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Short shifter
Topic Started: Jan 18 2009, 01:16 AM (656 Views)
Ae111blast
Stage 5
Im looking at getting a c one short shifter, was wondering anyone has one or another make fitted and if they make a difference?

Cheers guys, Scott
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frax
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Stage 6
iv got a trd one. i still try and push the stick further then it goes cos im not used to it yet.
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jetshin
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Stage 5
i got a trd. Probably not worth what they sell for in my opinion.
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n2o
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mechanical n00b
why not ?

my 5 speed requires a huge throw for every gear, i too am looking to get c's short shifter
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DreadAngel
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Han Lue
5 Speed longer throws than 6 Speed from what I've felt so far...
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bob
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Stage 4
ye one of my mates tat drives a civic though i had
a short shifter in my bzr
but it was just standard the 6 speed throws seem
to short anyway

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Ae111blast
Stage 5
Soo it would be worth getting a short shifter for a 5 speed then?
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pergie
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Stage 5
i think they r worth getting anyway i found it much better wit the short shifter id go for the trd one if u r gettin one
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jetshin
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Stage 5
yea i'd prefer the short shift over stock, but for how much they cost I'd rather spend money elsewhere. Has anyone got a C-west one? how do they feel? TRD no longer make the 5speed kits aswell.
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AceSniper
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you can make your std one shorter by extending the arm under the ball/joint just need to cut and weld, and space the shifter unit up so the arm wont contact the floor
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Ae111blast
Stage 5
Mmm might think about doing that lol!

Is there any reason i cant use a six speed short shifter or can you only use five, if so why?

Cheers Scott
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Levin BZR
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I bought one c's short shift for my car, but it is for a 5 speed gearbox.. If anyone want to buy it, just pm me guys.
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Ae111blast
Stage 5
Pm'd
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
AceSniper
Jan 19 2009, 11:33 PM
you can make your std one shorter by extending the arm under the ball/joint just need to cut and weld, and space the shifter unit up so the arm wont contact the floor
you could also cut the top bit above the ball joint too yeah?
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jetshin
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Stage 5
^^ would make it shorter but would require more force to shift?
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pergie
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chiksluvit
Jan 30 2009, 08:01 AM
AceSniper
Jan 19 2009, 11:33 PM
you can make your std one shorter by extending the arm under the ball/joint just need to cut and weld, and space the shifter unit up so the arm wont contact the floor
you could also cut the top bit above the ball joint too yeah?
if u cut down the std one it will make no diff the throw will still b the same it will only make the gear stick smaller
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chiksluvit
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hrm..
well i dont think so
cutting the part above the ball joint should make the throw shorter, same affect as extending the part under the ball joint
i reckon shin's right, it'll require more force to shift gear... but so will extending the part below the ball joint..

this is how i see it:
so lets assume just for argument's sake that the shifter is 10cm above the ball joint, and 15cm below the ball joint
the force required to shift is say 0.5kg
so 0.5kg of force = 0.5kgx 10cm= 5kg
5/15cm=0.3kg of force to move between gears

so if the top is cut by 5cm, which leave the part above ball joint to be 5cm
it'll be 0.3kgx 15cm / 5cm= 1kg* --- half the length, double the force required, half the throw

if you extend the bottom of the ball joint by 5cm to say 20cm but leave the part above the balljoint
0.3kg x 20cm /10cm= 0.66kg* --- 1/3 more the length, 1/3 more force required, throw will be 1/3 less

i dont know the exact measurements of AE111 shifter... so above calculation is just an example
at the end of the day, it depends on whether you'd like to have the shifter closer to you or further from you to shorten the throw..
Edited by chiksluvit, Jan 30 2009, 03:49 PM.
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JohnnyBZG
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Needs to Try Harder
Shortening the top of the lever will not make the shift shorter....Just the movement (arc) of the top of the lever will be less. (and more force required to move it)
The correct way to make the shift shorter is by the placement of the pivot in relation to the 'object' being moved, since the lever is moving a cable that is attached at a fixed point in relation to the lever movement. Either lengthening the point below the pivot or shortening the anchor point from the bottom of the lever to the cable is the only correct method of shortening the shift. (probably why the shifter is 's' shaped or angled instead of straight...it's called a 'short shift' not a 'less/more force per unit movement' shift
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chiksluvit
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hrm ok so how about the short shifters from say TRD for example..
they're heavier than standard shifters no? the only car I've only driven with short shifter was a honda prelude which was a long time ago so no i dont really have much experience with these..

say if you have a standard shifter, and instead of shifting from the gearknob, you shift from grabbing on a lower point, such as the bottom of the gear knob, doesnt the throw shorten too? like yes it may require more force, but to my understanding, if you're reducing the movement at one end of the lever but expecting the other end to move the same amount you'll have to apply more force, so adding length at the bottom of the pivot should have the same affect? like require more force to be applied to shift?
also shortening the arc movement on the top- isn't this what short shifters are ultimately trying to achieve?

in the simplified picture below, comparing shifting from a vs shifting from b, wouldnt the throw of A be shorter than B?

Posted Image

also here's a standard shifter next to a TRD short shifter.. TRD shifter is shorter above the pivot... maybe longer also below the pivot but i can't tell from this picture

Posted Image

or is there a way to reduce the throw without the need to apply more force, while keeping the height of the shifter the same as the factory one?
i might be missing something... i really need to have a good look at a standard shifter assy to visualise this... just can't since the car's not with me at the moment..
Edited by chiksluvit, Jun 10 2009, 03:14 AM.
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JohnnyBZG
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The TRD shifter doesn't have the double bend on the shaft, so the gearknob sits further back- closer to the driver if you want - therefore movement of your arm is decreased, but now think of the length of the shaft on the other side of the pivot, if it hasn't changed will still result in the same distance traveled to actuate the cable attached to the gearbox, so you haven't shortened the shift ratio, just the movement of your arm.
So having just shortened the top of the lever above the pivot will only give you a faster shift (speed wise)- which then is just really a placebo and gives the impression of faster shifting as it's the driver's reactionary time that is being measured here.
To alter the pivot position further up along the shaft, therefore giving a longer bottom stroke (I would say shaft here, but then it'd be double entendre central) you are decreasing the distance required to move the cable to change gears- a real 'short shift'.
If you are familiar with , say, a full suspension bike- most rear suspensions that give 4- 5" of travel only have a rear shoke that has a stroke of around 2", it's all due to cantilever size and pivot positioning.

I had a short shifter on my Cynos. The lever was overall similar shape to the TRD shifter in the pics. Shorter length, but the pivot was around 10mm higher up on the shaft compared to stock, and it only had one bend, not two as the original did. It's how fast you change the gears, not how fast you move your arm that counts... although in a roundabout way that statement sounds stupid...if you understand the overall context..

The TRD plastic frame has some differences from the original in it's overall shape/size, the pivot is different, remember only a few MMs can equate to a fairly substantial difference
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chiksluvit
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thanks for the explaination Johnny..
It'll take me some time to fully digest this, and perhaps best for me to try it out myself maybe by getting a short shifter, but from what i gathering is:
1. shift knob is re-positioned so it's quicker for driver to grab and
2. pivot pt is raised slightly (longer shaft length below pivot) to create the short-shift affect

but what sounds confusing is that wouldn't point 2. also cause more force to be needed for shifting? which is the same affect as only decreasing the length above the pivot?

Posted Image

from my understanding, stock shifter is A, what i suggested (cutting the top) is B, and what you've been saying is C right?
Edited by chiksluvit, Jun 10 2009, 03:14 AM.
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JohnnyBZG
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overall yes, more force would be required to 'move the object' in this case the gear linkage/cable, but when you're talking grams/mm of a difference it's negligible...just as milliseconds of a difference in the overall time taken to change for a road car is negligible...if you're after zero effort/short shift time, say for drag racing, then sequential air shifters are the big daddy. If you ever look at any 'works' rally cars they all have massive gear levers and they are positioned for ease of reach rather than anything else (and usually sequential too)...so you could say a 'short shifter' is as much a fashion accessory as anything in a road car :idk: :whistle:
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
lol... it'd be interesting to know how much shorter is the throw on those short shifters anyway?
because i was under the impression that say if you double the length below the shifter, you'll need to exert double the force so you could half the throw?

so if it's only a few mm longer, so you won't have to put in that much more force, the throw distance wouldn't have been shortened by that much?
Edited by chiksluvit, Jan 30 2009, 07:00 PM.
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JohnnyBZG
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Remember it's an ARC the travel is moving in. So if its , say 5mm longer then the travel increases as a proportion of 2 x pi x R not just 5 mm.

So in other words,
...if the throw distance is shortened by 20% then the shifting effort will be increased by 20%.
Another way is not to increase/decrease any sizes on the shaft, but to change the distance the coupler/linkage moves, so a longer linkage would exert more force for less effort, unfortunately if you increase the length, without increasing the rigidity-which also increase the weight (vicious circle), you tend to have more minus attributes than plusses... so short shifters are a compromise...and at it's very basic form, usually ends up as a shortened shaft (B in your diagram)
Edited by JohnnyBZG, Jan 30 2009, 09:58 PM.
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chiksluvit
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[OO\_____/OO]
Great explaination there Johnny...

took a few posts but we've got there! anyone agree to pin this thread?
Edited by chiksluvit, Jan 31 2009, 07:03 AM.
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AceSniper
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way to much been typed here for me to read it all lol

but in short a shifter kit just extends the load arm below the ball... shortening above the ball will make it harder to change gear and also move your hand further away from the steering wheel... hence rally cars move them closer to the wheel
Edited by AceSniper, Jan 31 2009, 10:35 AM.
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Levin BZR
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Guys,look what I find! B)
Posted Image
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n2o
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mechanical n00b
is that the c's short shifter you said you had ?

Is it still for sale ?
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Levin BZR
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n2o
Feb 5 2009, 09:38 PM
is that the c's short shifter you said you had ?

Is it still for sale ?
No buddy. This photos are in the net.. My c's photos are these:
Posted Image

Posted Image

And yes is still for sale. I want 100 euro+shipping buddy..
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dog-tag
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Stage 5
Jaysus lads wudnt bother me arse with a short shifter, iv a short shifter
and a long gear knob...bangs em into gear a bit quicker but i wudnt
even tink about unless i was offered one cheap from a scrapped yolk, running
it on the track or it was heavily tuned! sure why wud u bother :idk:

If anything it annoys me cos i do wonder if im in gear or not!!!
Its not going to be faster or look better...buy a headunit instead lads!
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martyboy48
Stage 5
^^^
Ha Ha.. Or buy some furry dice!!!!!
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n2o
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mechanical n00b
what sort of grease should i use on the oem shifter ?
took the shift boot off today and it was pretty dry around the ball joint
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JohnnyBZG
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n2o
Feb 16 2009, 10:55 AM
what sort of grease should i use on the oem shifter ?
took the shift boot off today and it was pretty dry around the ball joint
I use(d) Pace RC7 bicycle suspension fork grease on mine.....nice and light and has a high temp co efficient- doesn't break down too much, but doesn't pack up with grit/fluffbunnies in the gaiter...
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augur
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Stage 1
Forgive the condition of my interior.....I do this to all of my cars that i have acquired over the years. If they are over ten years, It is prudent that you do so....Jamaican roads and drivers....!
Installed is a Modified stock 6-Speed shifter Assembly...and beside it, the original 5-Speed shifter Assembly that i got in the car....

Posted Image

Below:- TOP = Original 6-Speed shifter, MIDDLE = Modified stock 6-Speed shifter & BELOW = Modified stock 5-Speed shifter

Posted Image

N.B:- Modification done by cutting 1" or 1.5 sections from the top of the shaft and cutting and welding to the bottom. Specific results can be achieved by varying the dimensions of the sections/Bits added below the pivot ball.
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JohnnyBZG
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Needs to Try Harder
Is that a Recaro?

lol

Posted Image
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n2o
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mechanical n00b
lol, good spotting

looks like they're recaros with arm rests as feet..
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