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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 13 2011, 02:59 AM (3,642 Views) | |
| Big Richard | Aug 20 2011, 05:51 PM Post #151 |
Gay People Read This.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14591472 |
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| Jack the IV | Aug 20 2011, 06:03 PM Post #152 |
The Gent's Club
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If you could go buy heroin in a shop, there would be a lot more users. Yes, it being an illegal substance and it being hard to get dissuades many people. If you were 18 and you could go get it, you could buy it for underagers, just like they do for alcohol and cigs. Instead of drinking at high school parties, they'll be shooting heroin and snorting coke. |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | Aug 20 2011, 06:24 PM Post #153 |
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Fuck, you win this time Walmart. |
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| Vondongo | Aug 20 2011, 06:56 PM Post #154 |
Moo.
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And so how is that the responsibility of the government to tell people what they can and can't be doing at parties? You can go buy cigarettes in a shop, and cigarettes are engineered to be addictive, but there's not many users like there used to be. Know why? Because people who turn smoking into a habit die, that's why. Same goes for drug users. People who use hard drugs are at a much higher risk of dying than smokers, and they get weeded out much easier, and in turn get replaced by people who don't want the same thing to happen to themselves and they don't use drugs like the previous generation. And honestly, if they want to do drugs and die, that's their problem, not mine. Why should we pass a law that tells people they shouldn't be doing what they want to do with their own bodies on their own time? They're not hurting me, they're hurting themselves, and that's not my business. Besides, like I said, if someone wants to get heroin and use it, they're going to get it on their own time and there isn't a damn thing I can do to stop them. |
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| Big Richard | Aug 20 2011, 07:10 PM Post #155 |
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Gay People Read This.
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Who said just because its legalized that they would have it so easily dispensed? I feel they would treat it more like pharmaceuticals and have clinics because its definitely not about just buying the heroin its also the needle and place to do it. Underage kids also wouldn't be doing it as much because of the education I talked about, and also do you think there aren't kids doing what you just said now? It's a far better idea to get criminals off the streets and making the city safer by legalizing all drugs. Even the danger posed by drivers under the influence would be less of a risk than having gang fights for drug territory across the nation. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 20 2011, 08:01 PM Post #156 |
Major Bullshit
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Slippery slope. |
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| Vondongo | Aug 20 2011, 08:13 PM Post #157 |
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Moo.
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Just because it's a slippery slope doesn't mean it's wrong. Nothing's wrong just because it's a fallacy. ...on the other hand, I think he happens to be wrong anyway. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 20 2011, 08:26 PM Post #158 |
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Major Bullshit
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A fallacy doesn't mean you're wrong, it means there's a flaw in your logic. |
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| gs | Aug 20 2011, 08:31 PM Post #159 |
Slow down
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heroin is dangerously addictive that's the problem i have with it. there's a couple of people i know who want to try it, but they're all scared to because the sources are never trustworthy. if it's legal the sources would be trustworthy and these guys would probably be addicts already.. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 20 2011, 08:43 PM Post #160 |
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Major Bullshit
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I also know people who make bad decisions, so what? |
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| Vondongo | Aug 20 2011, 08:53 PM Post #161 |
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Moo.
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Yeah, but someone can use flawed logic and reach the right answer (though in a debate like this, a "right" answer isn't so concerete). Anyway Gs, if those people want to make bad decisions, why should the government be liable for it? |
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| gs | Aug 20 2011, 08:58 PM Post #162 |
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Slow down
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idk combined with how it can be used to poison people it just seems to me like it would be a bad idea. i guess this is a point where my relativism reaches a limit, i know it rationally makes sense to legalize everything but just like with guns i simply have a feeling it would do more harm than good. usually i'm not for protecting people from themselves but in some cases they need it. people are generally stupid, and if their parents raised them the wrong way or their youth was in any way not like it should've been then they need some protection. |
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| Ichigo1uk | Aug 20 2011, 09:34 PM Post #163 |
Huh?
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Pfft you lie, Canada has never made a bad decision in it's life... Oh Wait. 
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| Vondongo | Aug 20 2011, 09:57 PM Post #164 |
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Moo.
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My suggestion: stop thinking about policy based on feelings. |
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| gs | Aug 20 2011, 11:16 PM Post #165 |
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Slow down
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you're also reasoning based on how you feel it would turn out. no one has facts saying what would happen if heroin was legalized. for one it would make a lot of people think "it's legal, how bad can it be". i think it's in this case very naive to think heroin related crime being solved (or almost solved) would weigh up to the massive influx of heroin addicts. heroin is instant euphoria. anyone who is depressed or stressed, dumb (people are dumber than you might think), ignorant (almost everyone when it comes to heroin), or drunk on a party (who hasn't been) etc, might try heroin once and a large percentage of those will fuck up their lives because of it. people aren't always fit to make the right decision, some people never are. it's irresponsible to give them the option. |
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| Big Richard | Aug 20 2011, 11:22 PM Post #166 |
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Gay People Read This.
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a lot of what you just said is a result of people being dumb/ignorant on the dangers of the drug which is solved with a solid education which a lot of you guys keep ignoring and is a major part of it. You can't legalize it without also improving the education |
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| gs | Aug 20 2011, 11:32 PM Post #167 |
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Slow down
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rich, on cigarette packs it literally says "smoking will kill you". an insanely large amount of people still smokes. what good would it do to tell people heroin will kill them, especially when they're still kids and don't listen to their teachers at all when it comes to life lessons? |
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| Jack the IV | Aug 20 2011, 11:33 PM Post #168 |
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The Gent's Club
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The "education will solve it" is a total joke. I've went through countless health classes telling me the evils of alcohol and smoking, including other harmful drugs. People are still going to use it even if they're educated, sure it'll work on paper, but not in real life. "It'll keep money out of the hands of warlords, criminals, etc." Legalize child sex slaves too? There's a point where you have to say no, and with hard drugs like those, having them legal just isn't the right thing to do.Europe completely raped the east with opium, I don't see how the reintroduction of it is a good idea. |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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| Big Richard | Aug 21 2011, 12:10 AM Post #169 |
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Gay People Read This.
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thats because when its on the packs they're about to buy its already far too late to educate them and they're already addicted. Many people start smoking with a friend that already does. @ jack: your mistake is that education is not a joke, the education we have now is. What we have in our schools is not an objective and honest education. It is scare tactics, exaggerations, unfounded claims, and other such nonsense that don't give kids the answers they're looking for. When you ask someone how something tastes do you answer : oh it'll give you diarrhea and you'll bleed from the eyes so don't try it. ? Or do you answer: it tastes amazing but honestly looking at the effects you face afterwards and the damage it does to your body its not really worth it? Like I said before, kids hear all this bad shit about something like marijuana from parents and teachers but when they inevitably try it and find out its not nearly as bad.. they start to wonder what else they were lied to about and go on to try harder drugs. Kids lose trust in their teachers and parents when they know they're just trying to scare them out from doing something, as opposed to giving them an honest opinion and helpful advice. It has to do with kids and how they respond to authority at certain ages. Do you think telling a young kid "don't do that because I said so" will make the kid listen? The better choice would be to say "dont do that because it can do _______ and ______. Don't believe me? Listen to an actual addict.." |
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| Vondongo | Aug 21 2011, 12:21 AM Post #170 |
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Moo.
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Oh, I think people are plenty dumb. It's dangerous to take away from them the right to do what they want to do to themselves by force of law, because then you give a government precedent to restrict other things under the pretense that whatever it is they're banning, it's harmful (like people being MANDATED by law to have insurance, if you've heard of that debate over here). Precedent is extremely important in government policy. Give them precedent, you give them authority. Simple as that. People want to be dumbasses and use heroin? Let them. Then they die, and other people learn the lesson not to use heroin. This is exactly what happened with tobacco. People have been around tobacco long enough to see it for what it is: dangerous, disgusting, and overpriced. I don't know about over in the Netherlands, but in the United States, smoking is dying out, because all the people who wanted to do it are dead. If people keep killing themselves via heroin, that kind of person will disappear, and other people will be so mortified that they're not going to want to pay so dearly for a high. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 21 2011, 12:26 AM Post #171 |
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Major Bullshit
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The difference is child sex slavery violates children's rights. Whose rights are violated if people do drugs? Oh And education does work, just take a look at how dramatic the decrease was in smokers once they started educating people about the truth. People thought it was good for you thanks to surgeon general ads supporting it (lmao). Not that any of this really matters, it's not ethical to control what substances people consume. Seriously, none of your business. There's no such thing as a loving dictator. Don't make me drop a Benjamin on you and remind you that a society that sacrifices a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither and lose both. |
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| gs | Aug 21 2011, 12:29 AM Post #172 |
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Slow down
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red, you say if people want to be dumb and and use heroin let them, but people don't want to be dumb. they don't want to be ignorant, stressed, depressed, or whatever else makes them vulnerable and likely to make bad decisions. the majority of people experience a state like this at least once in their life and the danger is that once is enough. sal your extreme relativism is noted. i don't actually have a reply for you that addresses your arguments because you're right. where we disagree is that i do think sometimes people need protection against themselves. i know protecting people against themselves is another way of saying telling people what to do but this is a point at which i have to realise not all people are blessed with as sound a judgement as my own and some do actually need to be told what to do when it comes to this. slippery slope, i know. |
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| Vondongo | Aug 21 2011, 12:37 AM Post #173 |
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Moo.
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Maybe instead of doing heroin to fix their problems, they should find real solutions. If they don't realize that using a highly dangerous drug will only make their problems worse, then that's their fault, not mine. Why should the government tell me what I can and can't do because other people are stupid? If they don't want to do dumb shit, that's their obligation for their sake, and if they're foolish enough to do that? Let them die. |
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| Vondongo | Aug 21 2011, 12:39 AM Post #174 |
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Moo.
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And now we all get restrictions on what we can and can't do, because of other people. Other people being used as an excuse to devalue my own decision-making as a human being. |
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| gs | Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM Post #175 |
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Slow down
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well the law only applies to those who break it. anyway you're just saying the same as sal then? so we all realise legalizing heroin would kill more people than it would save, but you guys are saying this isn't worth violating people's liberty for. then i guess that's where we disagree. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM Post #176 |
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Major Bullshit
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It's a noble intention, but ultimately, freedom is more important. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 21 2011, 12:45 AM Post #177 |
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Major Bullshit
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Well actually we don't know that, since a lot of crime and death stems from heroin and other drugs being illegal. But yes, even if that were the case, then I believe liberty is more important. |
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| gs | Aug 21 2011, 12:47 AM Post #178 |
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Slow down
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yei have to say i'm not really 100% against. there's no knowing what will happen though and the risk seems big. |
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| Vondongo | Aug 21 2011, 12:50 AM Post #179 |
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Moo.
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How much damage is caused by crime? How many people have died in other countries where these drugs are produced? People who are terrified to walk the streets of the towns where they live? Look at Colombia or Mexico. These countries have seen thousands of lives poured into a conflict that threatens the stability of their countries. Whole expanses of land in Colombia are run by cartels. Cartels that make money from what? Drug dealers in America. Give drugs to companies that make it cheaper, and the cartels and drug dealers lose the essence that allows them to operate at the level that they do. They wilt, and crime drops. Or look at major cities here. Crime in urban areas (especially violent crime) is centered on the drug trade. Again, tied to cartels and dealers, and people fighting over smuggled goods. Legalize, and it stops. Most people who want to use heroin already do use it. It's not that hard to find. And even if more people do die from using heroin, consider this: Is it better to allow people to choose their own deaths, or pursue policies that have caused so many people to steal the lives of others? Personal freedom lay at the core. |
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| _Saladin_ | Aug 21 2011, 12:55 AM Post #180 |
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Major Bullshit
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I'm shocked that this point hasn't sunk in yet. You must have repeated this a dozen times now. |
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