Protect Your Rights

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Protect Your Rights
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 27 2011, 01:51 AM (1,932 Views)
DragonLegend	Aug 6 2011, 10:15 PM Post #61
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	You'll have to face the truth one day, Richard. You can't keep running. The truth will catch up with you sooner or later.



Jam	Aug 6 2011, 10:28 PM Post #62
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	What if he hides?
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Aug 6 2011, 10:48 PM Post #63
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	You can't. Sooner or later:



Jam	Aug 6 2011, 11:08 PM Post #64
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	He could hide in a bunker and make arguments using facts that do not exist.
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Aug 7 2011, 12:31 AM Post #65
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Bunkers can't keep the truth away.



Jam	Aug 7 2011, 02:43 AM Post #66
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	You call that a bunker?
	Long live Carolus


Big Richard	Aug 7 2011, 04:16 AM Post #67
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 6 2011, 11:08 PM make arguments using facts that do not exist. but thats dragon's job



Jam	Aug 7 2011, 04:37 AM Post #68
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
	Long live Carolus


Big Richard	Aug 7 2011, 04:45 AM Post #69
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 7 2011, 04:37 AM Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. cant tell if you're serious



Jam	Aug 7 2011, 05:31 AM Post #70
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	You are not one of those who in expressing his opinions, confines himself to facts. When an honest man lies he may deceive those most close to him, but when a liar lies he tells the truth.
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Aug 7 2011, 06:38 AM Post #71
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 7 2011, 02:43 AM You call that a bunker? Give me a break; it was the only GIF-able video of a bunker buster bomb I could find.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 7 2011, 06:47 AM Post #72
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 7 2011, 05:31 AM You are not one of those who in expressing his opinions, confines himself to facts. When an honest man lies he may deceive those most close to him, but when a liar lies he tells the truth. I'm writing this down and cherishing it for ever.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


DragonLegend	Aug 7 2011, 07:08 AM Post #73
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	By the way, Richard, I didn't say I had no facts or sources. I said that whatever I say will simply start another long discussion, and I can't have that, since I'm leaving soon. If you're interested in the truth, you can do some research on 1) La Cabana - for examples of his barbarity and cowardice; 2) his Bolivia campaign - for a great example of what an inept failure he was; and 3) any quote of his you can find. Try Wikiquotes. I especially like what he said when the Bolivians captured him. Truly a brave, courageous man. On a related note, may I ask for the names of the 'documentaries' you claim to have seen? Che and The Motorcycle Diaries, I presume?



Big Richard	Aug 7 2011, 07:42 AM Post #74
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 7 2011, 07:08 AM By the way, Richard, I didn't say I had no facts or sources. I said that whatever I say will simply start another long discussion, and I can't have that, since I'm leaving soon. If you're interested in the truth, you can do some research on 1) La Cabana - for examples of his barbarity and cowardice; 2) his Bolivia campaign - for a great example of what an inept failure he was; and 3) any quote of his you can find. Try Wikiquotes. I especially like what he said when the Bolivians captured him. Truly a brave, courageous man. On a related note, may I ask for the names of the 'documentaries' you claim to have seen? Che and The Motorcycle Diaries, I presume? La cabana was just a military prison they used during the revolution to kill suspected informants and such. Its funny what words you choose to describe it "barbaric" and "cowardice" yet you would happily justify something like Guantanamo bay as necessary or something of the sort. Yes, Che did kill lots of people but not in the name of bloodshed, but for what he saw as the good of the revolution. His bolivia campaign failed 90% because of unexpected US intervention and 10% because of lack of support out of fear. "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward! You are only going to kill a man!" -Che as his executioner entered the room also from simple wikipedia search: "Guevara was tied up and taken to a dilapidated mud schoolhouse in the nearby village of La Higuera on the night of October 8. For the next half day, Guevara refused to be interrogated by Bolivian officers and would only speak quietly to Bolivian soldiers. One of those Bolivian soldiers, helicopter pilot Jaime Nino de Guzman, describes Che as looking "dreadful". According to Guzman, Guevara was shot through the right calf, his hair was matted with dirt, his clothes were shredded, and his feet were covered in rough leather sheaths. Despite his haggard appearance, he recounts that "Che held his head high, looked everyone straight in the eyes and asked only for something to smoke." De Guzman states that he "took pity" and gave him a small bag of tobacco for his pipe, with Guevara then smiling and thanking him.[187] Later on the night of October 8, Guevara, despite having his hands tied, kicked Bolivian Officer Espinosa into the wall, after the officer entered the schoolhouse in order to snatch Guevara's pipe from his mouth as a souvenir.[188] In another instance of defiance, Guevara spat in the face of Bolivian Rear Admiral Ugarteche shortly before his execution" yeah, what a coward... also, "The following morning on October 9, Guevara asked to see the "maestra" (school teacher) of the village, 22-year-old Julia Cortez. Cortez would later state that she found Guevara to be an "agreeable looking man with a soft and ironic glance" and that during their conversation she found herself "unable to look him in the eye", because his "gaze was unbearable, piercing, and so tranquil."[188] During their short conversation, Guevara pointed out to Cortez the poor condition of the schoolhouse, stating that it was "anti-pedagogical" to expect campesino students to be educated there, while "government officials drive Mercedes cars" ... declaring "that's what we are fighting against."" I don't know which quote you are talking about on wikiquotes but heres a "quote" from the website showing how biased films make anti-Che propaganda lies to make them look bad "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the pared�n [execution wall]. As quoted in The Cuban Revolution : Years of Promise (2005) by Teo A. Babun and Victor Andres Triay, p. 57, citing "Che Guevara: Assassin and Bumbler" by Humberto Fontova from Mensnewsdaily.com, 2 March 2004; Fontava does not identify a source for Guevara's statement" as for the documentaries I'll have to ask my dad tomorrow to remind me of the names because I watched them with him and can't recall their exact names. anyway dragon all I ask is a couple of links containing legitimate information against Che, not an argument with you. Thats it, just a simple set of links to your sources. There's thousands of books and movies based on Che's string of genius military victories during the Cuban revolution and examples of his great leadership. There's a mountain of factual information about Che out there and he's far from the man you seem to think he is. It would be much more difficult to find information against him thats factual than there is to do the opposite. So please, enlighten me thats all I ask. I'm not even doubting you I'm just curious.



DragonLegend	Aug 7 2011, 07:52 AM Post #75
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	I did give you facts. I gave you a truth map and sent you on your way. Either you've seen the truth and denied it, or you misread the map. I mean honestly, even reading the Wikipedia article would've been enough...



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 7 2011, 09:16 AM Post #76
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Leaving? Where are you going, Dragon? The army?
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


DragonLegend	Aug 7 2011, 05:11 PM Post #77
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	What? No. I'm just leaving this forum and a couple of others. I feel it's time to find a new forum.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 7 2011, 05:21 PM Post #78
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	I had never considered forums to be destinations of residence; I just stop by whenever bored and see if there's anything I might undertake to post about.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Aug 7 2011, 05:46 PM Post #79
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	interesting idea, to leave a forum you'll be back though. always do
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Big Richard	Aug 7 2011, 07:11 PM Post #80
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 7 2011, 07:52 AM I did give you facts. I gave you a truth map and sent you on your way. Either you've seen the truth and denied it, or you misread the map. I mean honestly, even reading the Wikipedia article would've been enough... truth map? You just told me to look things up I already knew about like La Cabana lol I'm not denying anything.You also said he failed in Bolivia because he is a failure which is not the case at all and exemplifies your ignorance, along with saying earlier that Batista was better for Cuba than Castro. I did read that wikipedia article too, its surprising that you would read through it and end up calling him an inept failure. I honestly think you're too biased to recognize him as a great revolutionary figure. By the way the two documentaries are called Che and the second one is the motorcycle diaries one. Che is the really informative one I suggest you watch it.



DragonLegend	Aug 7 2011, 08:19 PM Post #81
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Never mind, Richard. Never mind...



Big Richard	Aug 7 2011, 08:43 PM Post #82
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	there you go again running away from the truth



Jam	Aug 7 2011, 09:14 PM Post #83
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	You accuse others of running from the truth, but the truth runs from you, Richard; for fear of mutilation.
	Long live Carolus


Big Richard	Aug 8 2011, 01:12 AM Post #84
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 7 2011, 09:14 PM You accuse others of running from the truth, but the truth runs from you, Richard; for fear of mutilation. you keep saying shit like that but neither you nor dragon can show me facts that prove me otherwise. Please show me facts that justify the claim that cuba was better under Batista than Castro. Please show me the facts that justify the claim that Che was an inept coward. Edited by Big Richard, Aug 8 2011, 01:13 AM.



DragonLegend	Aug 8 2011, 02:03 AM Post #85
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Big Richard Aug 7 2011, 08:43 PM there you go again running away from the truth No, bud. Read my posts if you want to know why I can't get into a discussion with you at the moment. I know reading is hard, but damn it, try! The truth is out there! I'll even give you a hint: it's hiding in plain sight in posts #46, #50, #52, and #73.



Big Richard	Aug 8 2011, 02:33 AM Post #86
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 4 2011, 05:56 PM Big Richard Aug 4 2011, 02:14 AM DragonLegend Aug 3 2011, 05:14 PM Big Richard Aug 3 2011, 04:19 AM Incog Aug 2 2011, 09:03 AM cuba must suck also what's the revolution guy tee shirt i keep seeing everywhere. it's a face of a guy with a beard, generally black on red, who's some cuban dude who's a revolutionary? enlighten me boys Ernesto "Che" Guevara he is one of the revolutionary heroes of the Cuban revolution which ousted Batista and the mafia along with him from Cuba. Cuba went from a rich person's paradise to a place Cubans can call home. Also Dragon I said "cuba?" because I want to know your source to back up your statement. Also can I see the source you have for those funny stories about Che? What statement? I don't know what you're referring to, exactly, but search engines are your friends. your statement that Cuba has corrupt policemen as do other countries like Syria. And your source for reading the funny stories about Che. and jack, Cubans come to the US probably for better opportunity, but that doesn't mean Cuba isn't better for Cubans than when Batista and the mafia were in power. People come from Canada to the US as well as thousands of different places.. doesn't mean they can't consider their country livable, its simply because the US has a higher standard of living. Sadly, anything I say will simply spark another days-long discussion, and I don't have time for that, since I'll be leaving soon. If you're truly interested, though, do some research on Che's Bolivian campaign, what he said when he was captured, and how he actually actually killed the people he killed (hint: it wasn't during battle). Che's bolivian campaign failed because of US intervention and lack of support. Are you talking about this quote ""I'm Che! I'm worth more to you alive than dead!�" ? If you are I can already tell you're just another one of those crazy, brainwashed imbeciles like the ones on this website where I found the quote: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/che-ernesto-guevara-did-not-fight-for-freedom-i-was-wrong/question-1470349/?page=2 you're also probably talking about one of his many executions like the famous one: The situation was uncomfortable for the people and for [Eutimio], so I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal [lobe]. He gasped for a little while and was dead. Upon proceeding to remove his belongings I couldn't get off the watch tied by a chain to his belt, and then he told me in a steady voice farther away than fear: "Yank it off, boy, what does it matter." I did so and his possessions were now mine. ^ this is a quote most ignorant people use to justify their claims that he was a "murderous Marxist" (lmao). Please tell me is this one of the quotes you were talking about? If so I will stop replying to you because it would be the final nail in the coffin telling me that you know nothing even remotely close to the truth.



Big Richard	Aug 8 2011, 02:42 AM Post #87
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	by the way I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere. Jon Lee Anderson, author of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (1997), at "The Legacy of Che Guevara" at PBS Online Newshour Forum (20 November 1997)



DragonLegend	Aug 8 2011, 02:43 AM Post #88
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	I'm sorry if I somehow gave you the impression that I was ready to discuss this with you. I've said otherwise about half a dozen times now.



Jam	Aug 8 2011, 02:55 AM Post #89
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Big Richard Aug 8 2011, 01:12 AM Hyperactive Jam Aug 7 2011, 09:14 PM You accuse others of running from the truth, but the truth runs from you, Richard; for fear of mutilation. you keep saying shit like that but neither you nor dragon can show me facts that prove me otherwise. Please show me facts that justify the claim that cuba was better under Batista than Castro. Please show me the facts that justify the claim that Che was an inept coward. The truth whispers naught to unclean ears.
	Long live Carolus


Big Richard	Aug 8 2011, 03:13 AM Post #90
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	and when confronted with facts, dragonlegend once again dodges the bullet. also why is it everytime I try to find something against Che Guevara all I find are articles or websites written by far-right extremists saying things like "ass hat liberals always defend marxists, they have no idea what they're talking about" or "che's last words were 'I am Che Guevara, and I have failed', what a coward!" as he died in battle, even though that has been repeatedly been proven to not have been the case. Or they say he is a mass murderer for having the 200+ war criminals who killed 20,000+ Cubans for Batista shot against a wall and point to that as saying he is against free elections, free speech and other such nonsense. Really the only thing people on the right have against Guevara and (is largely based on a small sliver of truth and exaggerated to a whole new extent, going so far as to say that he tortured and massacred gays at La Cabana which is not supported by any sound evidence) is that he was homophobic just like Castro in his early years. However, homophobia is common in Latin America at the time. However, just as Castro eased up on homosexuals, Guevara did as well. It doesn't justify his homophobia, but it certainly isn't enough to warrant all the exaggerated claims made of him, as doing so would be infantile. All it is is just groundless, right-wing propaganda as usual. Just like saying Amsterdam is running rampant with crime, just like saying the man responsible for the Norway attacks wasn't a Christian, just like saying Hugo Chavez is a brutal dictator, and the list can go on and on.



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