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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 30 2014, 06:39 AM (3,456 Views) | |
| Incog | Apr 30 2014, 06:39 AM Post #1 |
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CHEERIO!
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European elections coming up between may the 22nd and 25th. Since there are a few Europeans here let's discuss this. Suddenly we're all voting in the same thing. :B Who do we vote for? I'm not even sure what the hell I'm voting for? That's a problem, in my opinion. Retards like me are allowed to vote when they have no idea what's going on. So I'd better inform myself, but I don't know where. I saw an ad this morning and also listening to the radio I was told I needed to vote. Also, are you other guys even going to vote? |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| gs | Apr 30 2014, 06:55 AM Post #2 |
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if it's anything like normal elections then i'm not gonna vote. it's impossible to know who is the best candidate based on the info i would naturally run into and i cba spending my precious free time looking into it |
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| Incog | Apr 30 2014, 10:45 AM Post #3 |
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CHEERIO!
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Lol but that sums up pretty every single democratic election though |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | Apr 30 2014, 10:46 AM Post #4 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Vote UKIP. |
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| gs | Apr 30 2014, 10:56 AM Post #5 |
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which is why democracy doesn't really work. (these are estimates) 90% of the people who vote don't have any idea what the real issues are and 9 of the remaining 10% gets brainwashed into following 1 guy because he can win a discussion, leaving only 1% of people who actually make an informed decision. it's just as broken a system as capitalism and nobody knows it. the thing is there is no fix until AI (which lacks the destructive desire to acquire more power and wealth) starts running government. |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | Apr 30 2014, 11:38 AM Post #6 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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The world is already being run by an enormous supercomputer. It's called the human race. |
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| gs | Apr 30 2014, 11:43 AM Post #7 |
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can't really call it one supercomputer when all of us have our own selfish desires. humans are highly subjective which is why solving problems on a large scale is so hard for us. also, you say supercomputer, but consider the following: but it seems like while its predictions are quite realistic and even likely, this website tends to be optimistic (as in, it will probably be closer to 2070). gotta love that website though. shit like this is truly mindblowing http://www.futuretimeline.net/the-far-future.htm#.U2DjWvl_vNs |
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| Incog | Apr 30 2014, 11:52 AM Post #8 |
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CHEERIO!
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i've flamed democracy before |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | Apr 30 2014, 01:14 PM Post #9 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Selfish desires are the essential part of the program. |
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| MaxJ | Apr 30 2014, 05:59 PM Post #10 |
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Wij van A414A adviseren A414A
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I am more or less eurosceptic. I am not against the European Union or the Euro but I'm very against a federal union, transfer union, bureaucracy and useless laws which the EU likes making. But because I believe the eurosceptic parties are not behaving like eurosceptics will I probably vote for an anti-European Union party or maybe for the Pirates. Pity though as I am also member of a political party but am not sure if I should vote for them :P |
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Jouw wereld, jouw A414A forum. | |
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| Incog | Apr 30 2014, 07:25 PM Post #11 |
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CHEERIO!
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that just sounds scary still though, what happens when people try to use these tools for their selfish desires? nah bro, what's described here, I don't see it happening. people always want more and people always want things for subjective reasons. it's those drives that make us human and it's those same drives that make it so that we won't ever get to that degree, imo |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| gs | Apr 30 2014, 10:09 PM Post #12 |
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yeah they will want more and more is what they'll get. as soon as we have an AI capable of creative thought, a self improving AI is not far off and eventually its grasp on how things work will be, to us, unfathomable. just try to imagine how smart this thing would be, and how smart it could become as it improves itself with the processing power of trillions of human brains. as more robots are developed and the internet is optimized, this AI would soon combine all data centers and robotic beings with network capability into a single "mind", which would be able to solve all our problems using 1% of its processing power and spend the other 99% on thinking about creative ways to make itself smarter and our lives even better (since that would be its programmed purpose). it would be almost all powerful, considering its intellect and all the other human-developed technologies it would have to work with by 2200. and what we would get out of it is the possiblity to never work a day in our lives, and acquire almost anything we would ever want be it in a virtual reality or in real life. sure, there are some things we wouldn't be able to get such as power. however what use is power when everything it enables you to do you can already do without it? things like this are hard to imagine, but considering how fast things could go if a general purpose AI is ever developed, it's not only realistic but even unavoidable that computers will quite literally take over the world. and yeah, it does sound scary because humans make mistakes and any mistake made in the programming of such an AI would be potentially catastrophic, but still it sounds more exciting than scary if you ask me |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 1 2014, 10:34 AM Post #13 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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This is pretty much my view. |
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| ryker | May 1 2014, 06:22 PM Post #14 |
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General
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GS, that is actually quite interesting and exciting. I have done some reading and they have started implanting processing chips into mice to help them learn. Mice without the chip when placed in the maize have to find their way every time. Mice with the chip can find their way through pre-implanted information from the chip itself. Eventually, these types of chips are expected to be regularity with newborn children. Ofc there will always be those people who shun technology such as this in the name of “playing god” but like the belief of god itself, these people will become more scarcer until the thought of god is nothing but an interesting story, not unlike Zeus or Odin amd for enjoyment thatrics only. We will further and further combine ourselves with computers moving closer and closer to a cyborg type living existence. In regards to raw intelligence, we are really and truthfully about as far in the natural evolutionary chart that we can get without biological engineering or cyborg type improvements. As goodspeed points out, due to the increase in intelligence of AI, if we want to even semi keep up with machine intelligence, we will have to further immerse ourselves with the technology itself until a point where biological processing is a hindrance to the intelligence of the person. I think eventually that is the fate of the human race, to be completely immersed in the technology we created and humans as we know them now will be “extinct”. This is why I believe that if we ever are visited with intelligent life, the original biological alien will already be extinct. What we would be making contact with is a completely computer/technology type being. Edited by ryker, May 1 2014, 06:23 PM.
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| my name is ryker | |
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| ryker | May 1 2014, 06:33 PM Post #15 |
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General
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GS is also right on democracy in regards to percentages. I would see that as VERY accurate. The average person is more interested in who Kim Kardashian is married to than things like this that really matter. That and all the politicians are so damn corrupt it isn't even funny. Politicians are the only groups where inside stock trading is not illegal... When a non-corrupt politician tries to break through, he either dealt with or drowned out. You as the public only see what they want you to see... It is sickening... |
| my name is ryker | |
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| Incog | May 1 2014, 06:39 PM Post #16 |
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CHEERIO!
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I don't think that's possible. An AI can be very "intelligent" but behind every great AI there's an even greater programmer. I don't think AIs can be programmed to be programmers. Perhaps they can but such programmers would be limited to programming only for a certain goal. I don't see anything like what you see in the Matrix happening either. There are going to be limitations to this AI and humans will always be there to overcome those limitations. Unless the AI somehow becomes alive. |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| Incog | May 1 2014, 06:40 PM Post #17 |
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CHEERIO!
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yah no call me an old fart but I don't see any of it happening, even centuries from now. raw processing power, sure. but the intellect behind it is for living things only. |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 1 2014, 06:56 PM Post #18 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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long live yrope. http://i.imgur.com/Y3M5eQv.jpg |
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| gs | May 2 2014, 12:25 AM Post #19 |
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except what if you program an AI to learn? the way we learn is really quite simple it's basically just pattern recognition and trial & error. this AI's colossal processing power would allow it to learn a lot faster than we do (even if programmed inefficiently compared to our brains) and at a certain point it would learn to improve itself (like we do, except we can't change the way we are programmed at will). it may not happen for a while but saying it's never gonna happen? while you're not definitely wrong, you are being optimistic (or pessimistic depending on the way you're looking at it). odds are (looking at the research and expert opinions) it's just a matter of time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence
another interesting one is immortality, or eternal youth an even more exciting thought. we may even get to see it all happen :) just imagine still being alive in 500 years and being one of the oldest human beings in the world (since this could be the century in which we stop dying). another reason to acquire currency. |
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| ryker | May 2 2014, 02:29 PM Post #20 |
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Incog, I like ya man but I am with GS on this one. In fact, they are already programing computers to learn by trial and error, the process by which humans learn. I know we had the conversation about trial and error in mathematical equations but that is not what I am talking about. They are actually programing robots to learn good and bad and make decisions based off of past experiences. It is primitive at the moment but they have programed in a generation from what they are trying what took evolution millions of years to achieve. They base their next actions bassed off of what they literally learned from past experiences. A few examples here: In this one, they learn through emotional associations through sight, sense, and sounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Fh25bXvqk On this one the robot literally learns how to walk by nothing but trial and error. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNL5-0_T1D0 In this one they learn to play soccer. To GS point, the fact that they are connected in their mind, increases their processing power and efficiency. In a war (should one ever happen) between man and machine, this is why we would be screwed. There is no way that we could win as we still have communication error that they would never have. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH54tH1-3KU What we have to spend years going to school to learn and study, a computer could literally download the know how (and be literally able to do as well as a seasoned veteran in the field) to another in hours, minutes, seconds, or even fraction of seconds. One learns it and teaches the entire network how to do it in a small amount of time we can’t even comprehend it. Computers are learning to “be alive” now. It is primitive, but not as far off as what you think at the exponential speed of which computers learn. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 2 2014, 05:36 PM Post #21 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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But until a computer learns how to morality it will never be elected president. |
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| Incog | May 2 2014, 05:49 PM Post #22 |
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CHEERIO!
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Computers are dumb. Trial and error only gets you so far, for most problems in life you have to sit down and think things out. regardless, you still need a more than capable human behind any AI to program it. the learning needs to be coded, the goals of the computer need to be coded, what is an "error" and what isn't needs to be coded, etc. Edited by Incog, May 2 2014, 05:50 PM.
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| ryker | May 2 2014, 06:37 PM Post #23 |
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General
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That is true incog but you are ignoring one crucial detail. As humans create more powerful computers, their ability to create a more complex program increases as the computer itself helps the human in creating the program. There will come a day, and I believe fairly soon, that a human and a slightly less capable computer create a program that is more capable than the human. When that happens, humans being as lazy as we are, will solely rely on the computer to create more and more complex programs. This will include AI. Once this happens, the computers can create more powerful AI programs. The speed in which it does this is only limited by the processing power of the computer which essentially is already smarter, more logical, quicker, and more able to develop a thought sequence than humans by a long stretch. Right now humans are only capable of trial and error. They sit down as you say, think of something, and test the theory to see if it is true or not. The only difference is that their trial and error is not random, it is based off of past experiences. We are starting to program computers to follow this logic, which is the point of the videos I posted. They are starting to learn to work to a specific goal and apply trial and error. Not only are they applying trial and error, they are starting to pick what they do based off of something that worked and something that didn’t rather than throw out random trials until they find one that works. It is only a matter of time before they start thinking of why it works rather than that it does. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| Incog | May 3 2014, 08:20 AM Post #24 |
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CHEERIO!
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The computer can't sit down and think. It's incapable of thought, unlike living creatures. That's why it won't do jack shit. There's no pondering if there's a weird reason why something isn't working or why something is working when it's supposed to be. We look for explanations, computers don't. If you were to put a puzzle into a box and have a machine shake that box, would the solution ever really come? E.g. would the puzzle ever be completed? Even if you gave it a 100 years, there's no way that a machine will EVER shake the box in just the right way for all the puzzle pieces to come together to finish it perfectly, even two pieces coming together I find unlikely. OK you say, you'll tell me that it's still quite possible to create an AI that will be able to solve the puzzle (I'm talking about cut cardboard pieces here). I say, I agree with you! You need to program the AI the figure out what a puzzle is, how it works, you need to give it an arm / hand to be able to manipulate puzzle pieces and you need to be able to program it so that it has a protocol to follow, you also need to write the protocol for it (including identifying pieces, manipulating them, trying combinations, looking at the edges of each piece and comparing it to other stuff). Now take a 5 year old and tell him to finish the puzzle. He'll do it in an hour. It's indeed possible to create an AI that will be able to solve such a puzzle faster than a 5 year old, but it will take MUCH longer to create such an AI, program it, get rid of all the bugs, etc. The programmer also has to know how a puzzle works. Now this is a puzzle cut-out cardboard pieces. Everyone knows how puzzles works, everyone knows the rules that puzzles follow. The same thing could be said for Chess. There are established rules in chess; those rules can't be broken. That's why AIs can be created that are capable of beating human chess masters. AIs are incredibly potent when following "rules". Throw them a curve-ball in the form of something weird and they freeze. It's called a bug, I would think. Computers are incredibly potent but also incredibly stupid. They NEED baby-sitters to work properly (those guys are called programmers). There's no way in hell an AI will be able to learn by itself until the baby-sitters figure out the established rules. We don't have those rules. Our understanding of physics isn't bad but it's still pretty shitty when you think about it. There are plently of things we just don't understand. We have theories yes, but you can't base rules/laws over theories. Not to mention that our current theories will most likely be flawed in the future, when our perspective changes once again. Light used be an electromagnetic wave. Then Einstein said it was smt else (oops, sort of a bop here, I don't remember what light is to Einstein). That model also proved correct. In fact both models proved to be correct in some situations and incorrect in others. Other, simpler things as well. Economic theory. Is cow shit better than horse shit for certain plants? etc Basically our understanding of physics is still really bad and you can be sure as hell that an AI won't ever figure out anything for you. AI, even self-learning ones, will never figure out jack-shit because that's what humans do by sitting down and thinking (challenging rules). Self-learning AI are capable of finding rules that have been previously established by humans. We know the AI has figured out something (learned) once it has found a conclusion that is the same as ours. AI is an incredibly potent tool but it remains just that: a tool. It's humans that will be doing the work with that tool, the tool itself won't do it for us. ^That's just science/logic. Now, let's throw in humans. Do you really think that conflict won't spawn around such potent tools? That the programmer who programmed an amazing AI won't sell it at an amazing price? That maybe one AI is amazing but has x flaw and that another AI is also amazing without x flaw but has y flaw. Where do the resources to build the AI come from? There's huge potential in this sector, do you not think that the people at the top of this sector would not SELL the services of their AI? Will they really benevolently give up all their hard work to everyone for free? If I thought about this harder I could find a ton of other objections. |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 3 2014, 09:19 AM Post #25 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Ok Incog but before we go any further consider this: How is it possible that we can design computers capable of performing differential calculus better than any human...??????????????????
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 3 2014, 09:24 AM Post #26 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Also not sure why you guys insist on derailing this thread when it ought to be about yrope.
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| Incog | May 3 2014, 09:52 AM Post #27 |
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CHEERIO!
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because in math rules are absolute also because someone very intelligent designed it the more the rules become shady (as in high-end physics) the less we can rely on the rote performance of a computer program and the more we have to think outside the box, as Edited by Incog, May 3 2014, 09:52 AM.
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 3 2014, 10:47 AM Post #28 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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dude high-end physics is just maths. |
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| Jam | May 4 2014, 02:46 AM Post #29 |
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Fruit Based Jam
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Maths equations are useless unless they designed to model reality, otherwise you can make up an equation to prove anything. Physics is more than just math. Anyway, will the robots be able to give consent? guys pls, this is important. I have a European erection coming up and I need to think about what the future holds. (hopefully it holds my penis) |
| Long live Carolus | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 4 2014, 06:02 AM Post #30 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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No, consent presupposes free will and robots don't have that. |
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