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Athiest
Topic Started: May 30 2014, 05:21 PM (1,284 Views)
The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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I am a thoroughly estimable traveller.
Jam
 
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ryker
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Jul 26 2014, 02:26 AM
I am an annoyingly persistent spammer.
: (crown) just kidding!!! toast
my name is ryker
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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ryker omg

auto-correct keeps changing your name to Tyler lol
Jam
 
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Jam
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Jul 26 2014, 04:09 AM
ryker omg

auto-correct keeps changing your name to Tyler lol
I'm gng to mss wth y'r atocrret by remoing letrs
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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Typing on a phone can be incredibly frustrating,
Jam
 
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Jam
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http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5u9kcb0fu1r7nntv.gif
Long live Carolus
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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I was thinking about something, but then I forgot what I was thinking about.
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ryker
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Yes, my name is not auto correct friendly.

And forgetting what you were thinking about gets worse with age. I notice it happening more all the time and I'm not even 30 yet....
my name is ryker
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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ryker
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I did it! I finally convinced my wife that my atheistic view of the world and how we came together is more romantic than her religious view that "God" made us for each other! This is a great day! Maybe my kids will not have to go to church in the near future? LOL. No, my wife still believes in god, but she admitted that my version of how we came together without god is more romantic. I actually want my kids to go to church though. I won't tell them I am atheist until my youngest graduated from high school (although I am sure they will figure it out way before then). I want them to make their own decision on what they believe. It is after all, one of the best gifts I can give my wife since she has been so accepting of my change of beliefs since we got married, I know that probably isn't easy on her. We have agreed that they will go to church and learn about Christianity but I will not try to convince them otherwise. On the flip side, if they decide to follow the my s, she has promised not to be mad and hold it against me. She already knows our son will be atheist some day. He is to logical, asks to many questions, is so literal on everything, that he will rule religion out sooner or later in life with logic.

Wow, I got off subject there, anyway, I convinced her my atheistic/scientific version was more romantic ;)

On another side note, my dog keeps farting and it is literally one of the most disgusting things I have ever smelled.....
my name is ryker
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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Gj ryker
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gs
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nice that can't have been easy
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ryker
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I actually went about it from what we were talking about in nothing is random, everything is based off of cause and effect. Even down to the atomic level, an atom will act a certain way because of the environment it is in, which is affected by everything in it. Because of that, everything that has happened and everything that will happen was decided at the creation of the universe. That means that from the exact moment that the big bang happened over 14 billion years ago, everything happened because of something that happened before it. it was destined that we would be together, decided 14 billion years ago. The movement of every atom, every star born, every star that has died, every planet in existence, every universe created, every violent and every beautiful event, contributed over the course of 14 billion years to us being together, but it was all decided at that very point of the creation of existence. No god needed, just the existence of space and time itself, scientific laws, some we know, others yet to be discovered, all decided at that beautiful moment over 14 billion years ago.
Edited by ryker, Aug 9 2014, 10:26 PM.
my name is ryker
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Jam
 
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Jam
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Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
Long live Carolus
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ryker
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Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
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Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
HAHA I both like that description and dislike it Jam.

Ultra, it isn't the free will portion she found romantic but rather the destiny in the making.
my name is ryker
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gs
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Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
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Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
well said

speaking of the concept of free will, i don't understand how, even if a random event inside your brain that you would have no influence over caused a choice you made, that could be considered "your" free will? after all, it's completely random which means it's not influenced by any context specific to you.
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ryker
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But we have argued that nothing is truly random. This means that in all reality, either there is no free will, or you simply always choose the right answer.

The ONLY thing I don't like about jams statement is that I can no longer, in my right mind, use the argument of lack of free will when arguing with a creationist. My argument has always been either you have free will, or you beleive in an all powerful deity, you cant have your cake and eat it too. Since Jam just pointed out a valid argument that really makes mine void (as it fits for both all powerful deity and no random acts happen) it is hard to use it in an argument unless I accept that there truly are random acts.
my name is ryker
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
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Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
But there's no way her decision to marry ryker can be attributed to her agency. The marriage was the outcome of external influences which neither of them controlled. There was no 'choice' being made; she just did what she couldn't possibly have avoided doing.
Jam
 
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gs
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Quote:
 
But we have argued that nothing is truly random. This means that in all reality, either there is no free will, or you simply always choose the right answer.
i'm saying free will cannot exist either way, because randomness still doesn't make it "your" decision. wasn't talking to anyone in particular
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gs
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barely related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EilZ4VY5Vs
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Jam
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Aug 10 2014, 04:21 PM
Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
But there's no way her decision to marry ryker can be attributed to her agency. The marriage was the outcome of external influences which neither of them controlled. There was no 'choice' being made; she just did what she couldn't possibly have avoided doing.
Marrying Ryker was her will and she was free to pursue it. Her will was predetermined by external and internal influences because the brain is a part of the same physical system as the 'external'. We're all part of the same system, so you could call it the will of the universe or divided it up into 'my will' and 'your will' because will typically refers to conscious systems.

Two rocks hurtling through space towards one another cannot change their course, they will collide and influence each other, probably chipping off new rocks. Likewise, Ryker and his wife hurtled through life until they met, influenced each others wills into marriage, and produced children. And that's where the phrase 'a chip off the old block' comes from.
Edited by Jam, Aug 10 2014, 05:22 PM.
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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Quote:
 
Marrying Ryker was her will and she was free to pursue it. Her will was predetermined by external and internal influences because the brain is a part of the same physical system as the 'external'. We're all part of the same system, so you could call it the will of the universe or divided it up into 'my will' and 'your will' because will typically refers to conscious systems.


That doesn't hold up considering how the workings of the brain along with the brain itself are all determined by external factors. You can divide up the universe any way you like, but so long as things remain interconnected, truly independent actions are about as realistic as truly closed systems.
Jam
 
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ryker
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Aug 10 2014, 04:21 PM
Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
But there's no way her decision to marry ryker can be attributed to her agency. The marriage was the outcome of external influences which neither of them controlled. There was no 'choice' being made; she just did what she couldn't possibly have avoided doing.
And to a woman who has been married to her husband for going on 8 years, who within the past couple of years came out as an borderline atheist (minimum of full blown agnostic) when he was a devout christian when they married; that is what is romantic about it. I have shown her a way that we aren't meaningless in a scientific way of looking at it. When I told her about my doubts of the existence of god and then later my almost certainty, it was hard for her. Before, we were together because god made us for each other. Without that, we were nothing but chance. Pointless, she could have just as easily found someone else. There was nothing magical about it. What I did for her was show her we were still meant to be together, god or no god. I took away our belief in god, but gave her back something else.
my name is ryker
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ryker
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gs
Aug 10 2014, 04:29 PM
Quote:
 
But we have argued that nothing is truly random. This means that in all reality, either there is no free will, or you simply always choose the right answer.
i'm saying free will cannot exist either way, because randomness still doesn't make it "your" decision. wasn't talking to anyone in particular
got ya
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Jam
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Aug 10 2014, 06:04 PM
Quote:
 
Marrying Ryker was her will and she was free to pursue it. Her will was predetermined by external and internal influences because the brain is a part of the same physical system as the 'external'. We're all part of the same system, so you could call it the will of the universe or divided it up into 'my will' and 'your will' because will typically refers to conscious systems.


That doesn't hold up considering how the workings of the brain along with the brain itself are all determined by external factors. You can divide up the universe any way you like, but so long as things remain interconnected, truly independent actions are about as realistic as truly closed systems.
I didn't say the brain functions independently or is a closed system, I said we're all part of the same system so it doesn't make sense to say the brain is controlled by external influences as though it does not influence itself. It is another gear in the machine which is turned by the gears before it and turns the gears after it, but it's a very complicated gear and how it functions is dependent on its internal mechanism. The brain is a reference point. To you, my brain is a part of your external influence, but to me that influence is my will because I experience it.
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ryker
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I think therefore I am
my name is ryker
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gs
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ryker
Aug 10 2014, 06:52 PM
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Aug 10 2014, 04:21 PM
Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
But there's no way her decision to marry ryker can be attributed to her agency. The marriage was the outcome of external influences which neither of them controlled. There was no 'choice' being made; she just did what she couldn't possibly have avoided doing.
And to a woman who has been married to her husband for going on 8 years, who within the past couple of years came out as an borderline atheist (minimum of full blown agnostic) when he was a devout christian when they married; that is what is romantic about it. I have shown her a way that we aren't meaningless in a scientific way of looking at it. When I told her about my doubts of the existence of god and then later my almost certainty, it was hard for her. Before, we were together because god made us for each other. Without that, we were nothing but chance. Pointless, she could have just as easily found someone else. There was nothing magical about it. What I did for her was show her we were still meant to be together, god or no god. I took away our belief in god, but gave her back something else.
i get that your wife thinks this, but do you also believe you were actually "meant to be together"?

also watch that video i linked i want you guys' opinions on the part about nothing not actually being nothing. i feel like he fails to answer an important question:
sure, the "empty space" that we observe around us contains things we can't observe, but then why is he calling it nothing? nothing the way i look at it is a theoretical vacuum where even dark matter/energy doesn't exist. in the end, this unobservable mass and energy has to have come from somewhere as well, which is a mystery that he doesn't even address. am i missing something?

jam brings up a good point, which is that within the scope of our experience we absolutely do have free will. even if our choices are predetermined, as long as we experience it as a choice then it was a choice. after all, a different brain would have made a different choice.
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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ryker
Aug 10 2014, 09:03 PM
I think therefore I am
Just because there are thoughts doesn't mean there is someone thinking them.

Marmalade
 
I didn't say the brain functions independently or is a closed system, I said we're all part of the same system so it doesn't make sense to say the brain is controlled by external influences as though it does not influence itself. It is another gear in the machine which is turned by the gears before it and turns the gears after it, but it's a very complicated gear and how it functions is dependent on its internal mechanism. The brain is a reference point. To you, my brain is a part of your external influence, but to me that influence is my will because I experience it.


But the brain is controlled by external influences. The brain's ability to influence it's own actions is itself the result of factors outside of its control. I don't see how this makes it possibly for us to say that people are 'free' to pursue anything.
Jam
 
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ryker
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gs
Aug 10 2014, 09:48 PM
ryker
Aug 10 2014, 06:52 PM
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Aug 10 2014, 04:21 PM
Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
But there's no way her decision to marry ryker can be attributed to her agency. The marriage was the outcome of external influences which neither of them controlled. There was no 'choice' being made; she just did what she couldn't possibly have avoided doing.
And to a woman who has been married to her husband for going on 8 years, who within the past couple of years came out as an borderline atheist (minimum of full blown agnostic) when he was a devout christian when they married; that is what is romantic about it. I have shown her a way that we aren't meaningless in a scientific way of looking at it. When I told her about my doubts of the existence of god and then later my almost certainty, it was hard for her. Before, we were together because god made us for each other. Without that, we were nothing but chance. Pointless, she could have just as easily found someone else. There was nothing magical about it. What I did for her was show her we were still meant to be together, god or no god. I took away our belief in god, but gave her back something else.
i get that your wife thinks this, but do you also believe you were actually "meant to be together"?

also watch that video i linked i want you guys' opinions on the part about nothing not actually being nothing. i feel like he fails to answer an important question:
sure, the "empty space" that we observe around us contains things we can't observe, but then why is he calling it nothing? nothing the way i look at it is a theoretical vacuum where even dark matter/energy doesn't exist. in the end, this unobservable mass and energy has to have come from somewhere as well, which is a mystery that he doesn't even address. am i missing something?

jam brings up a good point, which is that within the scope of our experience we absolutely do have free will. even if our choices are predetermined, as long as we experience it as a choice then it was a choice. after all, a different brain would have made a different choice.
No I don't, but a happy wife means a happy life :) Relationships are give and take. I took a lot when I decided to change my religious beliefs after getting married. I have to give something back to her on this one, this is my way of doing it. She knows I don't necessarily believe we were "destined" to be together. I think there logically was no other outcome because everything was the cause of something preceding it and all causes are the reason for the effect that happens just following it. She sees it as destined, I see it as logic. Either way, it shows her that I really do care enough to try to think of something for her. In the end, when in a strong relationship, that is what maters most.

So you believe that since you experience it as a choice even though the path has already been written, it is therefore free will? Not sure if I believe this. I think it is the illusion of free will. Not different than a fish living in a fishbowl not knowing there is anything more since it has never known any different. Just because you feel the illusion, does not make it real.
my name is ryker
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