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| Tweet Topic Started: May 30 2014, 05:21 PM (1,283 Views) | |
| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:21 PM Post #1 |
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I know a lot of us on here are atheist or agnostic at the very least. Here is a series of videos on YouTube outlining a mans journey from Christianity to atheism. There are very many similarities in this mans path on my journey from god to being an atheist. There are some notable differences such as denominations (I was either a disciple of Christ or Lutheran), and I never went through a faze of thinking I was the messiah. There are key similarities though. the professor he speaks about (you will know if you watch the movie) for me is actually these forums. Although I was already starting to doubt the existence of god and felt silly speaking to people about him as if he existed, meeting you guys and visiting with you on your viewpoints gave me the confidence I needed to quit lying to myself about what I believed. I was always taught that atheist are mean, nasty, evil people and after meeting you guys, I found that was not the case. It gave me the opportunity I needed to be truthful with myself and not think of myself as a "bad person" because of what I believed. He goes into the steps many take as the go through the conversion. He explains that it isn't one single event but rather a network of events that challenge you until you realize you have nothing left to stand on to convince yourself otherwise. I went a slightly different order than him though. prayer, other Christians, personal relationship were all something I had gone through prior to this forum. Moral is what pushed me over the edge, and you guys, as I explained above, were a large part of that. I have came out of the christian closet so to say to my closest friends and family but have yet to make it truly public. I am still afraid of the backlash to my career if people that keep pushing me up the ranks because of my work ethic and knowledge find out I am not christian. It is horrible to think this but I know how some christian logic go. Being an atheist to them is far worse than worshiping another god or being satanic. All they think about you may change just by finding out that one thing. I hope to some day have the courage to not be afraid of my belief, but stand by it socially. I don't go to measures of telling people I am christian, I just say I am not religious. For some reason the atheist stamp is the kiss of death around here... All in all, this forum had a significant role in my life moving forward. Each and every one of you (I must admit) shaped me in some way, and I think you for that. Many Christians converted to atheist say they feel as if a weight was lifted off their chest once they were honest with themselves, and I would agree. I did feel that sense of peace that I was honest with myself and I was not struck down by the "god almighty". Anyway, here is the videos link, I hope you enjoy it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSy1-Q_BEtQ&list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A&index=1 |
| my name is ryker | |
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| gs | May 30 2014, 05:22 PM Post #2 |
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that's really cool to hear. i don't actually remember any of the threads where we discussed the existence of god with you though. or maybe i wasn't in them? how did your friends/family react? |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:23 PM Post #3 |
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GS when I accidentally posted in the other forum you respond that you don't remember the post specifically talking about god with me. It wasn't specific threads. It was a conundrum of them. The arguments and logical reasoning disputes that were had between redemption and others. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| Incog | May 30 2014, 05:25 PM Post #4 |
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CHEERIO!
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that's all gs's work I think I abandoned discussing religion back in 2009 |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:37 PM Post #5 |
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You were Definitely in them. It was arguments over the logical probability of the existence of god. I could probably go back and find a few of them :) My wife took it well. She struggles with it, mainly for our children if they take after me and the though of not being with me in the afterlife if she is right. She accepts it though. Another thing that is hard for her is the fact that I was a christian when we got married. I think I was in my early stages of denial but still a self proclaimed christian. My mother on the other hand took it horribly. She cried, yelled, pleaded, etc. She is a very illogical person and thought she could logically convince me to "come back to the light". She asks me things all the time like how I can not believe in god when I see XYZ and tells me that she is praying for me even though I ask her to stop. One time I told her that her god is great and I saw a glimmer of hope in her eyes. She said really? what made you change your mind? I told her nothing, I still believe he doesn't exist for the following reasons. despite her praying for me, it does nothing but piss me off. Since her god is all powerful however he is all knowing. That means that there is no free will by definition. That means my fate is per-determined. That means that your all powerful god created me to suffer eternally in hell. She asked how that is crying and i told her that he created me to be an atheist. Since he knows the future, I had no choice in the mater. He isn't a great god then is he? Even that didn't get her to stop her from trying to convince me to this day. My mother in law constantly argues with me over the bible that she takes literally. She is over talking about god to the kids to make them not think like me (even though I don't yet want my kids to know until they are old enough to decide for themselves. I think that when they get in their 20's and if their mom and grandmas have taught them what they want, at that point I will break the news to them. The will either follow the logical path with me or side with them. I will love them either way). Anyway, she constantly tells me that she is just trying to make me see her side of things. I constantly remind her that I know and understand her side. I used to be on her side and believe just as firmly as her of the existence of god. I used to argue with people like me. It is her who cannot understand my side of things. These videos are right though. Most Christians think that just because I am an atheist now, that means that there is no way I could truly have believed in god, therefore I am wrong. The rest of the god fearing family members I have told have distanced themselves from me. They think I am evil or the devil is working on me... I don't care about their opinion of me. What I do care about is their reaction, and it is the main reason I have not come fully public with it yet. If my family turns on me, what would it do to my professional career short of destroying it? I am more logical than that. Just because I believe something, doesn't mean I want to shove it down someone else' throat at the expense of my family to prove a point. I will bide my time until it is the right time. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:38 PM Post #6 |
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Yes late 2009, I have been a member since 2008 :) |
| my name is ryker | |
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| Incog | May 30 2014, 05:39 PM Post #7 |
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CHEERIO!
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This is by far the most annoying thing with religion. People will get over-zealous about it. I feel bad for you and at the same time allow me to praise you for being brave enough to be honest both to yourself and your family. I don't think I could do that. Your wife is amazing btw. |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| Incog | May 30 2014, 05:41 PM Post #8 |
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CHEERIO!
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I was half joking, I've taken the occasional jab at religion since then but yeah it's gs who tends to rationalize things for people. gs you once talked to me about this pm exchange you had with a guy on agecomm about religion, how did that turn out? |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:43 PM Post #9 |
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Also I guess they weren't diretely about god but rather arguments for other ideas of the orginion of life or the universe. In discussions like creation vs BBT Creation vs asteroids bringing life to earth etc. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:50 PM Post #10 |
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I also (Like the guy in the video) tried to rationalize how god and science are truly working together. for several years I thought god created man through evolution, that god created the universe through the BBT. I remember when I first found out I was going to be learning about evolution in school. I HATED it. I refused to listen at first. Then I read an article about evolution without realizing what it was about. By the time i found out i was already skeptical that there was no way it couldn't be true given the amount of logical evidence for it. I then studded it in school and fell in love with the idea. I rationalized how god could still be in the equation. Much like you guys were my tipping point over the edge, that biology class and article was the gun fire at the start of an uphill marathon. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 05:55 PM Post #11 |
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I really do suggest you guys watch the videos. It starts off slow with a lot of christian bull but he is setting the stage for christians to hopefully understand that he really WAS a christian and his logical journey out of christianity. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| gs | May 30 2014, 05:57 PM Post #12 |
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Slow down
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a hopeless case, at least at his age (17). maybe in 5 years he'll realise how wrong he was |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 30 2014, 06:58 PM Post #13 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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The problem with religion in EU4 is that I can never seem to change my state religion to Protestantism without spending all my bonus gold on putting down religious insurgencies. Seriously, Protestantism needs a huge buff. |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 07:26 PM Post #14 |
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You have no idea. She put up with the constant bickering of her family and I, this, etc. I have alwyas and will always be faithful to her, never hit her, etc. but I think I have put her through more than she has put me in. Despite that, she still for some reason loves me whatever way I am. If there really was a god, I wouldn't be so lucky to have a wife like her. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| Jack the IV | May 30 2014, 11:37 PM Post #15 |
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The Gent's Club
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I used to be a devout Catholic. Then I became an atheist. Then I became agnostic. Now I'm leaning more towards Buddhism and theism. What most Christians believe, and what I was taught, is so far from what my Christian professors at my uni believe. It's staggering really. For example: the head physics professor is a Christian as is a professor with a doctorate in neuroscience and religion. These aren't unintelligent or brainwashed people. What they believe is far from the common day Christian, so far that I'd argue they aren't even the same religion. |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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| ryker | May 30 2014, 11:50 PM Post #16 |
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I would say I can see this. Do they believe in not a one deity but that everything in itself is god? All existence is god, and therefore god is the creator of the universe as god is the universe and everything in it from the largest star to the smallest bit of mater. Because god in essence was the cause of the creation of itself, god created everything. If not can you go into some detail? I know that all but a very few of my college (or uni whatever you call it) professors were either atheist, agnostic, theist (not divine theist), or Buddhist. very few were anything other than agnostic or atheist. I had 2 Buddhist (not the one that believes in a "god" but rather the connection with the universe or something like that). one Arab, and one christian. I was surprised to find this out as they are not open about it, especially being at a Christian college. It is a huge elephant in the closet at most colleges I have heard. I spoke with one about, about how they could work at a Methodist supported college and not believe in the foundation the college was built on. His response was that it was a job above everything. They got to do what they loved. They just couldn't talk about religion. That was before my conversion however. I wasn't rude or blaming, but rather curious. It would have been around the time of my marriage so I would have been in denial at that point, probably looking for guidance. Edited by ryker, May 30 2014, 11:51 PM.
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| my name is ryker | |
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| Jack the IV | May 31 2014, 06:10 AM Post #17 |
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The Gent's Club
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I never really talked to the physics prof about his beliefs but I have attended two lectures given by the neuroscience and religion doctor. This was his last year teaching as he is retiring, unfortunately, as I would have liked to have a discussion with him. Anyways, his last lecture was about how the idea of dualism is dead. Dualism being the idea that the body and mind (or consciousness) are two different entities. However, saying that they are the same entity would be saying that free will is nonexistent. Since no one is comfortable with that idea a compromise must be struck. He has several different compromises, although I feel like there are only two options. 1. Free will does not exist 2. Our brains are special and give rise to something special. Does a monotheistic God exist? Probably not in the sense most people would think, that is just way too simple. What exactly is "God" then? I'm not sure. There are so many philosophical and religious questions that I've been attempting to answer that I have way more questions now than what I began with. Religion is so much more that the question of "Does God exist or not?" |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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| ryker | May 31 2014, 06:45 AM Post #18 |
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Interesting. Funny thing is that each story in the bible was not written by one person but rather pieced together by many authors to make an agenda. They can be separated by writing styles, and once separated, each story can be a stand alone story. To make things even more interesting, the beginning of the bible was based off of pagen religion made to look non pagen. He goes into detail of these in his videos, of which I looked up and scholars agree. It is funny how the bible starts off by saying things like no other god shall be worshiped before me, and I above all gods. The second half of it talks about there being one and only god. Why does the beginning of the bible acknowledge other gods but put "god" as the most powerful, and then later dismiss the idea of other gods? The idea of how the world was created was stolen from a pagen religion from before Christianity also. The one thing he did not mention that is also relevant is how many other religions have almost the exact same flood story... |
| my name is ryker | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 31 2014, 06:52 AM Post #19 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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I wouldn't say 'stolen'. Religions evolve just like any other idea, and receive influence from the religions that came before them. |
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| Jack the IV | May 31 2014, 08:07 AM Post #20 |
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The Gent's Club
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Ryker, that is why I do not believe in the generic "monotheistic God". Anything written by humans is bound to be corrupted or manipulated for political or economic purpose over time. God is a much more complicated idea that humans have tried to make physical in order to understand, and this oversimplification has only lead to roadblocks into understanding the human condition and what God really is, or even if such a thing exists. |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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| gs | May 31 2014, 11:04 AM Post #21 |
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Slow down
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just because people are uncomfortable with there not being free will doesn't mean we have to compromise. it's hard for me to imagine someone analytical who is trying to think about things objectively could ever believe anything like free will exists. free will implies that our brain sometimes acts outside the way it's programmed, which means it's acting without a cause. this comes back to a discussion in another thread: randomness like this cannot exist. every event is, in theory, predictable. and even if randomness like this could exist, that means something random happened inside our heads which the brain function that makes us conscious has no influence over (after all if our brain could influence this random event then it wouldn't be random). the decision we make would still be influenced by that random event, and not by our conscious thought. any decision we consciously make is by definition not "free", because our consciousness is a brain process with other processes influencing it. the question whether god exists can't even be taken seriously if you only look at the evidence. there is zero. the only reason everyone believes it, or wants to believe it, is because we don't like unanswered questions. what almost everyone is missing is that the answer "god did it" is in fact so lazy that it doesn't even answer anything, it just calls for more questions but most people don't realise this because they don't think about things beyond a certain level. almost everyone raised with religion is not trained to think analytically. not by their parents who if they still are theists in 2014 are clearly incapable of it, and not by school which completely botches the most important subject: math. they don't train you to think logically (which is the best way to learn math) but rather train you to solve each different problem in a specific way by repeating the same question and answer a 100 times. |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 31 2014, 05:40 PM Post #22 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Actually, it's a bit more interesting than that; while determinism leads to the problem of free will, non-determinism doesn't really solve it. If there weren't any causes and things just happened arbitrarily, then we would have no grounds for believing that our will could have any impact on the environment around us. Sure, we would be 'free' in the sense that external forces wouldn't be influencing our decisions, but we would be incapable of using that freedom to direct our actions. We would be just as helplessly imprisoned by our circumstances as we would be in a deterministic universe. This raises the question of how the free will problem is supposed to be solved, regardless of whether it can even be solved at all. Not really trying to invoke a discussion here, I just thought it would be interesting to point out. edit: nevermind I just realised you wrote more or less the same thing. lol Edited by The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom, May 31 2014, 05:51 PM.
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| Jack the IV | May 31 2014, 08:08 PM Post #23 |
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The Gent's Club
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The conclusion that free will does not exist has serious consequences. If that is the case then everything that has happened was meant to happen (genocide, murder, war). How can you be so surprised people believe in a God when that is the other option of belief? And just because we have free will doesn't mean things just happen randomly without cause. There is still order in the universe but our consciousness gives rise to something that doesn't follow the order of the universe: free will. We are gods and the universe is our sandbox. |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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| ryker | May 31 2014, 08:51 PM Post #24 |
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Yes you are right but bible thumping theist take that danmed book literally, everything in it. They got that the world is 6000 years old +/- 1000 years and nothing (no religion) or anything happened before it.... which we all know is complete and utterly bull shit. BUt there are MANY MANY MANY people in the world who believe this to this day. On a positive note, Atheist is the fastest growing belief in the US! |
| my name is ryker | |
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| The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom | May 31 2014, 09:02 PM Post #25 |
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
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Haha well yeah, atheists aren't the only ones who find fundamentalists irritating. |
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| Incog | May 31 2014, 09:38 PM Post #26 |
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CHEERIO!
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I was thinking about this thread earlier today in the train. I forgot what my point was going to be though. I guess something is better than nothing? |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| ryker | May 31 2014, 10:37 PM Post #27 |
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I guess my point isn't the fact that new world creationist are irritating as many other forms of Christianity also find them irritating. Just like west bro baptist church is thought irritating by other forms of Christianity, and catholic, Lutheran, etc. for that mater. Pretty much any form of Christianity can be found irritating by another form of Christianity. What annoys me most however, and the point of my post is that they have no form of logic when it comes to religion. They all agree that god created the heavens and earth out of nothing and say that is good enough, then criticize science for the big bang theory. At least science doesn't say ,"the big bang theory happened because i really believe it, I can feel it. I talked to the cosmos and they told me in a dream or vision." Science approach to the BBT (as well as many other theories of the origins of the universe are much more logical. They say it is probable based off of evidence but we are still uncertain. We will continue to research and look until we find more compelling evidence that proves it or disproves it at which point we look for something else based off the evidence. |
| my name is ryker | |
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| gs | Jun 1 2014, 02:10 AM Post #28 |
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Slow down
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i don't, and what are these serious consequences you speak of? i don't blame people for giving into the fear of not being in control and believing things that tell them they are. i don't respect it though, from a philosophical point of view, not in 2014. listening to lazy answers because emotions get in the way of logical thought is a clear sign of someone not worth discussing philosophy with. our consciousness gives rise to something that doesn't follow the rules (order?) of the universe?? where are you getting that lol, that's so insanely out there. 1. why would we humans, a logical (and predictable) outcome of energy and atoms interacting with each other suddenly have a brain that is intelligent enough to rise above the rules of the universe. how can material that follows the rules of the universe even create something that breaks them? 2. if there is something driving our consciousness then it's influenced by that, and we still don't have "free will". and if there's nothing driving our consciousness then it does happen (and act) without cause. |
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| Incog | Jun 1 2014, 05:41 AM Post #29 |
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CHEERIO!
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Sal. Didn't Sal also proclaim his atheism? Instead of a devout bunch of Christians though, his family was a devout bunch of Muslims. How did that end up turning out ? |
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Black tulip Tribute to the the greatest of the great. | |
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| Jack the IV | Jun 1 2014, 07:49 AM Post #30 |
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The Gent's Club
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Serious consequences being that hard determinism is true. Our whole life is already mapped out ahead of us and we are powerless to change it. Hitler wasn't a bad man, he was just a chemical reaction. And my other point isn't really out there as it gives a solution to the unsolvable problem of free will. You are under the assumption that we live in a computer simulation, so rules cannot be broken. Just because we observe a certain set of rules does not mean they are always in effect. You have a consciousness; you can think. It seems way too easy to write it off as just something that arises out of a chemical and physical reaction. |
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In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains, On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows, In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before defend him. | |
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