kind of the case in SC2 but not really. Aside from making a nice arc and repositioning units that aren't firing, there isn't a lot of micro to make a difference in SC2, aside from a few complicated situations like blink vs blink or something. Also the scouting problem is early game only. Once P gets observers, Z speedlords and T any flying unit then scouting becomes really no problem at all. The thing is to get to those units takes time. By the time you get your effective scouting units your opponent's potential all-in has already struck or will strike in the next 30s or something, making it too late to scout and prepare. Early game you can barely tell anything from your initial scout. Gas and pool/rax/gate timings is about all you can get. Maybe worker count. That alone isn't enough to be quite sure of what your opponent is up to. Ie, it's a problem.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Incog	Jul 18 2011, 08:01 AM Post #53
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Man this thread is killing me I want to play a nice Aoe game. WITHOUT snare. WITHOUT gear. WITHOUT weird payment methods. I have so many ideas to make a really good RTS.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Ichigo1uk	Jul 18 2011, 10:41 AM Post #54
Huh? Posts: 9,838 Group: A414A Member Member #10 Joined: December 14, 2007	Pokemon has no luck factor, best RTS evar.
	Incog Jan 19 2012, 05:34 PM I think unicorns have a higher chance of existing than gods do. I mean, if a mare fell into the ocean and a narwhal raped it, then the mare might just give birth to a unicorn.


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Jul 18 2011, 12:34 PM Post #55
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Incog Jul 18 2011, 08:01 AM Man this thread is killing me I want to play a nice Aoe game. WITHOUT snare. WITHOUT gear. WITHOUT weird payment methods. I have so many ideas to make a really good RTS. If only there was a good, popular RTS.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


gs	Jul 18 2011, 01:09 PM Post #56
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	you could've argued they are improvements rich if sc2 didn't allow all ins in the way that it does. from the very start, the game has been dominated by all in strats. 4 gate, fast stargate, DT rush, 6 pool, roach ling, baneling bust, 3 rax, marauder hellion, thor rush, that's not even half of them and you'll see at least one of them in almost every top level best of 3 or higher. the fact that sc2 is a dumbed down version of bw wouldn't be so bad if all ins weren't viable and everything came down to harassment and macro games, but as is it's just too easy to turn it into a coin flip game if you're playing someone better than you and it would benefit you if the game came down to luck. the first time we played sc2 we were in platinum (there was no diamond yet) league within a day just because we knew how to 4 gate... it shouldn't work like that. sam even got to top 20 in the EU with only all in strats. he literally never had more than 2 bases. again, it shouldn't work like that. if you as game developer decide to make a game easy like they did sc2 you should at least make sure players are forced to play longer games where skill and strategy can still make a difference. i don't mind attack move at all, i never said i mind it. i just stated the things that make BW harder than most other RTS. apparently i mixed it up with aoc which is also a really great game, so bw does have attack move but to the point: making the game harder in basically any way one can think of will already make it better on a top level. not because these changes are necessary for the game to work, but because you want to reward skill. like incog said, in bw you have to be on top of things 24/7 because otherwise you're gonna miss a lot, and yeah the smart casting is also retarded. i literally am never impressed with top players when i watch GSL or whatever other tournament. i am however impressed 100% of the time when i watch BW vods. there is literally nothing i've seen an sc2 pro do that i can't do, and in bw they do shit like that every game. their micro is other worldly and i can't even imagine having to macro 20 buildings having to select each one individually, or casting storms having to select each templar individually. it's stuff like that that makes the game take way more skill and that allows for a solid and entertaining to watch competitive scene. players don't lose because they didn't scout an all in, they lose because they got outplayed. every game. that's why it's so fun to follow the bw scene: because your favourite player never gets knocked out because he had bad luck. that's also why you'll see the same 2 or 3 players on top of the bw scene at all times while in sc2 it's completely random. MVP won some stuff he didn't get worse he just got less lucky and now he's completely gone from the scene. huk is a terrible player and he's in code S and won dreamhack. shit like that shouldn't happen. difference between sc2 and aoe3 is that in aoe there is micro. the hard counter system forces very micro heavy fights. you see pros in sc2 just amove entire armies not caring about the positioning of each unit type, but that's not how it works in aoe because you're gonna get countered on all fronts. the micro is far move advanced, and don't even try to argue this because you haven't experienced it in either game. don't get me wrong i understand why a non competitive player would think these are improvements, because dumbing a game down is good for those who don't put as much time in it, but it's very bad for the competitive scene, and for anyone who wants to play a game where you will always win by skill and never by luck.



Ichigo1uk	Jul 18 2011, 07:31 PM Post #57
Huh? Posts: 9,838 Group: A414A Member Member #10 Joined: December 14, 2007	Jack the IV Jul 17 2011, 09:36 PM Reavers.
	Incog Jan 19 2012, 05:34 PM I think unicorns have a higher chance of existing than gods do. I mean, if a mare fell into the ocean and a narwhal raped it, then the mare might just give birth to a unicorn.


Big Richard	Jul 18 2011, 08:24 PM Post #58
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	incog you can still scout with your first zealot or marine or zergling and can get a lot of info early game. also i think micro is very, very important early game in sc2 and in some cases like when you bunker rush gs its all or nothing. Moving that marine and scv around effectively takes skill, same with trapping zerglings with probes to stop their rush or such things. Later in game, yeah I'll agree players usually just group their army and send it out, but there is still some positioning which will make a huge difference. Someone that takes the time to put tanks on a cliff and have a viking giving sight while holding off units at a ramp will easily wipe out someones huge army that they just bunched up. So sc2 has micro intensive potential, but just because the players don't take advantage of it, doesn't mean the game is bad. anyway like I was saying staying on top of things is still important in sc2 its just much more enhanced. If the developers really thought that clicking each individual unit/building was a good/intentional thing why would they have changed it? I feel that it is more of removing the distractions of the game, and allowing the player to better control his/her units and better manage his/her buildings. This way the elements of strategy in the game move on from how you build something or order an action, and begin to focus more on what you're building and how you are using your abilities like storm. I'll agree that AoE3 is a much more micro-intensive game but many of the complaints you have about sc2 are also in aoe3 like grouping buildings and spamming build buttons. So I'd say your only real complaint about sc2 is that you can't scout effectively, but like I said you can send in a few zealots or minor units to scout a base early on. The units you lose is minimal to the information you gain. And if they wall off by then you can combine info you got from your initial probe scout with what you saw when your units tried to scout and work with that. Most likely you will see the units he has when they kill your units trying to break their wall. So just because you see other games as better, that does not mean sc2 sucks. And your idea of a better game is debatable anyway. But w/e we'll just have to agree to disagree :P



gs	Jul 18 2011, 08:38 PM Post #59
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	like i already said 2 times, the fact that it's easier than bw would be fine by itself but because all ins are as viable as they are the game becomes too luck based to be a good competitive RTS. i never said anything about what the developers thought, obviously if they agreed with me they wouldn't have made the game like this. then again they may actually agree, but only made it so because they were targeting a bigger market. i can tell you as someone who has played both games at least semi-competitively that sc2 takes a considerable amount less skill to win at than aoe3 does. all ins will win you games even on a top level if you hide them well enough and this simply shouldn't be the case. you can say what you want and i'm sure nubs your level are perfectly happy with the game, but this does not take away the fact that half the games on a pro level are decided mostly by luck.



Big Richard	Jul 18 2011, 09:54 PM Post #60
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	I didn't say aoe3 took less skill than sc2, I said just because one game is better doesn't mean the other game is bad but w/e. can you show me a few pro sc2 recs where someone won just with dumb luck? I'm not doubting you, I just want to see examples.



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