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Athiest
Topic Started: May 30 2014, 05:21 PM (1,282 Views)
ryker
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ryker
Aug 10 2014, 09:03 PM
I think therefore I am
Just because there are thoughts doesn't mean there is someone thinking them.

It was just a blank statement summing up what I understood the conversation to be headed.

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Marmalade
 
I didn't say the brain functions independently or is a closed system, I said we're all part of the same system so it doesn't make sense to say the brain is controlled by external influences as though it does not influence itself. It is another gear in the machine which is turned by the gears before it and turns the gears after it, but it's a very complicated gear and how it functions is dependent on its internal mechanism. The brain is a reference point. To you, my brain is a part of your external influence, but to me that influence is my will because I experience it.


But the brain is controlled by external influences. The brain's ability to influence it's own actions is itself the result of factors outside of its control. I don't see how this makes it possibly for us to say that people are 'free' to pursue anything.


I am in agreance with ultra, because my opinion is that free will is simply an illusion. Like a magic trick, just because the illusion seems real, does not make it so. There is more at work behind the scenes to give you what you see on the surface that make the illusion itself seem real.
my name is ryker
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gs
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ryker
Aug 10 2014, 11:36 PM
gs
Aug 10 2014, 09:48 PM
ryker
Aug 10 2014, 06:52 PM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 10 2014, 04:21 PM
Jam
Aug 10 2014, 04:34 AM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 9 2014, 11:39 PM
Does she find it romantic that she married you without exercising her free will?
Determinism doesn't mean you don't exercise free will, its just means you always choose the right answer.
But there's no way her decision to marry ryker can be attributed to her agency. The marriage was the outcome of external influences which neither of them controlled. There was no 'choice' being made; she just did what she couldn't possibly have avoided doing.
And to a woman who has been married to her husband for going on 8 years, who within the past couple of years came out as an borderline atheist (minimum of full blown agnostic) when he was a devout christian when they married; that is what is romantic about it. I have shown her a way that we aren't meaningless in a scientific way of looking at it. When I told her about my doubts of the existence of god and then later my almost certainty, it was hard for her. Before, we were together because god made us for each other. Without that, we were nothing but chance. Pointless, she could have just as easily found someone else. There was nothing magical about it. What I did for her was show her we were still meant to be together, god or no god. I took away our belief in god, but gave her back something else.
i get that your wife thinks this, but do you also believe you were actually "meant to be together"?

also watch that video i linked i want you guys' opinions on the part about nothing not actually being nothing. i feel like he fails to answer an important question:
sure, the "empty space" that we observe around us contains things we can't observe, but then why is he calling it nothing? nothing the way i look at it is a theoretical vacuum where even dark matter/energy doesn't exist. in the end, this unobservable mass and energy has to have come from somewhere as well, which is a mystery that he doesn't even address. am i missing something?

jam brings up a good point, which is that within the scope of our experience we absolutely do have free will. even if our choices are predetermined, as long as we experience it as a choice then it was a choice. after all, a different brain would have made a different choice.
No I don't, but a happy wife means a happy life :) Relationships are give and take. I took a lot when I decided to change my religious beliefs after getting married. I have to give something back to her on this one, this is my way of doing it. She knows I don't necessarily believe we were "destined" to be together. I think there logically was no other outcome because everything was the cause of something preceding it and all causes are the reason for the effect that happens just following it. She sees it as destined, I see it as logic. Either way, it shows her that I really do care enough to try to think of something for her. In the end, when in a strong relationship, that is what maters most.

So you believe that since you experience it as a choice even though the path has already been written, it is therefore free will? Not sure if I believe this. I think it is the illusion of free will. Not different than a fish living in a fishbowl not knowing there is anything more since it has never known any different. Just because you feel the illusion, does not make it real.
we have free will within the scope of our own experience, which in this context can be argued to be the only scope that matters. as long as we don't have any means of gathering all the information that leads up to a choice someone makes, no one will be able to predict it meaning it, from the perspective of our civilisation, is a free choice.

but of course this is only the illusion of free will, as you pointed out. actual free will is a logical fallacy in itself because even if there were random events inside our brain, our decisions would be a result of that random event which means it wasn't even our choice, let alone an independent choice.
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gs
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just gonna leave this here; a time when the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light
Lawrence Krauss
 
In 5 billion years, the expansion of the universe will have progressed to the point where all other galaxies will have receded beyond detection. Indeed, they will be receding faster than the speed of light, so detection will be impossible. Future civilizations will discover science and all the laws of physics, and never know about other galaxies or the cosmic background radiation. They will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion about the universe......We live in a special time, the only time where we can observationally verify that we live in a special time.
makes me wonder about the amount of information we ourselves will always be unable to observe
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
That depends on whether the expansion of the universe will continue accelerating. Scientists don't fully understand the significance of dark energy, so the ultimate fate of the universe is still uncertain.

Just thought I should point that out ^_^
Jam
 
It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes
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gs
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watch the video i linked. based on what we currently know, if nothing wildly unexpected happens it will inevitably come to that. but yeah nothing is certain, let's not go there though. the point is there is probably lots of info out there that we can't observe which will make us draw the wrong conclusions about the universe, just like a potential civilisation 5 billion years into the future would.
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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What video lol
Jam
 
It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes
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gs
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gs
Aug 10 2014, 05:02 PM
sigh, shit like this makes me regret not studying physics.
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
Is there any particular part of the video that you'd like to draw attention to?
Jam
 
It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes
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gs
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primarily
Quote:
 
also watch that video i linked i want you guys' opinions on the part about nothing not actually being nothing. i feel like he fails to answer an important question:
sure, the "empty space" that we observe around us contains things we can't observe, but then why is he calling it nothing? nothing the way i look at it is a theoretical vacuum where even dark matter/energy doesn't exist. in the end, this unobservable mass and energy has to have come from somewhere as well, which is a mystery that he doesn't even address. am i missing something?

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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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:OOOOOOOOOOOOMAAANN
Which part is that
Jam
 
It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes
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gs
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somewhere halfway but he leads up to it so just watch it from the start nub, it's good stuff
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Jam
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Fruit Based Jam
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 10 2014, 11:08 PM
Marmalade
 
I didn't say the brain functions independently or is a closed system, I said we're all part of the same system so it doesn't make sense to say the brain is controlled by external influences as though it does not influence itself. It is another gear in the machine which is turned by the gears before it and turns the gears after it, but it's a very complicated gear and how it functions is dependent on its internal mechanism. The brain is a reference point. To you, my brain is a part of your external influence, but to me that influence is my will because I experience it.


But the brain is controlled by external influences. The brain's ability to influence it's own actions is itself the result of factors outside of its control. I don't see how this makes it possibly for us to say that people are 'free' to pursue anything.
It doesn't make sense to say that the brain has no influence over itself. If I isolate the frontal lobe and include every other part of the brain with the external influences then I can say that the frontal lobe is controlled by external influences which include the other parts of the brain. So why can I say that the brain influences itself? It's just an arbitrary separation of the universe into parts in order to looks at the role of one specific part in the system of cause and effect. I look at myself as separate from the rest of the universe because it is my will to do so. My will to do so was predetermined by the long chain of cause and effect that cause my brain to turn out the way it did, and my will will determine how other things turn out because I am a part of that chain of cause and effect. I am the B in A,B,C. I have a will because I experience being B, that will is free because I am not the end of the alphabet. None of this contradicts cause and effect or means that free will is not an illusion.
Long live Carolus
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The_Fry_Cook_of_Doom
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Jam
Aug 11 2014, 06:42 PM
Ultra-Musketeer
Aug 10 2014, 11:08 PM
Marmalade
 
I didn't say the brain functions independently or is a closed system, I said we're all part of the same system so it doesn't make sense to say the brain is controlled by external influences as though it does not influence itself. It is another gear in the machine which is turned by the gears before it and turns the gears after it, but it's a very complicated gear and how it functions is dependent on its internal mechanism. The brain is a reference point. To you, my brain is a part of your external influence, but to me that influence is my will because I experience it.


But the brain is controlled by external influences. The brain's ability to influence it's own actions is itself the result of factors outside of its control. I don't see how this makes it possibly for us to say that people are 'free' to pursue anything.
It doesn't make sense to say that the brain has no influence over itself. If I isolate the frontal lobe and include every other part of the brain with the external influences then I can say that the frontal lobe is controlled by external influences which include the other parts of the brain. So why can I say that the brain influences itself? It's just an arbitrary separation of the universe into parts in order to looks at the role of one specific part in the system of cause and effect. I look at myself as separate from the rest of the universe because it is my will to do so. My will to do so was predetermined by the long chain of cause and effect that cause my brain to turn out the way it did, and my will will determine how other things turn out because I am a part of that chain of cause and effect. I am the B in A,B,C. I have a will because I experience being B, that will is free because I am not the end of the alphabet. None of this contradicts cause and effect or means that free will is not an illusion.
k
Jam
 
It's okay to be mad at your fiends sometimes
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Ichigo1uk
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Huh?
With Robin Williams dead, i feel like there's no denying that god doesn't exist.
Incog
Jan 19 2012, 05:34 PM
I think unicorns have a higher chance of existing than gods do. I mean, if a mare fell into the ocean and a narwhal raped it, then the mare might just give birth to a unicorn.
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Incog
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CHEERIO!

Ichigo1uk
Aug 11 2014, 11:31 PM
With Robin Williams dead, i feel like there's no denying that god doesn't exist.
yeah that kind of sucks

RIP
Black tulip

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