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Tunable ECU?; Requirement for upgraded camshafts?
Topic Started: Sep 29 2008, 07:06 PM (512 Views)
evaril
Stage 4
Well, im looking at new cams and as far as i read no-one online says i need a new ecu or piggyback ecu in order to install 277 duration cams and tune them....

Does anyone have a definitive answer or have done this before that can help me out?

and IF i do need a new ecu, whats good, whats not etc.

Thanks


Mitch.
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TRUENOSAM
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Stage 6
I would have thought that a stock ecu wont be able to compensate the air/feul ratio that would be required to run the uprated cams correctly.
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
woohoo!
go mitch
so yeah u'll need an ecu
any cheap stanalone ecu will do the job, microtech, haltech

haltech will have a bit more functions like close loop control or idle control for economy n ease of tune, but u'd need to pay an extra 700 dollars or something for a lambda sensor, plus it'll need to be fine tuned anyway

microtech on the other hand, while being a bit cheaper, the tuner must know exactly what they're doing, everything needs to be programmed from square 1, but once tuned properly, it'll do the job nicely

for a microtech you'll be looking at about 2000 fitted and tuned depending on where you take it, haltech may cost more even without lambda sensor

e-manage ultimate will work too, but not many people in syd can tune e-manage ultimate..

have also heard adaptronic is good, but don't really have any experience or seen the specs to tell you how well it is

at the end of the day, it all depends on the tuner's preference
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TRUENOSAM
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Stage 6
devo
Sep 29 2008, 09:26 PM
if possible mate can u tel us how they,.are caz few days ago a car tuning company i go to and no very well, said neil the cams for the levins are a waste of money produce very lil power,was bit dissapointed tbh,but i do no tat vtec sirs wil produce more power gains than the ae111,s wit cams,so want to no wat u think of them mate.
The thing is with vtec units is that the cams arent really reccomended for street use. Have you ever heard of TODA killers in a vtec motor :ermm: .

You thinking of getting yours done devo?
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chiksluvit
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cams dont work well with ae111?
that's something new...

well if you compare it to the gain a turbo will give you, ya i guess the 20-30hp it's not that geat compared to what boost can give you

larger cams will work well with engine if the head of an engine is high flow enough to support it
without the vtec mechanism, the honda motors are just standard 16v 4 cyl single throttle, that basic configuration is not as superior as the 20v with quads, the standard vtec mechanism is all about playing around with different cam sizes switching to the larger lobe on high rpm, and it worked well even with 16v single throttle. i dont see how the 20v quads with a better basic configuration won't work well with cams

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DreadAngel
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Han Lue
Devo - Tell that workshop mate, anything short of turbos is a waste of time then. I'm surprised that the workshop said that given the nature of your engine. They should know that squeezing power out of a NA <2L motor is difficult at the very least, you don't get much in terms of power vs $$$ and its easy to get wrong to and go backwards.

NA small capacity rely on camshafts to gain lots more power. Depending how aggressive your camshafts are, you'll gain power (Its been proven in Sydney a Blacktop 20V with IN288/EX288deg 9mm limited to 9500RPM produced 140rwkw and the car was still producing more power, cut off at 9500rpm cause of the components involved, given a full rebuilt engine, you'll be looking at more) but the effects on drivability can be so deterimental that your car is restricted to track only.

Of course you can't compare to turbocharged or supercharged machines as they have a multipier effect due to the force induction nature.

Mitch, 272 both intake and exhaust or 272 Intake 288 Exhaust or 264 Intake and 272 Exhaust?

In any case as Thomas said, nice Standalone better since you're aiming so high with your camshaft selection. You could get away with Stock ECU or Piggyback ECU if it was something less aggressive (256/256 256/264) but after that need Standalone to get the most out of it...
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evaril
Stage 4
yea, the specs for cams ive been looking at are manufactured here, i dont see the point in importing for 2x the price, so im getting them made, so it can be whatever i want at the end of the day.

Fk, time for computer shopping then. i have no idea what im looking at when it comes to ecu's, but im looking at the right thing if its ~~1600-1700 or so?
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
i think chiksluvit is refering to autronic?? which is similar priced to haltech... which are not that cheap....

also Link are good cheap standalone ecu's...
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devo
Stage 6
guys i no tat camshafts wil obviously gain power,but nothin that would blow u away i mean,some irish people might no the place its called the tuning factory,there vtec specialists,sound lads,i didnt want to say this but they told me they tuned a levin exhaust systems,upgraded cams everything possible to a na car,they said got shit power,not great results,and i belive it caz,every levin i see standard are 150bhp,to 160bhp,were as when i went on dyno the sir civic standard were getting 173bhp,sure there known to hav more bhp,and the cams seem much more aggresive than ours,anyway before people say talkin shit,i jus wanted to no wat dis lad,makes of them and wat gains he going to get.
Edited by devo, Sep 30 2008, 04:06 AM.
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AceSniper
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when comparing dyno numbers its only useful if the samples have all been made on the same dyno... iv seen hub dynos read 40+hp what a roller reads on the same car
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devo
Stage 6
AceSniper
Sep 30 2008, 05:25 AM
To get the gains you must do the rest to support it... no half ass shit or you will just lose.

you guys talk about 150-160hp, civic 170hp.... how the hell can you say that did you pull the engine out of the chassis and bench dyno it? no.
Compare wheel hp numbers only... anything else is a guess.

On a dyno I use here a stock blacktop put out 82kw, with a stand alown it made 87kw, a B16a honda will make around the same numbers.
my engine makes 125kw (around "guess" 190-200bhp) on this dyno... is this no gain? a dc2 type r makes 120-128kw and a dc5-r makes 130-138kw....
Do you call this no gain? this is like comparing a b16a to a b18c-r.... huge gains!!

as for honda guys working on 20vs lol.... watched one honda based place try and make some 20v headers and lost power over the stock ones.... :@



Cams, springs, compression, 3 angle valve job, exhaust, conrods, ecu... it will gain power.
the above is the least id consider to keep the car street friendly, make power and last
,so if i have i standard levin and 1 standard sir civic,which wil have more bhp,i don no wat u mean have i taken the engine out on a bench,iv been to dyno days and seen the results for myself,straight out question if i have 1000 to spend on each car civic,levin which will produce more power.this is well known in the car industry that vtecs wil produce more power,my mates civic sir wit jus cams is hiting 182bhp,ud never see this on a levin.moral of the story is im tellin the lad not to expect huge gains,only if he is going the all the way wit it.
Edited by devo, Sep 30 2008, 02:58 PM.
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Ae111blast
Stage 5
Basically you can measure the power of a car with three different types of dyno

The first and quickest is the Rolling road, just drive you car on and away you go but is the least accurate

The second is a hub dyno, takes abit longer as you have to take the wheels off but is more accurate.

The third option is a bench dyno, the engine is not in the car so is very big job but you can get the true power of the engine straight from the crank!
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devo
Stage 6
ye agree,but nobody is going to take the engine out etc,maybe the wheels of ye,but the most common is the rolling road always wil be,guys im not sayin sir civics is better,quicker etc,im jus sayin ur more than likely going to get more power from one easier,doesn mean its any way better,personally i think the ae111 set up is head over heels better,jus taught id say tat before i become public enemy number 1 ha.anyway its got of wel of the thread the chap jus wants to no about the ecu which to use while running the new cams.
Edited by devo, Sep 30 2008, 03:30 PM.
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Ae111blast
Stage 5
I would like to see that, on his dyno chart he makes just abit more torque than normal, i reckon its more like 210 at the Fly if he is lucky.
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choco
Stage 2
Cams and an ecu transforms the BT. The vtec enignes have up to 11.5mm valve lift on the big cam lobe, compared to the BT's 7.5ish. Stock to stock the hondas produce more top end power but less torque and not all flat as the BT's.The BT's respond very well to cams etc.
Edited by choco, Sep 30 2008, 07:25 PM.
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devo
Stage 6
Levin BZR
Sep 30 2008, 03:45 PM
You can make your AE111 go crazy with TODA camshafts and an aftermarket ecu.Just look at CrowBZR trueno. 210 hp at the wheels!!!! :bow:
is it turboed ye has to be 210hp atws impressive

nickae111
Sep 30 2008, 05:16 PM
I have TODA 272 8mm cams, imec open tumpets and hks racing manifold + hks silent high-power cat-back running on a Tom's ecu and im making 189bhp at the flywheel and 156bhp at the wheels.

have dyno graph to prove it

:P
ye tats nice bit power lot work must have cost ya fair bit,but im talking about cams alone on a levin ud really have to get the ecu and other bits to make serious power.
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Levin BZR
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CrowBZR's dyno sheet!! And it's 209 whp not flywheel

His is a friend of mine,and his car is just amazing!! And it is NA!!!!

http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=type36dinamometrisigj9.jpg

My car, showed 142.7 wheel hp with a fujitsubo 4-2-1 header,a fuel pressure regulator,a CAI filter and TRD plug wires.Now I have a TRD clutch set(disc+cover+flywheel),new denso iridium sparks,imec trumpets and a Mine's ECU.The car is a LOT faster than before..I haven't dynoed though. But I believe with out camshaft,I reached 150-155 whp
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Ae111blast
Stage 5
Yeh but no where on there does it say its at the wheels
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DreadAngel
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Han Lue
Devo, your getting too hung up about power mate. You sound like one of those Turbo Only people lol. The B16A/B16B will always show up more than the 4A-GE because Honda's claims of 170PS/185PS is very damn close while the claim of 165PS from Toyota is so far removed from the true (around 15PS - 40PS off depending on which dyno you use and where you're located in the world) its not funny. The fact that the Silvertop makes about the same amount as the Blacktop (160PS claimed, but in reality loses about 15PS-30PS) is enough to make you scratch your head lol.

In any case mate, take it from a Civic owner that has done a load of crap to his car, the gains you're seeing with the AE111 vs my EG (part for part) is similar in gains. And the biggest gone was with camshafts + tuning :)
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
ummmm... okay.... back to the main topic about tunable ECU's.....

not only aftermarket ecu's are important factor to maximise camshaft's potential... but also the tuner too....

yes standalone or piggy back ecu's are great stuff but it comes down to who and how the tuner tunes the ecu's since that will make a huge difference and outcome too...

so i would suggest you to find a good tuner first and then ask him what kind of ecu's that he's an expert at tuning.... no point in buying a e manage for example, if he doesn't know how to tune it...
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AceSniper
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quick add in...
Roller dyno will always give the least hp number (more loss) but do you drive with out a gearbox or wheels :D
Hub dyno is very good for tunning but final numbers can be somewhat miss leading VS a rollerdyno

Stock for stock blacktop and b16a2 is close.. very driver dependent.....
I know I could go bolt onto a hub dyno and get 140-145kw.
At the end of the day its down to how it drives and how you drive it not the numbers.

anyway move passed that...


Id say get a ecu but if your budget doesn't allow go for a greedy ultimate, if you lift the 8k rev limiter do the rods. other than that valve spring and lift the compression a bit pending on your fuel
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Levin BZR
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A tuner from Motec,came this summer to Cyprus to do some work on cars with aftermarket ecus.(not only motec). He told me NOT to use any of the emanage (blue or ultimate) for my car.It might be cheap,but it will not work on our cars.After a period of time,the car have to be re-tuned.. This is because of the standard Toyota ECU..So,if you want to buy an ecu,go for a stand alone,or a Tom's,Mine's,C-one,Cerumo ecus(pre-programmed ecus).
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devo
Stage 6
guys as bzg said back to the ecu matter,iv never said the honda are better in any way,in my opinion and stats tat iv seen,i hang around wit guys wit all sorts of cars and these,the honda always produces more power,and in the long run if u go all the way wit the car the vtec be better in my opinion,every one else entitled to theres, cheers ;)
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chiksluvit
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AceSniper
Oct 4 2008, 11:38 AM
okie had a play on the dyno today with a ae111 with toda pistons 272in 264ex toda cams and a greedy emanage he gets a flat spot around 3k? seams to be cause of the ecu, a/f is fine
Made 112kw on two runs, pulled the fuse and reset the std ecu and did two runs making 114kw atw
what rpm was the max power made at though?
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AceSniper
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around 75-7700rpm (std kinda area)
std rev limit
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chiksluvit
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thats some good results..
i thought it'd make the power a bit more high up.. like 8200 kinda area
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AceSniper
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http://s15.zetaboards.com/AE111_Forum/topic/6541151/1
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