Protect Your Rights

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Protect Your Rights
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 27 2011, 01:51 AM (1,930 Views)
DragonLegend	Aug 10 2011, 09:57 AM Post #121
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	I was going to pull the dictionary card, since I know of no major dictionary that defines patriotism as blind nationalism, but I figured you deserved a better response than that. The article explains patriotism and how it's a good thing. But if you want to resort to dictionaries, fine by me. According to Merriam Webster, patriotism is "love for or devotion to one's country." That's not the same as chauvinism or nationalism.



Big Richard	Aug 10 2011, 12:09 PM Post #122
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	it didn't explain how patriotism is a good thing, it explained how we can make "ultra liberals" feel more patriotic by admiring achievements as well as faults..



MaxJ	Aug 10 2011, 01:47 PM Post #123
Wij van A414A adviseren A414A Posts: 9,339 Group: Moderator Member #58 Joined: April 21, 2008	Incog Aug 8 2011, 09:06 PM nice. i'm passing the theory for the driver's licence atm. it takes a lot of time to get it done though. Nice, do you also have a practical exam?
	Jouw wereld, jouw A414A forum.


Jam	Aug 10 2011, 02:01 PM Post #124
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Aug 10 2011, 07:30 AM Nationalism is simply the notion of belonging to a nation - something that has scarcely existed for 200 years It was certainly rife in the first half of the 20th century.
	Long live Carolus


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 10 2011, 04:42 PM Post #125
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Nationalism was probably at its height during that period; and I perceive that it will decline in the approaching years, as such things as the internet and globalisation shall leave crestfallen the greater intensities of national identity. Quote: That's not the same as chauvinism or nationalism. Chauvinism is a concept of which I am fondly unaware, and I should very happily receive its definition. As to nationalism, Merriam Webster's definition is precisely consonant to what I have earlier described. Edited by The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom, Aug 10 2011, 04:46 PM.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Jack the IV	Aug 10 2011, 05:31 PM Post #126
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	There are more German flags flying in America than there are in Germany because it is illegal for Germans to fly their own flag.
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


DragonLegend	Aug 10 2011, 05:50 PM Post #127
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Aug 10 2011, 04:42 PM Nationalism was probably at its height during that period; and I perceive that it will decline in the approaching years, as such things as the internet and globalisation shall leave crestfallen the greater intensities of national identity. Chauvinism is a concept of which I am fondly unaware, and I should very happily receive its definition. As to nationalism, Merriam Webster's definition is precisely consonant to what I have earlier described. You have no evidence to support that claim. It's simply wishful thinking. There has actually been a noticeable rise in nationalism (as in a national identity, as opposed to internationalism) in the world recently. Quote: Chauvinism is a concept of which I am fondly unaware, and I should very happily receive its definition. As to nationalism, Merriam Webster's definition is precisely consonant to what I have earlier described. As I said, chauvinism/ultranationalism, not patriotism, is what you were describing in your posts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Ultranationalism Quote: Ultranationalism is a zealous nationalism that expresses extremist support for one's nationalist ideals. It is often characterized by authoritarianism, efforts toward reduction or stoppage of immigration, expulsion and or oppression of non-native populations within the nation or its territories, demagoguery of leadership, emotionalism, scapegoating outsiders in socioeconomic crisis, fomenting talk of presumed, real, or imagined enemies, predicating the existence of threats to the survival of the native, dominant or otherwise idealized national ethnicity or population group, instigation or extremist reaction to crack-down policies in law enforcement, efforts to limit international trade through tariffs, tight control over businesses and production, militarism, populism and propaganda. Prevelant ultranationalism typically leads to or is the result of conflict within a state, and or between states, and is identified as a condition of pre-war in national politics. In its extremist forms ultranationalism is characterized as a call to war against enemies of the nation/state, secession or, in the case of ethnocentrist ultranationalism, genocide. Fascism is a form of palingenetic ultranationalism that promotes "class collaboration" (as opposed to class war), a totalitarian state, and irredentism or expansionism to unify and allow the growth of a nation. Fascists sometimes promote ethnic or cultural nationalism. Fascism stresses the subservience of the individual to the state, and the need to absolute and unquestioned loyalty to a strong ruler. Now let's look at the definition of patriotism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriotism Quote: love for or devotion to one's country Do you recognize that there's a difference between "I love my country" and "I hate all other countries"?



DragonLegend	Aug 10 2011, 05:58 PM Post #128
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Jack the IV Aug 10 2011, 05:31 PM There are more German flags flying in America than there are in Germany because it is illegal for Germans to fly their own flag. Militant pacifism. It's terrifying.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 10 2011, 06:15 PM Post #129
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Well now I've quite a clear impression as to what chauvism resembles, and can observe that there a number of occasions in which I have seen it. I therefore agree that it is chauvism described in my posts; but my first post also described, in first and last paragraph, the, "Love for or devotion," to which your dictionary source refers. Quote: You have no evidence to support that claim. It's simply wishful thinking. There has actually been a noticeable rise in nationalism (as in a national identity, as opposed to internationalism) in the world recently. It is less of a substantiated claim, though, more than it is a calculated conjecture. You are eminently right in speaking of the noticeable rise in nationalism; I will not pretend to be blind to the uprisings of the very region of the world in which I live; but I find it difficult to apprehend that national identity can actually intensify when decreasing costs of travel and, consequently, those of emigration make it very much easier for families and individuals to move between countries; when such entities as the internet unite the human race, and vanquish the chasms of distance that would otherwise separate our kind; and when there are less and less people perceiving, "Common enemies," that exist as a purpose for fraternity and the like. You must understand that, throughout history, Britain, for example, was frequently in conflict against the French, and the two countries shared an enmity for quite a while - it did not stand to reason for the two to be in harmony when this rivalry perseveres to football festivals even to this day. But it was at that time when the British were very willing to take up arms against the French if it was their King's request to do so; nowadays, it is impossible to imagine such a thing happening unless the French themselves were being exceedingly belligerent. Perhaps it is a bit of a wish of mine for humanity to become more closely knit; but when you perceive that nations are not receding into an unalterable recluse, but are in fact expanding their business, their culture, and their people globally, it seems less of an unwonted supposition than it would be a sensible guess.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Aug 10 2011, 06:36 PM Post #130
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	MaxJ Aug 10 2011, 01:47 PM Incog Aug 8 2011, 09:06 PM nice. i'm passing the theory for the driver's licence atm. it takes a lot of time to get it done though. Nice, do you also have a practical exam? i only start practical lessons after passing the theory, which won't come for a few months 'id expect. shit's painfully slow
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


DragonLegend	Aug 10 2011, 07:12 PM Post #131
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Aug 10 2011, 06:15 PM I therefore agree that it is chauvism described in my posts; but my first post also described, in first and last paragraph, the, "Love for or devotion," to which your dictionary source refers. Still ultranationalism, not patriotism. Quote: It is less of a substantiated claim, though, more than it is a calculated conjecture. You are eminently right in speaking of the noticeable rise in nationalism; I will not pretend to be blind to the uprisings of the very region of the world in which I live; but I find it difficult to apprehend that national identity can actually intensify when decreasing costs of travel and, consequently, those of emigration make it very much easier for families and individuals to move between countries; when such entities as the internet unite the human race, and vanquish the chasms of distance that would otherwise separate our kind; and when there are less and less people perceiving, "Common enemies," that exist as a purpose for fraternity and the like. This is based on a false premise. You're assuming that location is what creates a national identity. Regardless of how connected people become, national identity will still exist, because a national identity is formed by shared values. See people like Richard. Most likely born and raised in America, yet he shares none of the values of Americans, therefore he has no sense of loyalty toward America. Quote: You must understand that, throughout history, Britain, for example, was frequently in conflict against the French, and the two countries shared an enmity for quite a while - it did not stand to reason for the two to be in harmony when this rivalry perseveres to football festivals even to this day. But it was at that time when the British were very willing to take up arms against the French if it was their King's request to do so; nowadays, it is impossible to imagine such a thing happening unless the French themselves were being exceedingly belligerent. Perhaps it is a bit of a wish of mine for humanity to become more closely knit; but when you perceive that nations are not receding into an unalterable recluse, but are in fact expanding their business, their culture, and their people globally, it seems less of an unwonted supposition than it would be a sensible guess. France and Britain were enemies because their interests were diametrically opposite. Now they're no longer enemies, because they're cultural allies and have shared political interests. If there are no shared values or political interests between, say, Israel and Syria, they will continue to be enemies, and that is something time can't change. Unless you know the world population will one day share the same values and interests, you can't assume it will somehow unite.



MaxJ	Aug 10 2011, 08:09 PM Post #132
Wij van A414A adviseren A414A Posts: 9,339 Group: Moderator Member #58 Joined: April 21, 2008	Incog Aug 10 2011, 06:36 PM MaxJ Aug 10 2011, 01:47 PM Incog Aug 8 2011, 09:06 PM nice. i'm passing the theory for the driver's licence atm. it takes a lot of time to get it done though. Nice, do you also have a practical exam? i only start practical lessons after passing the theory, which won't come for a few months 'id expect. shit's painfully slow Can't be that hard if you can fly a plane haha.
	Jouw wereld, jouw A414A forum.


Incog	Aug 10 2011, 11:35 PM Post #133
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	i've been told that. i'm apparently suppose to rape the test like no other but i don't believe that >:(
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Jam	Aug 11 2011, 12:36 AM Post #134
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 10 2011, 05:58 PM Jack the IV Aug 10 2011, 05:31 PM There are more German flags flying in America than there are in Germany because it is illegal for Germans to fly their own flag. Militant pacifism. It's terrifying. Not flying a flag is hardly pacifism. Also it isn't illegal to fly the German flag in Germany, it's illegal to fly the Nazi flag or other Nazi symbols. A brief glance at German history is enough to understand why they would have a general aversion to nationalism.
	Long live Carolus


Jack the IV	Aug 11 2011, 01:59 AM Post #135
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	Oh I guess the foreign exchange student chose the wrong word then. It's not illegal, they just don't fly it. http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,411948,00.html Over six decades after the end of World War II, Germans still have a pathological fear of patriotism. Flying the flag is still a faux pas.
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


DragonLegend	Aug 11 2011, 07:38 PM Post #136
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 11 2011, 12:36 AM DragonLegend Aug 10 2011, 05:58 PM Jack the IV Aug 10 2011, 05:31 PM There are more German flags flying in America than there are in Germany because it is illegal for Germans to fly their own flag. Militant pacifism. It's terrifying. Not flying a flag is hardly pacifism. Also it isn't illegal to fly the German flag in Germany, it's illegal to fly the Nazi flag or other Nazi symbols. A brief glance at German history is enough to understand why they would have a general aversion to nationalism. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,761077,00.html A Hamburg judge has filed a criminal complaint against Chancellor Angela Merkel for "endorsing a crime" after she stated she was "glad" that Osama bin Laden was killed by US forces. Meanwhile a new poll reveals that a majority of Germans do not see the terrorist's death as a reason to celebrate. That's messed up.



Jam	Aug 11 2011, 09:27 PM Post #137
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	Attention seeking judge (who doesn't have a real case)...check Partisan opportunism...check Culture that does not approve of celebrating death...check 5000+ soldiers in Afghanistan...check Germany is pacifist nation, got it.
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Aug 12 2011, 12:46 AM Post #138
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	There's a pretty big difference between celebrating death, and being glad that one of the worst terrorists and mass-murderers in the world is no longer able to hurt anyone. By your logic, 90% of Americans are some sort of death cultists. It's a mostly non-combat role, and the majority of Germans have disapproved of their country's military involvement from the start, I think.



Big Richard	Aug 12 2011, 02:06 AM Post #139
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	us has proven to be the biggest sponsor of terrorism when it favors them



Jam	Aug 12 2011, 02:43 AM Post #140
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 12 2011, 12:46 AM There's a pretty big difference between celebrating death, and being glad that one of the worst terrorists and mass-murderers in the world is no longer able to hurt anyone. By your logic, 90% of Americans are some sort of death cultists. It's a mostly non-combat role, and the majority of Germans have disapproved of their country's military involvement from the start, I think. No, by your assumptions of logic I never presented. People misinterpreted Merkel. You said that illegal flag flying is pacifistic, there's the non sequiter.
	Long live Carolus


Incog	Aug 12 2011, 07:07 AM Post #141
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Imo celebrating the death of anyone is barbaric. Sure, justice may have struck down on the poor fool, I don't see why anyone should celebrate Laden's downfall, regardless of crimes committed.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 12 2011, 07:21 AM Post #142
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	People have celebrated Hitler's death day for longer than they have his birthday.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Aug 12 2011, 07:40 AM Post #143
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	i believe they celebrated the end of a long and bloody war, i may be mistaken though
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 12 2011, 07:50 AM Post #144
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Sorry, I meant it the other way around! :x
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


DragonLegend	Aug 12 2011, 08:13 AM Post #145
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Hyperactive Jam Aug 12 2011, 02:43 AM DragonLegend Aug 12 2011, 12:46 AM There's a pretty big difference between celebrating death, and being glad that one of the worst terrorists and mass-murderers in the world is no longer able to hurt anyone. By your logic, 90% of Americans are some sort of death cultists. It's a mostly non-combat role, and the majority of Germans have disapproved of their country's military involvement from the start, I think. No, by your assumptions of logic I never presented. People misinterpreted Merkel. You said that illegal flag flying is pacifistic, there's the non sequiter. I didn't say not waving the flag was pacifism. I was talking about German society. Merkel has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is (pay attention, Incog): an evil, dangerous man is no longer in this world. There are three possible reactions to this. 1) Glad that the free world and innocent people in general can't be harmed by Bin Laden anymore. 2) Indifferent (high, unaware of terrorism or world politics, emotionally damaged, or too self-centered to care about anything in the world). 3) Grief. Pick one.



Big Richard	Aug 12 2011, 08:20 AM Post #146
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



DragonLegend	Aug 12 2011, 08:41 AM Post #147
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Big Richard Aug 12 2011, 08:20 AM one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Isaiah 5:20 - Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.



gs	Aug 12 2011, 09:25 AM Post #148
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	not even close to relevant. he didn't call anything good or bad



DragonLegend	Aug 12 2011, 09:30 AM Post #149
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	The quote is a response/reference to Richard's moral blindness/confusion/relativism.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 12 2011, 04:16 PM Post #150
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Dragon, I can infer from your quoting of the Bible that you are a Methodist. For that reason, I no longer perceive your arguments to be credible, for the Methodists have long been known of their strategy for manipulating facts in such a way that glamourises God and religion; an anxious endeavour to convert to their cause the sightless masses.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


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