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ECU- piggyback and full standalone; which one?
Topic Started: Aug 6 2008, 01:44 AM (2,214 Views)
chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
Since there's been a few questions on whether an ecu works on the AE111 or how good piggybacks are, i thought i'd post up something here...

let me start with full standalone..

to get a full "blank" standalone to operate on a street car and make it drive as nice with same fuel economy, takes a lot to be done..
you'll be spending the whole day the moment when you turn the key, then idle, there's cold idle, warm idle, idle with aircon, idle with high electricity load... etc.. then you've got open loop, full throttle, closed loop map, knock detect, altitude, temperature, moisture.......

the tune to make ur street car to drive as nice as came from the factory will probably take you a whole year to complete.
hell you could even get a Motec, and you've got so many parameters to tune it'll probably drive you crazy
not so much of a problem with race cars though, since they'll only run on certain tracks, with throttle almost always wide open.
to get your full standalone tune to be as nice as a stock ecu when you do a U turn at night with aircon on, idling just as well and cruising fuel economy is not affected, you've done a great job

however, it's very adjustable, and you can play around with sensors... the biggest challange of a standalone is not tuning open loop max power. but streetability and comfort/smoothness.

Now, car specific standalone:
Our ae111s dont have the luxury of Power fc. it's a full standalone, with pre-tuned maps, took care of all the headaches mentioned above for you from brand new. you could argue power fc's map resolution, but apexi's vmax drag car runs a powerfc with still afm setup.. and it makes like almost 1000hp?
only ecu that's available to ae111, simillar to PFC with the above headaches taken care of already is freedom ecu, but theres almost no tuners of freedom ecu outside japan, plus it costs almost double of PFC

things like mine's ecu, tom's ecu are all remapped stock ecus, so they wouldnt have to worry about the streetability problems.

freedom ecu and powerfc lets you plug it on, turn the key, drive it to get it tuned.
PowerFC will be my first choice of ecu if available.

Piggyback next
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
also got to remember that, heltech, link, autronic and motec can be used for our AE111, but they are bit expensive... the people who sell them will make custom wiring looms for our cars...

also you can get standalone ecu's with auto learn fuction to reduce the time to tune the car and make the ecu do all the adjustments...
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
all the ecus will come with wiring harness for different cars, while a lot of them will run a 4AGE 20v, whether you'll need to splice it into your ecu or plug n play is a different story, but it shouldn't be a major problem for anyone anyway, as long as you have factory ecu pinout and know how to use a soldering iron..

i've heard of the auto learn on some ecus, honestly i dont really know how good/accurate it is compared to say power fc or freedom with close loop maps for car specific compatible with stock sensors.. some will need changing of the sensors to the ecu's specific sensors which is added cost.. eg. the oxygen sensor for haltech for it to run closed loop....

but i haven't had experience or used ecu with that function.. so please feel free to input your knowledge and put in any further information on the ecus, hopefully this thread will turn out helpful so people can search for answers through here, and help people on their decision, and of course, feel free to update/correct

now the piggyback..

there are 2 major types of piggyback, starting with the most simpliest AFC style which is by bending AFM/MAP sensor signal, some controls ignition but I only know SITC which does that..
examples of these are Apexi SAFC, AFC neo, E-manage blue without harness kit, field SFC-R, Billion VFC-pro, Pivot air controller-R, Apexi SITC, Blitz R-FIT
this type works on some cars, but not AE111..
some times you'll run into situations where it's too lean and advanced, or too rich but retarded, so these piggybacks that "trick" the stock ecu is a compromise.. these work the best with AFM type of cars, not so great with MAP, and not with ae111 ecu.. the AE111 ecu runs on maps with 3 axis, xy and z, through other sensor feedback (knock sensor, O2 sensor) it'll know that the map signal is altered, and will correct it back to its intended settings...
these ecus even won't work on some newer AFM type cars, such as V35 skylines... newer the cars are, the more accurate the sensors read. hence smarter ecus are, some will even go into protection mode as soon as it detects some sensor reading is out of ordinary...

the other type of piggyback works a bit differently, such as E-manage/E-manage ultimate with full injector/ignition harness, HKS F-con IS, it directly controls/the ignition and injectors, which overcomes the previously mentioned problems that the more basic piggyback ECU have.

it's not all about bending signals and tricking ECU, instead it lets the signals go into ecu and ecu makes a decision on injector and ignition timing. when the ecu sends a signal out to trigger the injectors or ignition, the piggyback computer will intercept the output signal and alter it according to its map. so for arguments sake the stock ecu advances the timing by 10 degrees, you've setup the piggyback to +3 degrees at this rpm/map sensor reading, so it will be +13 degrees.
the stock ecu will take care of close loop and other comfort related things such as idling, and this type of piggyback will still allow you to adjust it according to your desired setting.

downfall on these piggyback ecu is you won't be able to adjust certain things, such as rev limiter, speed limiter, fuel cutoff when boost raises over a certain level.. but you can overcome that by other aftermarket electronic products such as Apexi RSM, Bee-R rev limiter remover.. etc. while E-manage ultimate has a built in rev limiter adjuster anyway.

due to some full ECU's ability, or complex of tuning for streetability like i've mentioned in the first post, it is not uncommon to see a lot of full standalone ECUs wired to the stock ECU and used as piggyback.
it lets the stock ecu control climate/electricity load changes/closed loop etc, and they'll work on fine adjustments to injector/ignition signals like e-manage. An example is Microtech LT-8 (intended standalone), being used as piggyback; I've also seen 1 Haltech used as piggyback on a wrx as well.

as for how far a piggyback lilke e-manage can go? I dont really have many examples of e-manage out there, most recent one that i know of is R's Racing service in Japan uses e-manage blue with suzuki swift sports supercharger kit, it extracted 190ps from what is normally a 125ps motor. refer to: http://www.rsrs.jp/en/engine/zc11.html
another example is a piggyback microtech LT8 on a red local MR-2 AW11 with 4AGTE, it pulled 250hp at the wheel, and its in full trim, car's also used as a daily commuter

irietuning
Aug 6 2008, 07:27 AM
Greddy do an ecu called the v-manage, im not too sure but i think it is specific for vtec/vvti and maybe vvt applications
the V-manage allows VVT control of certain vehicles, such as MIVEC, VVTi, nissan CVTC, honda i-VTEC, subaru AVCS.. its a shame though that it's not compatible with ae111 according to the trust website... hell it's not even compatible with VTEC

trust also makes the new F-Manage, it's an ecu where you can put in your desired Air/fuel Ratio, it'll then adjust the signals to achieve the desired AFR in certain rpm/load range..
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AceSniper
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self learn ecus are useless if you use the stock narrow band o2 sensor, with a wideband wired into it you will get a "drivable" map, followed by road tuning... turn self learn off... go over the a/f, lean for cruising and rich for power.

The road tune I did with my wideband was safe and pulled 119kw on the dyno, after 3-4hours on the dyno with a tuner it had 125kw way more mid (as I only tuned cruse and foot to the floor)

all you need to make vvt work is a rpm switch, turn it off after 6200rpm, and anything over 25% throttle to turn it on.

One good reason to go full aftermarket is large cams most piggybacks wont be able to keep a stable idle, and turbo were injectors and the VE of the engine fully changes
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kyleseo
Stage 5

There was an ae111 freedom ecu on the yahoo auctions a while ago, ecu, harness, software, laptop.... the works, went for big bucks! Apparently buggers to map though, even one of the jap blokes on club4age couldn't get it to work properly!

As mentioned the ultimate can raise the rev limit. It should also be able to remove any speed limits set my fuel cut by driving the injectors past that duty. Not 100% sure on that though.
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
i reckon injector's a big one..
some piggybacks do support injector change, some don't..
some claim they do, but depends on the injector again...

Ae111blast
Aug 6 2008, 03:40 PM
I was thinking of going standalone but sounds like a total ball ache, my bro has a ultimate i can use so may go for that!

I was under the influence that bee r limiters didn't remove the rev limit! You can just bring it in earlier!?!
just double checked the bee-R website and you're right, it can't override factory rev limit...

oh well, that just means i'll upgrade to e-manage ultimate if i do engine work
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DreadAngel
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Han Lue
I'm pretty set on the Haltech E8 la, after looking at all the options and how good its done for a few BT 20Vs (Ben's and Kev's included) it seems the only logical choice if you've spent big on your engine...
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
my first choice will be HKS F-Con pro (cheaper), then Autronic SM4....
i heard the HKS can be fitted to our car...

i still prefer standalone ecu's, and yes it can be hell trying to tune the ecu... but hey, that's what you're paying and getting. also the full benefits of every single performance parts added to your car will be maximised...
a "good" tuner will tune the ecu... not yourself anyway.... so if you got and found a "good" tuner then sure he'll do all the adjustments...

and auto learn can be convenient if you can't or don't have a good tuner... but then again it won't maximise the engine full potential...
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AceSniper
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tuner that did my car has just done a stock blacktop with a microtech ecu, the stock ecu the dyno was at 84kw, with the ecu it was 88kw

remember a ecu is only to support your internal engine mods
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
Ace,
the Microtech.. what do you reckon?
i've heard a lot of ya and neys about the microtech, my tuner maytech actually recommends it, he said that it does take a bit of work to get it to idle fine, but it achievable and shouldnt be a problem at all as long as the tuner's experienced. but said it should be used for racing only since it doesnt have closed loop map, or can just be used as piggyback, overall awesome ecu for its money..
he pulled 210 rwKW out of an r33 gts-t with a stock turbo running 12psi (max efficiency for r33 gtst anyway) with other supportive mods such as fuel pump, intercooler etc... and 250 4wHP out of a celica GT4, again on stock turbo, then the 4agte aw11 which i've mentioned previously, which uses a rebuilt BB RB30 turbo from VL commodore
and apparently they work real good with rotary engines too...
but then i've heard from others bagging it out.. for no real convincing reason, like "it's cheap", "lebs use it"...

what are people's thoughts on the microtech?? and everyone else?
i know it's only got 16x16 maps, no close loop, and maybe also no idle control? unsure about that last one..

Just thought i'd bring it up since it seems to be a good value for money standalone ECU..

The HKS F-con V pro is an awesome ecu, problem with it in Sydney is only BD4s in Sydney has the tuner software Power Writer for it. the HKS distributor here is only limits some exclusive shops to have access to tune it, and the only one that does that i know of in syd is BD4s, which charges an arm and a leg... like real expensive..
for the guys in Sydney, I've also heard a few years back that the tuner Tom from BD4s is an awesome tuner, and he was the master who taught the guys originally from Bel performance to tune ecus, including Ben from Touge tune... this was just something i was told a few years back, unsure how true this is, but I've heard Tom from BD4s is one good tuner...

One other thing i thought it's pretty true, like what BZ-G was implying, is that doesn't matter what ecu you get, it'll only be as good as the tuner. so depends on who you pick as your tuner, and what your tuner prefers, are the biggest factors in your ecu selection..

for me, I like to do everything to my car if i can, if not then still get partially involved in it if possible (not in a sexual way), so i can learn from it.. i'm still thinking whether I'll goto Maytech or Touge tune to get it done, currently leaning towards Maytech since he's got all my historical Dyno graphs filed up so i can do comparisons and i can watch him do the tune while he can go through the tune with me.
on the other hand, Ben from touge tune is a top bloke and is also experienced with e-manage tuning as well, so it's a hard call for me.

DreadAngel
Aug 8 2008, 02:15 AM
Microtech is alright imo, but to me it ranks with the likes of stuff like Wolf 3D etc. Its alright but there are better products out there or similar/higher price. Which Microtech you looking at la?

Still, there is a difference between Piggyback and Standalone. Piggyback is limited by its accuracy and precision built into its interception method while Standalone ECU limitations are dependent on what features the ECU support. I highly doubt the E-Manage would be able to control my old Civic, probably be fine with the B16A and JR SC if I went down that route but it wouldn't handle my other setup...
well the microtech would be LT8 if its for ae111...
reason why i mentioned it is its good value for money, for a standalone

in terms of piggyback, logically speaking precision may be a bit of problem, but in practice it may not be, but again depends on a million factors...
i think it'll be ok as far IHE mods go, plus a bit of adjustment in camgear.

i think that the e-manage ultimate will probably be able to handle heavily tuned vehicle fine as long as the adjustments are done properly, but never done that so i'm really just guessing... anyone whose tried piggyback on something heavily tuned, all feedbacks or experience welcome
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bzr97
Stage 3
Hi Guys

Glad this topic has been brought up!

With AE111s we have pretty much very limted list of options with regards to "plug in" aftermarket computers either piggy back or stand alone. I have looked at few options out there and to me it seems like the E&E Systems Freedom ECU is a great piece of gear and not that overly expensive considering the amount of potential that it has and ease of fitment At the current AUD$ rates i think it s roughly around $1,600.00. From reading Moto's article on Club4AGE site(http://www.club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Moto-P_Part2.html) it sounds like you can pretty much plug it in to the loom and have it cranking right away. The only thing that i consider as an obticle is that all its software is in Japanese only. Now..... if you live outside Japan(this computer is only designed for JDM) for example in Australia or Sydney more precisely who is out there in the tuning market capable of tuning this type of gear?? I personally haven't had any experience with the process of tuning aftermarket ECUs, pretty much a novice with base understanding. I try to do all the mods on my car by myself apart from engine internals or things like wheel alliginment, where you require specialist equipment. I simply dont trust a lot of them places out there, as most the time you pay your hard earn for them to bodgy things up. There might be few decent ppl(old established names with quality) out there who are solid, but majority of these wanna be workshops are just a waste of time and money. Most the time you spend more money fixing mechanics f---ups!

Apologies guys if i drifted slightly off topic.....

Chickluvit, you have mentioned Tom from BD4s, I have also heard a little while back that there is a guy from BD4s (HKS tuner) and is one of the top tuners in OZ. I'm not sure which magazine i've read it in, maybe the HP imports , but i think he is also the same guy who knows Japanese and does the tuning of HKS ECUs. not 100%sure though. Supposedly he went to HKS Japan HQ and got specialy trained on their equipment there.

I'm just thinking if I were to buy the Freedom ECU, would there be any decent tuners out there in Sydney who know Japanese and be able to tune the thing at some stage of my mods. With so much JDM aftermarket stuff out there on the market these days i presume hopefully there is someone who is capable of doing it. Any of the guys based in Sydney heard of who is.

cheers!
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chiksluvit
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first of all freedom ecu apparently isn't really user friendly even for native japanese tuners...

since you're in sydney you do have a lot of choices in terms of local offerings... but it won't be a simple plug and play like the freedom ecus...
Edited by chiksluvit, Jun 28 2009, 05:40 AM.
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turboae111
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Stage 4
BZ-G
Jun 25 2009, 03:46 AM
just to point out the main brands which does piggyback ECU's for our AE111 are:
E-manage
E-manage Ultimate (best option)
SAFC
AFC neo
HKS F-con iS
Mircotech


and Standalone ECU's:
Motec
Autronic
Link
Microtech
Haltech
HKS F-con V pro
Freedom
What about best choice and best price for standalone ECU??
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
hahaha... standalone are pretty expensive whichever one you choose... hence why I didn’t mention which one is the best…
Motec will probably be the most expensive... while Link and Mircotech might be the cheapest ones...
Whichever one you choose on standalone ECU's it comes down to the tuners, like which one they are more familiar with and know how to maximise the full benefit of tuning it...
I would pick HKS F-con V pro since I know my friend can tune them pretty well, but also know Autronic and Motec are used very commonly in motorsport races and know people who can tune them very well here too in NZ…
So it comes down to who can do it… no point in buying them if no one in your area can tune and know the experience of doing it properly…
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mike ae111
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new ae111 coming soon
has any one heard of dastek super chip piggy back? i can get one for handy money but dont know if my ecu will ignore it :idk:
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TheBlueBeast
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Amazing
I have an E-manage blue in my car all wired in and mapped, is this not doing anyting ? or does it start doing somthing then gets corrected by the ecu ??? should i sell it and go stand alone or ultimate ???
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The Parrot


if it has the full harness it will work. but if it does reset itself youll defo know.
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TheBlueBeast
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Amazing
it has a greddy harness, but soldered in(as pluged into the e-manage, soldered to the ecu)
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DreadAngel
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Han Lue
What Parrot means is that its got the harness + the optional harnesses for Ignition/Timing?
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TheBlueBeast
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Amazing
i get ye now, i dont no if it has that, but wen i drive the light is always green on the e-mange, but at say 2000-3000rpm if just cruiseing the light goes orangey red sumtimes, then wen i accelerate, even gentle tap the pedal it goes back to green. does this meen it is working or should i just get the ultimate ??? i want to run cams but not huge ones as it will be a day to day car, so dont want a mad high power range, i want good power and torque low down, but i would love a 9000rpm limit !!! would a e-mange blue be good enough to handel cams of say 272 dgree with 9mm lift ?? cant find any good info on them, or people that use them in ae111. thanks.
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chaosad
Stage 1
Auto-tune is a nice feature if you have a wideband oxy sensor but it wont tune ignition.
To tune ignition properly you really need to put the car on a steady state dyno to find MBT.

The microtech's seem to give great results on drag rotaries, but I probably wouldnt put one in a street car. I had one on my lancer and instead of a spark table it had an rpm column and a kpa column. Probably not the best for getting the most out of a street car, although im sure a competent tuner could still get reasonable results from it.

The blacktop ecu doesnt have an eprom chip like a lot of other ecu's so it cant be simply 'chipped'.
What a lot of firms such as toms, mines, trust, sard, technosquare etc do is replace the cpu with a socket and install a daughterboard with the cpu, an epom chip and some components to make it read from the eprom chip.
However, without the definition files etc this is useless to us.

Piggybacks such as the safc are ok for performing minor tweaks for intake, exhaust etc.
Once you get into more serious mods you would benefit more from an aftermarket ecu.
Edited by chaosad, Jun 17 2010, 12:17 PM.
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andy t
Stage 2
anyone ever here of an IMEC ecu ???
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Levin BZR
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andy t
Nov 20 2013, 10:36 AM
anyone ever here of an IMEC ecu ???
IMEC is a chipped ECU, based on some mods. I have two similar ECUs, a Mine's and a CERUMO.
What exactly are you asking for-worrying about?
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