Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 12:50 AM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM

well the law only applies to those who break it. anyway you're just saying the same as sal then?

so we all realise legalizing heroin would kill more people than it would save, but you guys are saying this isn't worth violating people's liberty for. then i guess that's where we disagree.

How much damage is caused by crime? How many people have died in other countries where these drugs are produced? People who are terrified to walk the streets of the towns where they live? Look at Colombia or Mexico. These countries have seen thousands of lives poured into a conflict that threatens the stability of their countries. Whole expanses of land in Colombia are run by cartels. Cartels that make money from what? Drug dealers in America. Give drugs to companies that make it cheaper, and the cartels and drug dealers lose the essence that allows them to operate at the level that they do. They wilt, and crime drops.

Or look at major cities here. Crime in urban areas (especially violent crime) is centered on the drug trade. Again, tied to cartels and dealers, and people fighting over smuggled goods. Legalize, and it stops.

Most people who want to use heroin already do use it. It's not that hard to find. And even if more people do die from using heroin, consider this:


Is it better to allow people to choose their own deaths, or pursue policies that have caused so many people to steal the lives of others? Personal freedom lay at the core.

gs

Aug 21 2011, 01:07 AM

Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 12:50 AM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM

well the law only applies to those who break it. anyway you're just saying the same as sal then?

so we all realise legalizing heroin would kill more people than it would save, but you guys are saying this isn't worth violating people's liberty for. then i guess that's where we disagree.

How much damage is caused by crime? How many people have died in other countries where these drugs are produced? People who are terrified to walk the streets of the towns where they live? Look at Colombia or Mexico. These countries have seen thousands of lives poured into a conflict that threatens the stability of their countries. Whole expanses of land in Colombia are run by cartels. Cartels that make money from what? Drug dealers in America. Give drugs to companies that make it cheaper, and the cartels and drug dealers lose the essence that allows them to operate at the level that they do. They wilt, and crime drops.

Or look at major cities here. Crime in urban areas (especially violent crime) is centered on the drug trade. Again, tied to cartels and dealers, and people fighting over smuggled goods. Legalize, and it stops.

Most people who want to use heroin already do use it. It's not that hard to find. And even if more people do die from using heroin, consider this:


Is it better to allow people to choose their own deaths, or pursue policies that have caused so many people to steal the lives of others? Personal freedom lay at the core.

i told you already, i just don't think heroin related crime stopping would weigh up to the huge influx of addicts, and that denying there would be a huge influx of addicts is naive. but you're free to disagree.

gs

Aug 21 2011, 01:07 AM

Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 12:50 AM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM

well the law only applies to those who break it. anyway you're just saying the same as sal then?

so we all realise legalizing heroin would kill more people than it would save, but you guys are saying this isn't worth violating people's liberty for. then i guess that's where we disagree.

How much damage is caused by crime? How many people have died in other countries where these drugs are produced? People who are terrified to walk the streets of the towns where they live? Look at Colombia or Mexico. These countries have seen thousands of lives poured into a conflict that threatens the stability of their countries. Whole expanses of land in Colombia are run by cartels. Cartels that make money from what? Drug dealers in America. Give drugs to companies that make it cheaper, and the cartels and drug dealers lose the essence that allows them to operate at the level that they do. They wilt, and crime drops.

Or look at major cities here. Crime in urban areas (especially violent crime) is centered on the drug trade. Again, tied to cartels and dealers, and people fighting over smuggled goods. Legalize, and it stops.

Most people who want to use heroin already do use it. It's not that hard to find. And even if more people do die from using heroin, consider this:


Is it better to allow people to choose their own deaths, or pursue policies that have caused so many people to steal the lives of others? Personal freedom lay at the core.

i told you already, i just don't think heroin related crime stopping would weigh up to the huge influx of addicts, and that denying there would be a huge influx of addicts is naive. but you're free to disagree.

Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 08:58 PM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 01:07 AM

Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 12:50 AM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM

well the law only applies to those who break it. anyway you're just saying the same as sal then?

so we all realise legalizing heroin would kill more people than it would save, but you guys are saying this isn't worth violating people's liberty for. then i guess that's where we disagree.

How much damage is caused by crime? How many people have died in other countries where these drugs are produced? People who are terrified to walk the streets of the towns where they live? Look at Colombia or Mexico. These countries have seen thousands of lives poured into a conflict that threatens the stability of their countries. Whole expanses of land in Colombia are run by cartels. Cartels that make money from what? Drug dealers in America. Give drugs to companies that make it cheaper, and the cartels and drug dealers lose the essence that allows them to operate at the level that they do. They wilt, and crime drops.

Or look at major cities here. Crime in urban areas (especially violent crime) is centered on the drug trade. Again, tied to cartels and dealers, and people fighting over smuggled goods. Legalize, and it stops.

Most people who want to use heroin already do use it. It's not that hard to find. And even if more people do die from using heroin, consider this:


Is it better to allow people to choose their own deaths, or pursue policies that have caused so many people to steal the lives of others? Personal freedom lay at the core.

i told you already, i just don't think heroin related crime stopping would weigh up to the huge influx of addicts, and that denying there would be a huge influx of addicts is naive. but you're free to disagree.

Naive? You're the one who's being naive if you don't think most people who want heroin can buy it. It's extremely easy to find not even within 15 minutes of my house.

Jack the IV

Aug 21 2011, 09:24 PM

Really? I don't hear much about it around here, so I'd guess the closest to easily attain it would be an hour and a half away. Then again, I don't live near any big cities. People do a lot of meth around here though, and that's some fucked up shit.

gs

Aug 21 2011, 09:36 PM

Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 08:58 PM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 01:07 AM

Redemption

Aug 21 2011, 12:50 AM

gs

Aug 21 2011, 12:43 AM

well the law only applies to those who break it. anyway you're just saying the same as sal then?

so we all realise legalizing heroin would kill more people than it would save, but you guys are saying this isn't worth violating people's liberty for. then i guess that's where we disagree.

How much damage is caused by crime? How many people have died in other countries where these drugs are produced? People who are terrified to walk the streets of the towns where they live? Look at Colombia or Mexico. These countries have seen thousands of lives poured into a conflict that threatens the stability of their countries. Whole expanses of land in Colombia are run by cartels. Cartels that make money from what? Drug dealers in America. Give drugs to companies that make it cheaper, and the cartels and drug dealers lose the essence that allows them to operate at the level that they do. They wilt, and crime drops.

Or look at major cities here. Crime in urban areas (especially violent crime) is centered on the drug trade. Again, tied to cartels and dealers, and people fighting over smuggled goods. Legalize, and it stops.

Most people who want to use heroin already do use it. It's not that hard to find. And even if more people do die from using heroin, consider this:


Is it better to allow people to choose their own deaths, or pursue policies that have caused so many people to steal the lives of others? Personal freedom lay at the core.

i told you already, i just don't think heroin related crime stopping would weigh up to the huge influx of addicts, and that denying there would be a huge influx of addicts is naive. but you're free to disagree.

Naive? You're the one who's being naive if you don't think most people who want heroin can buy it. It's extremely easy to find not even within 15 minutes of my house.

well, it would be a lot easier to get if it were legal. as is, people are always somewhat reluctant to break the law. besides that you'd have to know where to go and who to ask, you'd have to deal with some very shady people and you can't possibly know if what you buy is actually heroin. if it was legal, you'd walk into a shop and buy some that's all there is to it. of course if someone really wants it they will always find a way whether it's legal or not, but it's not those people i'm worried about (they're likely addicts already). it's the people who are depressed or drunk or whatever and it crosses their mind and they figure all they have to do is go to a shop buy some heroin and their troubles will go away, if only for a while.

gs

Aug 22 2011, 12:00 AM

sigh, that's not what this discussion is about any more. that goes way back, when i said some people need protection against themselves and you and sal disagreed saying it's their choice what they do with their lives. i know we disagree on that point there's no reason to repeat it.

what the discussion is about now is whether the solving of heroin related crime would weigh up against the influx of addicts purely deaths-wise. you argued that such an influx of addicts probably wouldn't be the case and i argued that's naive. what you're saying now is not relevant to this discussion but to the old one.

DragonLegend

Aug 22 2011, 05:48 PM

You can't prove that.

Incog

Aug 22 2011, 06:53 PM

I'm sure there's a difference between anecdotes and examples. In this case I'm actually certain that Red's experience with where he lives is more than sufficient as an example to prove what he says.

Incog

Aug 22 2011, 06:53 PM

I'm sure there's a difference between anecdotes and examples. In this case I'm actually certain that Red's experience with where he lives is more than sufficient as an example to prove what he says.

DragonLegend

Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM

Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this.

You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs?

gs

Aug 22 2011, 07:25 PM

Incog

Aug 22 2011, 06:53 PM

I'm sure there's a difference between anecdotes and examples. In this case I'm actually certain that Red's experience with where he lives is more than sufficient as an example to prove what he says.

red's experience doesn't apply to the rest of the world. baltimore is an exception, and by no means a representation of the world.

Redemption

Aug 22 2011, 07:28 PM

gs

Aug 22 2011, 07:25 PM

Incog

Aug 22 2011, 06:53 PM

I'm sure there's a difference between anecdotes and examples. In this case I'm actually certain that Red's experience with where he lives is more than sufficient as an example to prove what he says.

red's experience doesn't apply to the rest of the world. baltimore is an exception, and by no means a representation of the world.

So what are we supposed to do in Baltimore? Keep fighting the war on drugs that isn't working? You say we're an exception, but is the policy that we're stuck under any different from anyone else's?

Baltimore is proof that when the drug problem gets bad, fighting it with prohibitive laws and police searches and whatever else they throw out there just doesn't work.

gs

Aug 22 2011, 07:33 PM

Redemption

Aug 22 2011, 07:28 PM

gs

Aug 22 2011, 07:25 PM

Incog

Aug 22 2011, 06:53 PM

I'm sure there's a difference between anecdotes and examples. In this case I'm actually certain that Red's experience with where he lives is more than sufficient as an example to prove what he says.

red's experience doesn't apply to the rest of the world. baltimore is an exception, and by no means a representation of the world.

So what are we supposed to do in Baltimore? Keep fighting the war on drugs that isn't working? You say we're an exception, but is the policy that we're stuck under any different from anyone else's?

Baltimore is proof that when the drug problem gets bad, fighting it with prohibitive laws and police searches and whatever else they throw out there just doesn't work.

idk what you're supposed to do it's none of my business. i don't see how the entire world has to change the law just because baltimore has trouble following it.

Redemption

Aug 22 2011, 07:28 PM

gs

Aug 22 2011, 07:25 PM

Incog

Aug 22 2011, 06:53 PM

I'm sure there's a difference between anecdotes and examples. In this case I'm actually certain that Red's experience with where he lives is more than sufficient as an example to prove what he says.

red's experience doesn't apply to the rest of the world. baltimore is an exception, and by no means a representation of the world.

So what are we supposed to do in Baltimore? Keep fighting the war on drugs that isn't working? You say we're an exception, but is the policy that we're stuck under any different from anyone else's?

Baltimore is proof that when the drug problem gets bad, fighting it with prohibitive laws and police searches and whatever else they throw out there just doesn't work.

DragonLegend

Aug 22 2011, 07:04 PM

Also, Sal, your arguments here directly contradict your arguments in the incest thread.

Redemption

Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM

DragonLegend

Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM

Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this.

You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs?

Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them.

You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on.