Whats become of everyone?

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Whats become of everyone?; Curiosity and Nostalgia
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 14 2011, 08:47 PM (2,622 Views)
_Saladin_	Sep 4 2011, 02:06 PM Post #151
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	DragonLegend Sep 3 2011, 08:28 AM There is a moral system because the higher being says so. What?! How could you possibly know what the higher being has said? Have you ever met him? What if he's lying to you? What if it's not a god but powerful and intelligent enough to make you think it is? What if there are actually many gods and he's tricking you into thinking there's only him? What if he tells you to rape a 12 year old? Would you do it? I can probably think of a lot more possibilities but I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to get at.



gs	Sep 4 2011, 04:59 PM Post #152
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	if dragon's post was really in reply to either of us, i can only conclude that he lacks reason in this case and there is no point disucssing this with him. we're asking how he knows what the higher power said, how he knows that there even is a higher power, how he knows which higher power to follow, and his reply is "because the higher power said so!". seriously, what?



DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 05:21 PM Post #153
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	No. Morals are true and correct because the all-knowing (note: all-knowing) entity says they are. It's a belief. "What if it's lying?" is irrelevant. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, then nothing should be accepted as true, since it could be a lie or a figment of your imagination. That computer you're using? Purely your imagination. People say it exists? They're imagining it as well, or maybe they're lying. Now the computer is no different than supernatural beings.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Sep 4 2011, 05:22 PM Post #154
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Higher powers communicate through violent seizures and inexplicable dreams. Sounds rational.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 05:29 PM Post #155
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Sep 4 2011, 05:22 PM Higher powers communicate through violent seizures and inexplicable dreams. Among other things, sure. What's unbelievable about it?



Adams	Sep 4 2011, 05:38 PM Post #156
The Real Posts: 6,405 Group: A414A Member Member #2 Joined: December 12, 2007	Fuck up Dragon. You are the most boring person ever. All you do is argue



DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 05:49 PM Post #157
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	That's because everything I say here somehow turns into an argument. I don't pursue arguments, Adams. If you don't like it, you can scroll down or leave and listen to your terrible music or whatever floats your boat.



Adams	Sep 4 2011, 05:55 PM Post #158
The Real Posts: 6,405 Group: A414A Member Member #2 Joined: December 12, 2007	For a guy not pursuing them you get involved in a lot. At least my arguments are interesting. Id rather tug on my nuts than read the stuff your talking about. Believe me I will listen to my "terrible" music.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Sep 4 2011, 05:56 PM Post #159
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 05:49 PM That's because everything I say here somehow turns into an argument. I don't pursue arguments, Adams. If you don't like it, you can scroll down or leave and listen to your terrible music or whatever floats your boat. Yeah, it's not like you're provocative or anything.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


gs	Sep 4 2011, 05:58 PM Post #160
Slow down Posts: 16,297 Group: Animals Member #1 Joined: December 12, 2007	DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 05:21 PM No. Morals are true and correct because the all-knowing (note: all-knowing) entity says they are. It's a belief. "What if it's lying?" is irrelevant. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, then nothing should be accepted as true, since it could be a lie or a figment of your imagination. That computer you're using? Purely your imagination. People say it exists? They're imagining it as well, or maybe they're lying. Now the computer is no different than supernatural beings. the point here is that you're calling morals objective while they're entirely based on your beliefs. you can believe your morals are better than mine all you want, we all believe the morals we follow are better than everyone else's because otherwise we wouldn't be following them, but you're calling them objective which implies you have knowledge of some kind of objective truth supporting you. we're asking how you're so sure and you're unable to give us anything that isn't based purely on your personal beliefs.



DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 06:15 PM Post #161
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Adams Sep 4 2011, 05:55 PM For a guy not pursuing them you get involved in a lot. At least my arguments are interesting. Id rather tug on my nuts than read the stuff your talking about. Believe me I will listen to my "terrible" music. I don't like 'running away' from debates. I try to end ones I don't want to continue, but that usually takes a long time, to end a discussion without making someone feel like you were wasting their time. I know what it's like to spend a lot of time and effort making your case only to have the other guy never respond. I have a bad habit of delaying replies and then completely forgetting about the discussion, like the Norway prison thing, so I'm not without fault It's a matter of respect and honor. Just because it's the Internet doesn't mean I can treat everyone as if they were subhuman creatures that exist to entertain me.



Incog	Sep 4 2011, 06:15 PM Post #162
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	Dragon, how do you know this higher being can even be trusted? How do you communicate with him?
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 06:24 PM Post #163
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Sep 4 2011, 05:56 PM DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 05:49 PM That's because everything I say here somehow turns into an argument. I don't pursue arguments, Adams. If you don't like it, you can scroll down or leave and listen to your terrible music or whatever floats your boat. Yeah, it's not like you're provocative or anything. My views are provocative because they're in contradiction to yours. But what about the drugs discussion, for example? All I did was explain the Netherlands' policy on drug tourism (because Richard was going there and I didn't want him to end up breaking the law), then Rich and Red turned that into a debate and before I knew it, I was accused of liking crime and opposing drug legalization. Not my fault, as you can see.



DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 06:28 PM Post #164
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	gs Sep 4 2011, 05:58 PM DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 05:21 PM No. Morals are true and correct because the all-knowing (note: all-knowing) entity says they are. It's a belief. "What if it's lying?" is irrelevant. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, then nothing should be accepted as true, since it could be a lie or a figment of your imagination. That computer you're using? Purely your imagination. People say it exists? They're imagining it as well, or maybe they're lying. Now the computer is no different than supernatural beings. the point here is that you're calling morals objective while they're entirely based on your beliefs. you can believe your morals are better than mine all you want, we all believe the morals we follow are better than everyone else's because otherwise we wouldn't be following them, but you're calling them objective which implies you have knowledge of some kind of objective truth supporting you. we're asking how you're so sure and you're unable to give us anything that isn't based purely on your personal beliefs. I said the morals themselves are inherently objective, because the higher being is all-knowing. I didn't say my knowledge of that is objective and undeniable. @ Incog: That's for you to discover.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Sep 4 2011, 06:30 PM Post #165
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	Except resolute statements and rhetorical questions are the best method of provoking argument. Look, it's happening again. edit: It's a matter of declaration succeeded by retort, in which pride and conceit play the sovereign roles. It wouldn't matter the extent to which your ideas were different to mine; if I was convinced that I could overpower you, and therefore augment myself in my own esteem, then I will be all the more persuaded to contradict you; and, through whatever convictions or motivations of your own, you return the same procedure, which conduces to the motion of argument. It's in everybody's power to prevent it from happening. The fact is, we choose not to. The guilt is universal. Edited by The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom, Sep 4 2011, 06:43 PM.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Sep 4 2011, 06:45 PM Post #166
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 06:28 PM @ Incog: That's for you to discover. Which completely and utterly demolishes your argument.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 06:58 PM Post #167
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Ultra-Musketeer Sep 4 2011, 06:30 PM Except resolute statements and rhetorical questions are the best method of provoking argument. Look, it's happening again. edit: It's a matter of declaration succeeded by retort, in which pride and conceit play the sovereign roles. It wouldn't matter the extent to which your ideas were different to mine; if I was convinced that I could overpower you, and therefore augment myself in my own esteem, then I will be all the more persuaded to contradict you; and, through whatever convictions or motivations of your own, you return the same procedure, which conduces to the motion of argument. It's in everybody's power to prevent it from happening. The fact is, we choose not to. The guilt is universal. I'm sure that plays a role. Mainly I don't think things through before allowing myself to be dragged into a discussion, and once I'm in the middle of an argument, I can't leave until one side is proven wrong, lest the other person feels their time was wasted. Voila, 12-page discussion. @ Incog: Nope. One's personal beliefs, and their relationship with whatever higher being/s in the world, are private and none of other people's business. It's up to you to discover and understand spirituality.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Sep 4 2011, 07:00 PM Post #168
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	It just seems to me that you're naturally argumentative.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


DragonLegend	Sep 4 2011, 07:03 PM Post #169
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	I don't know if that's true, but there's nothing wrong with it. I say make your case, defend your views, and stick to your principles. Don't agree to disagree; that's suicidal. Not all views can coexist. I will try to convert as many people to my ideology as possible, because I believe it's the best, and in many cases, the only good one. Edited by DragonLegend, Sep 4 2011, 07:06 PM.



The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom	Sep 4 2011, 07:19 PM Post #170
:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN Posts: 18,587 Group: A414A Member Member #35 Joined: January 11, 2008	And that is perhaps the principal feature of an argument; to have either participant vociferously maintain what they believe until the discussion grows so incessant that someone is obliged to withdraw out of tedium alone. Some day, conscientious human beings will argue so as to discover truth, and not effect assimilation.
	Jam It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes


Incog	Sep 4 2011, 07:23 PM Post #171
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 06:58 PM @ Incog: Nope. One's personal beliefs, and their relationship with whatever higher being/s in the world, are private and none of other people's business. It's up to you to discover and understand spirituality. Seems more like a convenient excuse to avoid the question, but that's just me.
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


Adams	Sep 4 2011, 08:19 PM Post #172
The Real Posts: 6,405 Group: A414A Member Member #2 Joined: December 12, 2007	DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 06:15 PM Adams Sep 4 2011, 05:55 PM For a guy not pursuing them you get involved in a lot. At least my arguments are interesting. Id rather tug on my nuts than read the stuff your talking about. Believe me I will listen to my "terrible" music. I don't like 'running away' from debates. I try to end ones I don't want to continue, but that usually takes a long time, to end a discussion without making someone feel like you were wasting their time. I know what it's like to spend a lot of time and effort making your case only to have the other guy never respond. I have a bad habit of delaying replies and then completely forgetting about the discussion, like the Norway prison thing, so I'm not without fault It's a matter of respect and honor. Just because it's the Internet doesn't mean I can treat everyone as if they were subhuman creatures that exist to entertain me. Now your going to argue with me but im not biting



Incog	Sep 4 2011, 08:29 PM Post #173
CHEERIO! Posts: 21,769 Group: French Member #6 Joined: December 13, 2007	fair's fair
	Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great.


_Saladin_	Sep 4 2011, 11:50 PM Post #174
Major Bullshit Posts: 2,763 Group: A414A Member Member #28 Joined: January 1, 2008	DragonLegend Sep 4 2011, 05:21 PM No. Morals are true and correct because the all-knowing (note: all-knowing) entity says they are. It's a belief. "What if it's lying?" is irrelevant. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, then nothing should be accepted as true, since it could be a lie or a figment of your imagination. That computer you're using? Purely your imagination. People say it exists? They're imagining it as well, or maybe they're lying. Now the computer is no different than supernatural beings. Oh, why didn't you just say it was your opinion? I thought you were objectively saying that morals exist.



Firom	Sep 5 2011, 12:48 AM Post #175
Major Posts: 1,513 Group: Member Member #149 Joined: February 25, 2009	DragonLegend Sep 3 2011, 08:36 AM Firom Aug 24 2011, 04:59 PM Firom Aug 24 2011, 05:11 AM It's hard to say something is always wrong. There tends to be a scenario imaginable in which it's the right thing to do. That's not to say that there aren't general guidelines which we can follow, but more to say that morals can't be 100% absolute. Dragon, please read this. Morality is mainly about intention, not actions. Killing a man for fun is wrong. Killing a man in self-defense isn't. Raping a child to hurt it him/her is wrong. Raping the child because you're mentally damaged to the point you're a quasi-animal incapable of differentiating between right and wrong isn't. The bible says though shalt not kill, but you just said that it's fine sometimes? That seems to me like it's a problem. If it's absolute, there can't be an exception. After all, that one of the ten commandments was not "Though shalt not kill, except if it's for a good cause." In fact, what you just told me about it being ok seems to go against the strictly christian morality that you hold so firmly. After all, you can't be adding in any of your own elements and telling me morality comes only from a higher power. Second, if this higher power is non-existent/lying, that doesn't invalidate everything else. You're suggesting that we should doubt all sensory perception because it turns out that we projected a higher power? That doesn't follow in the slightest. It would rather lead to the conclusion that there is no higher power or that there is a different power. It doesn't give me sufficient reason to doubt my surroundings. No one has really cared about Montaigne in some good time. To say that morality can only come from a higher power is just stupid, not to mention. Think of someone like John Stuart Mill, who sets up a system (Utilitarianism) entirely defined through human means to say what is good. Or how about Aristotle? Eudaimonia is achieved by "rational activity done well." His idea of the flourishing and good life is one of rationalism. There is no sense of a christian god in his works. That doesn't mean his moral code doesn't exist. Whether or not you think it's wrong is an entirely different matter than whether or not he has created a moral system. I could go on and on about people who've created moral codes, but that's just redundant.



DragonLegend	Sep 10 2011, 02:31 PM Post #176
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	No, sir, no excuse. I have nothing to gain from winning an argument on the Internet. I gave you a response. Take it or leave it, bud. My objective morality exists as much as your computer, if not more so. I'm 99.99% sure my views are true. Firom, too bad that has nothing to do with what I said. You don't need to follow the Bible to be spiritual. And humans can't set up an objective system of morality. Humans aren't all-knowing, infallible beings. Edited by DragonLegend, Sep 10 2011, 02:32 PM.



Firom	Sep 10 2011, 08:52 PM Post #177
Major Posts: 1,513 Group: Member Member #149 Joined: February 25, 2009	alright, you either didn't read my post, or you didn't read your own. And yeah, you'd need to follow the bible rather strictly to say you're following that system.



DragonLegend	Sep 10 2011, 09:19 PM Post #178
Field Marshal Posts: 15,575 Group: Member Member #40 Joined: January 19, 2008	Yeah, I think you need to read my posts carefully before making wild assumptions about my beliefs.



Vondongo	Sep 10 2011, 09:37 PM Post #179
Moo. Posts: 5,434 Group: Member Member #130 Joined: October 15, 2008	An aside: moral codes are defined by what is desirable, or what is good, etc. Where does this sense originate from? What makes good something that is good? Morality is pretty strictly defined, even across codes, as something moving towards that central "good". Without an overarching authority or higher power to determine what is good, which these could theoretically stem from, is any of it actually good? Is murder any worse than saving a life? According to whom? Who has a say? It's all arbitrary from there. You don't believe in a central good that transcends human existence? Then there is no basis for good, because it's a fabrication of our imagination. Our morality is only valid on an individual scale, and anything above that is you forcing your beliefs on someone else. Nothing is right. Nothing is wrong. Everything is permitted. Everything is punished.



Ichigo1uk	Sep 11 2011, 12:13 AM Post #180
Huh? Posts: 9,838 Group: A414A Member Member #10 Joined: December 14, 2007	DragonLegend Sep 10 2011, 09:19 PM Yeah, I think you need to read my posts carefully before making wild assumptions about my beliefs. Your a Jew.
	Incog Jan 19 2012, 05:34 PM I think unicorns have a higher chance of existing than gods do. I mean, if a mare fell into the ocean and a narwhal raped it, then the mare might just give birth to a unicorn.


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