incog

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incog
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 13 2011, 02:59 AM (3,639 Views)
_Saladin_	Aug 24 2011, 11:48 AM Post #211
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 24 2011, 01:18 AM Redemption Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM DragonLegend Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this. You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs? Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them. You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on. I'm talking about the entire country. How do you know everyone who wants to do drugs will? You don't, and can't. @ Sal: If you say so. But anyone with with a mind can tell "Freedom is more important, regardless of the consequences" and "Consenting adults should be banned from doing things that harm no one else, because I don't like it" sound rather antithetical. Yah they are. Nice straw man.



DragonLegend	Aug 24 2011, 11:58 AM Post #212
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	No, sir, no straw men here. Your words speak for themselves, I'd say.



_Saladin_	Aug 24 2011, 12:04 PM Post #213
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	Oh ok, you accidentally put consenting in there.



DragonLegend	Aug 24 2011, 12:11 PM Post #214
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	What is consent? Permission, approval. I'm fairly sure human beings are capable of accepting and declining things.



_Saladin_	Aug 24 2011, 12:14 PM Post #215
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	There are numerous precedents in the law where you can't give consent.



Incog	Aug 24 2011, 12:21 PM Post #216
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Can a baby give consent?
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


DragonLegend	Aug 24 2011, 01:00 PM Post #217
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	_Saladin_ Aug 24 2011, 12:14 PM There are numerous precedents in the law where you can't give consent. I just asked, "how can two sane, mentally super adults not be able to give consent to an act that causes no harm to anyone else, or even to them (non-morally)?"



_Saladin_	Aug 24 2011, 08:20 PM Post #218
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	Like so: "You can't legally consent to have sex with someone who is in a position of trust, power or authority over you, for example, a minister, coach, employer, teacher, police officer." http://www.sacc.to/sya/crime/law.htm This is our law, but I'm almost positive it's like that in the U.S. too. Edit: I don't think I have to say this, but just in case, it should be clear that a family member would obviously be part of that list. Edited by _Saladin_, Aug 24 2011, 08:26 PM.



DragonLegend	Aug 25 2011, 09:20 AM Post #219
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	So cops and holders of public office are prosecuted if they have sex with a normal civilian?



DragonLegend	Aug 25 2011, 09:47 AM Post #220
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	That's funny, I read that website's source for its claims (Canada's Department of Justice) and you know what I found out? The "position of trust or authority" bit is about young people or people with a physical or mental disability. In case you missed it, I said "sane, mentally-OK adults." Who says they can't give consent? By the way, a country's laws aren't scientific evidence.



Big Richard	Aug 25 2011, 02:52 PM Post #221
Gay People Read This. Posts: 5,323 Group: World's Finest Member #113 Joined: July 26, 2008	isnt he talking about young kids giving consent to their parents for sex?



_Saladin_	Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM Post #222
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	Quote: (2.2)�When the accused referred to in subsection (2.1) is five or more years older than the complainant, it is a defence that the complainant consented to the activity that forms the subject-matter of the charge if, on the day on which this subsection comes into force, (a)�the accused is the common-law partner of the complainant, or has been cohabiting with the complainant in a conjugal relationship for a period of less than one year and they have had or are expecting to have a child as a result of the relationship; and (b)�the accused is not in a position of trust or authority towards the complainant, is not a person with whom the complainant is in a relationship of dependency and is not in a relationship with the complainant that is exploitative of the complainant. It doesn't just apply to young people. You were wondering how adults can't consent. There it is. Science can't possibly prove any of this, so I don't know why you're invoking it. You asked for a precedent and I gave you one. Why is it hard to imagine incest as falling under this category?



Vondongo	Aug 25 2011, 06:45 PM Post #223
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	DragonLegend Aug 24 2011, 01:18 AM Redemption Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM DragonLegend Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this. You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs? Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them. You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on. I'm talking about the entire country. How do you know everyone who wants to do drugs will? You don't, and can't. And how do you know that everyone who wants to do drugs doesn't already? Like I said, what you're arguing goes both ways. I just happen to be the one here who has years of daily experience with this issue.



gs	Aug 25 2011, 06:51 PM Post #224
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	Redemption Aug 25 2011, 06:45 PM DragonLegend Aug 24 2011, 01:18 AM Redemption Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM DragonLegend Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this. You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs? Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them. You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on. I'm talking about the entire country. How do you know everyone who wants to do drugs will? You don't, and can't. And how do you know that everyone who wants to do drugs doesn't already? Like I said, what you're arguing goes both ways. I just happen to be the one here who has years of daily experience with this issue. you have experience with an exceptionally problematic environment. our experience counts just as much, if not more than yours because our enveronments are closer to the average. it's about how it affects the entire world, not just your city.



Vondongo	Aug 25 2011, 08:07 PM Post #225
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	gs Aug 25 2011, 06:51 PM Redemption Aug 25 2011, 06:45 PM DragonLegend Aug 24 2011, 01:18 AM Redemption Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM DragonLegend Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this. You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs? Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them. You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on. I'm talking about the entire country. How do you know everyone who wants to do drugs will? You don't, and can't. And how do you know that everyone who wants to do drugs doesn't already? Like I said, what you're arguing goes both ways. I just happen to be the one here who has years of daily experience with this issue. you have experience with an exceptionally problematic environment. our experience counts just as much, if not more than yours because our enveronments are closer to the average. it's about how it affects the entire world, not just your city. We're not talking about other countries' policy on this anymore, we're talking about the United States. This discussion has progressed. Yes, Baltimore is one of the visible instances of drug policy in this country gone wrong. But Baltimore is just an obvious example of a much larger issue going on within this country. Do you know how many densely-populated urban areas there are in the United States, and how Baltimore is just a tiny one of many? Those other cities have drug problems with the exact same format. They happen to not be as bad, but all of the same patterns are there: gangs, drug dealers on the streets, lack of fear in those purchasing drugs, an overtasked police force, slums that facilitate illegal trade. The degree of the problem is slighter in most other cities, but as bad as the problem in Baltimore is, that's not saying much. They have the same kind of problem we do and they have that for the same reasons. You know about the gang wars in California that rage on? Do you know what they fight over? Not gambling, not guns, not prostitution. Drugs. That's the reason. No drug trade means those gangs lose any purpose to exist and they fold. At the same time, their wars rage on because the cops could not possibly hope to ever catch and imprison all of them. They'll never succeed. As long as someone exists to ship in the drugs and someone exists to sell them, people will still be able to buy them, and people DO buy them. That's why the gangs have so much power. Could there be more people who want to buy drugs? I'm not saying there won't be, but there's already so many who have fueled the trade thereof. The number of new drug users will not be significant enough to justify continuing to allow this pointless drug war to go on, rather than just ending it and squeezing all the criminal organizations to death. That would help this country greatly. It would help the whole of Latin America, too, via allowing for new political stability since all the cartels are based out of those nations. How exactly would improved stability of the United States and Latin America not be beneficial to the world community? The rest of you countries don't have to legalize everything if you don't want to, but you don't have drug problems on the same scale or scope that the U.S. does. Why do I have to keep repeating myself? How many times do I have to point to the failure of Prohibition? Why is someone who lives on the other side of the world with little knowledge of the demographics or local political ramnifications of my environment telling me that his experience on this issue is likely to be superior to mine?



gs	Aug 25 2011, 08:26 PM Post #226
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	Redemption Aug 25 2011, 08:07 PM gs Aug 25 2011, 06:51 PM Redemption Aug 25 2011, 06:45 PM DragonLegend Aug 24 2011, 01:18 AM Redemption Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM DragonLegend Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this. You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs? Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them. You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on. I'm talking about the entire country. How do you know everyone who wants to do drugs will? You don't, and can't. And how do you know that everyone who wants to do drugs doesn't already? Like I said, what you're arguing goes both ways. I just happen to be the one here who has years of daily experience with this issue. you have experience with an exceptionally problematic environment. our experience counts just as much, if not more than yours because our enveronments are closer to the average. it's about how it affects the entire world, not just your city. We're not talking about other countries' policy on this anymore, we're talking about the United States. i didn't get that memo. it was clear to me that we disagreed at the core way earlier in this discussion. it was over 2 pages ago, since then neither of us said anything new. because of this i neglected to read the rest of your post.



Vondongo	Aug 25 2011, 08:48 PM Post #227
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	gs Aug 25 2011, 08:26 PM i didn't get that memo. it was clear to me that we disagreed at the core way earlier in this discussion. it was over 2 pages ago, since then neither of us said anything new. because of this i neglected to read the rest of your post. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tBqdKGiqnI



DragonLegend	Aug 25 2011, 08:59 PM Post #228
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Redemption Aug 25 2011, 06:45 PM DragonLegend Aug 24 2011, 01:18 AM Redemption Aug 22 2011, 07:27 PM DragonLegend Aug 22 2011, 06:46 PM Anecdotes aren't evidence. How in the world do you know that everyone or almost everyone who wants to use drugs will do it, regardless of the law or any other thing? I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know of any studies or surveys about this. You don't think the fact that drugs are illegal makes some people think twice before using drugs? Around here? Hell no. You could walk to the apartments down the road and buy a bag of weed if you wanted, and the cops wouldn't know about it. There are no official stats on this, but I see drug deals in broad daylight every day, in the vicinity between West Baltimore and where I live. Nobody who would actually want to do drugs cares about what the law says. They either buy and use the drugs because they want to, or don't do it because they have no desire to use them. You don't know of any studies or surveys on who buys drugs or doesn't because of, or in spite of, the law? Then how do you know that the laws are working at all? What you're saying works both ways. I just happen to have live experience of what goes on. I'm talking about the entire country. How do you know everyone who wants to do drugs will? You don't, and can't. And how do you know that everyone who wants to do drugs doesn't already? Like I said, what you're arguing goes both ways. I just happen to be the one here who has years of daily experience with this issue. I don't (although it makes sense that people would avoid doing things that could result in lengthy prison sentences or large fines. Not everyone in America is a careless drug addict with no regard for the consequences of their actions). But you said you know everyone who wants to do drugs will, as if drugs are perfectly legal and tolerated throughout the country. I respect your views, but your experience is limited to Baltimore and any other places you've been to. We're talking about the entire country. Baltimore is far from representative of most of America. There are other cities like it, but that doesn't mean they're representative of the country.



Vondongo	Aug 25 2011, 09:29 PM Post #229
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	Like I said in my response to GS, Baltimore is part of the bigger picture, and almost literally every major metropolitan area in this country has the same problem. Same patterns, same causes, and same symptoms.



SunnyDeeeee	Aug 25 2011, 10:15 PM Post #230
Lieutenant Posts: 253 Group: Member Member #210 Joined: January 7, 2010	o hai guise



Jack the IV	Aug 25 2011, 10:26 PM Post #231
The Gent's Club Posts: 7,869 Group: Mr. Pink Member #43 Joined: February 19, 2008	HAI MEN
	In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him.


SunnyDeeeee	Aug 26 2011, 02:23 AM Post #232
Lieutenant Posts: 253 Group: Member Member #210 Joined: January 7, 2010	omg sexy avatar



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Aug 26 2011, 07:34 AM Post #233
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	ye men ye
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Aug 26 2011, 05:31 PM Post #234
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	hey sunil what's up
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Jam	Aug 31 2011, 06:37 AM Post #235
Fruit Based Jam Posts: 7,945 Group: A414A Member Member #98 Joined: July 11, 2008	If you still believe that hard drugs should be legal, listen to this: Early one morning in Jericho Hill, while going through his daily routine, Willy Lee too a shot of cocaine and shot his wife dead. He then returned to his home, place the .44 calibre gun under his pillow and fell asleep. The next morning he awoke, grabbed his gun, took another shot of cocaine and make a break for the Mexican border. He managed to cross the border, but ultimately he was not fast enough and was captured in Juarez, Mexico. Later in the day the sheriff from Jericho Hill came to the jail and identified Willy Lee, who had lied to the Mexican police that his name was Jack Brown. Lee confessed that he had shot his wife because he found out that she had been cheating on him with at least five different men. Lee did not show remorse and seemed to boast about his actions. He was sent back to Jericho Hill by train and locked up in the county jail, he was in poor physical condition by that time. Lee had no friends who cared about him, and his family had long since disowned him due to his excessive drug use; thus he had no one to pay bail. The next morning the sheriff collected Lee from the prison to take him to the district court for his trial. It did not take long for the jury to find Lee guilty of murder in the first degree. When the verdict was read Lee hollered "Lawdy lawdy, have a mercy on me!", apparently showing regret for this crime. Lee was sentenced to 99 years in Folsom Prison. When asked what he had to say for himself, Lee said "I will never forget the day I shot my wife", and encouraged young people to "lay off that whiskey and let that concaine be".
	Long live Carolus


DragonLegend	Sep 3 2011, 09:02 AM Post #236
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Redemption Aug 25 2011, 09:29 PM Like I said in my response to GS, Baltimore is part of the bigger picture, and almost literally every major metropolitan area in this country has the same problem. Same patterns, same causes, and same symptoms. As I said, crime-infested cities don't make up the whole country. I hope you survived the non-apocalypse, by the way. Edited by DragonLegend, Sep 3 2011, 09:04 AM.



DragonLegend	Sep 3 2011, 10:00 AM Post #237
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	_Saladin_ Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM Quote: (2.2)�When the accused referred to in subsection (2.1) is five or more years older than the complainant, it is a defence that the complainant consented to the activity that forms the subject-matter of the charge if, on the day on which this subsection comes into force, (a)�the accused is the common-law partner of the complainant, or has been cohabiting with the complainant in a conjugal relationship for a period of less than one year and they have had or are expecting to have a child as a result of the relationship; and (b)�the accused is not in a position of trust or authority towards the complainant, is not a person with whom the complainant is in a relationship of dependency and is not in a relationship with the complainant that is exploitative of the complainant. It doesn't just apply to young people. You were wondering how adults can't consent. There it is. Science can't possibly prove any of this, so I don't know why you're invoking it. You asked for a precedent and I gave you one. Why is it hard to imagine incest as falling under this category? Dude, subsection (2.1) is about teenagers. I didn't ask for a precedent in the law. What would that prove? I can give you old laws against anal sex. That wouldn't mean it's scientific evidence anal sex is wrong. Just give me undeniable, scientific evidence that family members are incapable of giving consent. If you can't, then, as I said, you support violating people's rights based on your personal beliefs. Isn't that called 'legislating morality' or 'forcing unscientific beliefs on people" or something like that? Sounds eerily familiar...



_Saladin_	Sep 4 2011, 01:58 PM Post #238
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	DragonLegend Sep 3 2011, 10:00 AM _Saladin_ Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM Quote: (2.2)�When the accused referred to in subsection (2.1) is five or more years older than the complainant, it is a defence that the complainant consented to the activity that forms the subject-matter of the charge if, on the day on which this subsection comes into force, (a)�the accused is the common-law partner of the complainant, or has been cohabiting with the complainant in a conjugal relationship for a period of less than one year and they have had or are expecting to have a child as a result of the relationship; and (b)�the accused is not in a position of trust or authority towards the complainant, is not a person with whom the complainant is in a relationship of dependency and is not in a relationship with the complainant that is exploitative of the complainant. It doesn't just apply to young people. You were wondering how adults can't consent. There it is. Science can't possibly prove any of this, so I don't know why you're invoking it. You asked for a precedent and I gave you one. Why is it hard to imagine incest as falling under this category? Dude, subsection (2.1) is about teenagers. I didn't ask for a precedent in the law. What would that prove? I can give you old laws against anal sex. That wouldn't mean it's scientific evidence anal sex is wrong. Just give me undeniable, scientific evidence that family members are incapable of giving consent. If you can't, then, as I said, you support violating people's rights based on your personal beliefs. Isn't that called 'legislating morality' or 'forcing unscientific beliefs on people" or something like that? Sounds eerily familiar... It's not, I replied to this very point in the original thread, not gonna post about this in two different places.



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