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Modifying/removing the stock trumpets
Topic Started: Feb 12 2008, 05:40 AM (1,981 Views)
one11
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Stage 4
I came across this today while at work. seems interesting - if i can find another set of stock horns from the wreckers i might give it a go :)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/t...%2fzou-wari.htm
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Wolftown
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AceSniper
Feb 12 2008, 06:15 AM
not sure about ae111 as there rubber and will make them very bendy... and may end up blocking the intake? it works on silvertops. you could always just open the airbox remove the trumpets remove the bolts from them and bolt the box back up with nothing.

Would that free up any power?
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20sideways
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20sideways
AceSniper
Feb 12 2008, 06:15 AM
not sure about ae111 as there rubber and will make them very bendy... and may end up blocking the intake? it works on silvertops. you could always just open the airbox remove the trumpets remove the bolts from them and bolt the box back up with nothing.

surely that wudnt work??? otherwise theyd never have fitted the horns in the 1st place ace????
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AceSniper
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depends were you want the power, helps a little top end if your not worryed about low end power, they are there to help with the lower rpm torque
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dub-levin
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whats the point in cutting them??

you should take them off, and take off the air chamber and replace it with a custom smaller chamber.
dont see the point in cutting them. i wont cut anything on my car.
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kyleseo
Stage 5

believe removing the horns completely has detrimental effects to performance.
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20sideways
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20sideways
dub-levin
Feb 12 2008, 08:13 PM
i cant see the difference between removing them and cutting them like that.

profen that different length horns move the torque band along the rev range, jus depends wher u want the torque, personal preference really
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JohnnyBZG
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Needs to Try Harder
Just...buy...some ...shiny...new...stacks........ :lol:
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AceSniper
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no point in using that unless ur turbo, the smaller size will remove torque.
all you want is nice trumpits WITH the plenum chamber, that gets feed with cold air, you can play as much as you wish but anything other than that will loose power when your engine gets warm.
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Peter
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dub-levin
Feb 13 2008, 08:43 AM
personaly when i get the cash. im getting rid of that intake chamber and replacing it with
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/20-Valve-tu...sspagenameZWDVW
with no stacks or horns . just that and a direct filter

As Acesniper said this is pointless unless your engine is charged, you'd be better off just removing the standard trumpets and keeping the stock box if thats the sort of set up you're after, alot cheaper that way too ;)
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JP89
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Wats da crack lads
I was tinking of taking off my airbox and removing the 4 pipes inside it
wat will this do for me
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Billy
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Well if you put on velocity stacks it will sound mint, look savage and a good mod also. Dnt just leave da box off and put nothing on the itb's, it cud mess up da engine by sucking all kinds of stuff in!
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devo
Stage 6
em sounds like a good mod wat box lads the main air flow one is it wat are these velocity stacks keep hearin about them wat they do
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JP89
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no i was just tinking of removing the 4 small pipe tingeys nside da box and then put the main box back on like :wacko:
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devo
Stage 6
didnt relise there was anything in the air box tats not a bad idea sure how could ur car suck up crap ur air filter wil stop it .all tat can do is give the engine more air wel tats wat i taught
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JohnnyBZG
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JP89
May 10 2008, 09:27 AM
Ya exactly my tinking just threw it up to see wud i b doin any harm by doin it like :wacko:

You'll probably lose performance...
The stock 'funnel's' are there to direct air in to the ITBs and cut down on turbulence.
If you just have a big box full of dead air with no velocity-to push into the TBs then when the throttle opens, they will all 'fight' for air and not receive equal amounts. The air will rush past the TB on the far right and get pushed on til it reaches the end of the main air chamber swamping the most left TB.....and rebounding all around the inside of the air chamber. If you have velocity stacks the air moves in thru the bell mouth at speed but smooth (no turbulence) and then when throttle's opened the air gets sucked in... at speed and with a constant 'flow' of air at speed will supply the best/correct fuel/air to the combustion chambers... being more efficient at burning the mixture.... and obviously the faster you can supply this- the better the engine can make power...

air at speed doesn't like straight edges...
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
as johnnybzg said....

but on top of that... i have done a dyno on this with and without the factory funnel inside and it does lose a lot of power without it... don't have the dyno chat on me now... but you do need velocity stacks to help the air flow into the trottle bodies...

good idea to keep the air box to keep crap out of the intake but do need something to help the air flow than nothing on....
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devo
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i get yaz lads dont think i be attemptn tat so ha
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
IISTROKE
May 11 2008, 06:31 AM
how about if i just cut the factory trumpets and shorten it you guys think this is a bad idea?

well it's still better than having nothing on the trottle bodies...but the tip/end of the cut trumpet is still straight, so the air won't flow in easily... unless you can curve the tip some how a bit outwards so it looks bit like a trumpet...
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toebar
Stage 3
cant get my hand's on itb.s any were so just wondering for the time been if i cut the standard trumphet's down a bit would tat make any difference in the sound of the car :idk:
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TRUENOSAM
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I wouldnt cut any thing down. Just get some velocity stacks or make yourself a custom foam filter for them. Dont ruin your car just to make a noise.
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kyleseo
Stage 5

Cutting the factory stacks has shown power losses.

try technotoytuning
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BZ-G
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aka Hyper Rev 4...
i've tried a dyno with and without standard trumpets on and it does show power loss if you remove it... but then again it also would create bit of power loss even if you cut it too since the box is designed for that kind of size/shape trumpet....
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toebar
Stage 3
im kind of in the dark about trumphet's i want to get a good induction noise from my car but dont want to loose power or damage my engine doh iv looked in the topic's and cant find an answer please help
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kyleseo
Stage 5

You want damage the engine if you have any common sense and don't bounce it off the limiter just to hear the noise.

Like i said, get hold of T3. They do 75mm stacks for a decent price. There are various dyno graphs around the net from people proving power gains with them.
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toebar
Stage 3
tanx man iv just ordered them stack's there


wen i put them on do i put the black box back on tat cover's them or do i leave it of
Edited by toebar, Oct 3 2008, 02:04 PM.
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devo
Stage 6
kyleseo
Oct 3 2008, 06:51 PM
Very much doubt the plenum will fit over 75mm stacks.

I was using a an ITG Carb filter which CrowBZR now has.

Posted Image

Posted Image

You could do something along the same line, pipercross also do similar filters. Alternatively you could use individual socks filters on the stacks, again ITG and Pipercross both do them.

There are plenty of people that run them open in quite harsh climates but it is some what of a risk.
im a bit in the air wit the right itbs etc to use,i like wat u have there but would u not be better with the stock air box on,so u wont be sucking in hot air,wat sort of cold feed they getting,bar the stock air box pointing towards it,have u had gains wit this method mate,please really would like to no,im a big fan of the stock air box,so id like to leave tat as it is bit wat type trumpets i dont know which is best.
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kyleseo
Stage 5

The stock air box can only hold a certain amount of air so it is restrictive one way or the other. Atmospheric ITBs do exactly that, they use the atmosphere as the plenum so there is an unrestricted supply of air. The only stacks you will get to fit in the standard air box are 50mm, which even those require some cutting.

I only left the factory ducting on for asthetic reason, it looked gash with a big space. It serves no purpose what so ever, there will be no sort of ram cold air effect created from it. I never got around to sorting any sort of air feed and wasn't really that bothered. From dynos i have seen the potentially hotter air isn't noticable because the increase in air flow makes up for it and more. You could always experiment with raising the bonnet, vents etc. Its not as if hot air just sits in the engine bay constantly, the Bernoulli Effect causes air to be drawn out of the bay by air passing under it.

The car was due to be dyno a few weeks after it was written off so as for figures i have no idea. Throttle responce was definatly quicker but my arse dyno is in no position to start guessing power figures.
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toebar
Stage 3
would these be any good


http://www.thepipercrossshop.co.uk/competition_rampipes.asp
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kyleseo
Stage 5

There are no size specs. You need a 50mm internal diameter. I very much doubt the bolt holes on those will line up to the 4age throttles though.
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devo
Stage 6
thanks kyleseo,so difficult to detect which would be the best set up,id prob keep the stock air box bit like urs and have it directly at the itbs,can u tel me do u stil have ur panel filter in or did u remove it.removed it i say ye.
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kyleseo
Stage 5

Its all about experimenting mate, see what suits you best.

Yeh i took the panel filter out. I suppose you could route a pipe down to the bumper and into the air box. May get some sort of ram air effect though it, although probably not until decent speeds.
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Bryan BZ-R
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wel ive cut my stock trumpets in half an i havint seen any loss seens quicker tbh i left 50mm on it
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devo
Stage 6
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM
wel ive cut my stock trumpets in half an i havint seen any loss seens quicker tbh i left 50mm on it
i think longer trumpets will give you more torque mate and shorter trumpets will give you more bhp,im looking for 33mm trumpets at the moment, have you got the stock airbox still,or are you running them open
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Bryan BZ-R
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devo
Jun 2 2010, 02:48 AM
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM
wel ive cut my stock trumpets in half an i havint seen any loss seens quicker tbh i left 50mm on it
i think longer trumpets will give you more torque mate and shorter trumpets will give you more bhp,im looking for 33mm trumpets at the moment, have you got the stock airbox still,or are you running them open
Runing them with standard airbox an in the middle if doing cold air feed...
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devo
Stage 6
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 2 2010, 04:36 PM
devo
Jun 2 2010, 02:48 AM
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM
wel ive cut my stock trumpets in half an i havint seen any loss seens quicker tbh i left 50mm on it
i think longer trumpets will give you more torque mate and shorter trumpets will give you more bhp,im looking for 33mm trumpets at the moment, have you got the stock airbox still,or are you running them open
Runing them with standard airbox an in the middle if doing cold air feed...
notice any differenc at all?
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Bryan BZ-R
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devo
Jun 3 2010, 02:20 PM
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 2 2010, 04:36 PM
devo
Jun 2 2010, 02:48 AM
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM
wel ive cut my stock trumpets in half an i havint seen any loss seens quicker tbh i left 50mm on it
i think longer trumpets will give you more torque mate and shorter trumpets will give you more bhp,im looking for 33mm trumpets at the moment, have you got the stock airbox still,or are you running them open
Runing them with standard airbox an in the middle if doing cold air feed...
notice any differenc at all?
Yea more throttle responce
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Jungian
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devo
Jun 2 2010, 02:48 AM
Bryan BZ-R
Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM
wel ive cut my stock trumpets in half an i havint seen any loss seens quicker tbh i left 50mm on it
i think longer trumpets will give you more torque mate and shorter trumpets will give you more bhp,im looking for 33mm trumpets at the moment, have you got the stock airbox still,or are you running them open
Information fail lads.

Torque and Bhp are related. You can't have more of one and less of the other at a given rpm.

Torque is the measured turning force. BHP is calculated using torque, rpm and another mathematical constant.

The bell mouth on the end of the trumpet is as important as the length of it. Just hacking the standard intake runners in half without a bellmouth on the end will give a guaranteed loss of torque if measured on a dyno. The different length trumpets just move the torque curve up and down the rev range.

Read this book:
Four Stroke Performance Tuning

Edited by Jungian, Jun 8 2010, 04:45 PM.
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Bryan BZ-R
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So if i curved the ends would it be the same?
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JDM
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AE111
Got bored reading this thread so i jumped right to the bottom to reply so sorry if this has alreaddy been said.....

..... Toyota didnt spend tens of thousands designing the stock trumpets for them to just be cut in half, completely removed, or turned upside down is the stupidest one i've heard yet.



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Bryan BZ-R
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Sur whats the difference with the imec ones it jus the same but there like 180e
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touge_trueno
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take a look at the difference between stock trumpets and imec trumpets. the difference is the imec ones have been formed in a bellmouth shape while remaining straight. at a guess i would say the stock ones are bend to reduce engine noise but still aren't half bad.

cutting them up will only produce loss in torque and have a MUCH peakier power delivery - something the BT doesn't need more of IMO.
when you cut them you aren't going to be able to form a nice bellmouth shape with a stanley knife.
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Levin BZR
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Bryan BZ-R
Jun 8 2010, 08:18 PM
Sur whats the difference with the imec ones it jus the same but there like 180e
The shape of these trumpets and the "technology" behind them
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Bryan BZ-R
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Sur whats the difference with the imec ones it jus the same but there like 180e
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Levin BZR
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touge_trueno
Jun 8 2010, 08:39 PM
take a look at the difference between stock trumpets and imec trumpets. the difference is the imec ones have been formed in a bellmouth shape while remaining straight. at a guess i would say the stock ones are bend to reduce engine noise but still aren't half bad.

cutting them up will only produce loss in torque and have a MUCH peakier power delivery - something the BT doesn't need more of IMO.
when you cut them you aren't going to be able to form a nice bellmouth shape with a stanley knife.
That's your answer Bryan BZR. The shape "plays its role" buddy.
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Jungian
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Stage 4
The standard intake trumpets are long, at least 100mm iirc. They are bent to fit inside the plenum which is very important if you want decent torque. The effect this has is to give the engine enough torque low down in the revs to make the car drivable on the road. It is a compromise to keep the engine drivable for daily driving and still having good top end power.

Personally I wouldn't dream of making mods to the intake system of any modern road car without a re-programmable ecu and plenty of dyno time. Otherwise i'm just wasting fuel and making my car less powerful.

Before I bought my Levin, I went for a drive in a black BZ-R that had no plenum and open trumpets that were 50-65mm long. It was all noise and no go. That car felt gutless and slower than a Saxo VTR (118 wbhp).
Edited by Jungian, Jun 9 2010, 12:06 PM.
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Bryan BZ-R
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So i rounded the ends an toke off the sharp edge it would be better?
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Deleted User
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I would just by some proper trumpets. Think the best way to bodge your standard ones would be to cut the bell-mouth off them and glue/plastic weld it onto the shortened bit. You'd need it perfectly smooth inside.

Jungian, mines got no inlet plenum, we should meet up at some point and compare. I think it's actually improved my top end performance, maybe the noise is tricking me.
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Jungian
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Bryan BZ-R
Jun 9 2010, 05:07 PM
So i rounded the ends an toke off the sharp edge it would be better?
The short answer is no. Wouldn't achieve anything.

If you have the tops then do what Ecsy said ie: cut and glue. Rough though.

Ecsy, yeah would be nice to get the cars together and compare.

Edited by Jungian, Jun 10 2010, 12:26 AM.
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The Parrot


well im running imecs and after a few days the car feels much stronger everyway.
recommended.
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Bryan BZ-R
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Wel im gona take a pic an post it up to see wat yous tink
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touge_trueno
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trumpets are a very delicate area to be modifying. one which only a race team with lots of R&D budget would fully understand. best we can do is buy from reputable brands like imec.

there are so many different factors you need to take into account like the length, pitch of the bellmouth and either fully rolled or partial roll.

hopefully someone here has a pic of the differences between the std 'trumpets' (more like tuba's!) and ones like imec. then it will be obvious its not as simple as cutting it off and hoping for a nice shape.

intake mods are fine they help the engine breath better just like an exhaust and the characterstics of the engine will be closer to the actual design of the engine, not restricted by noise/emissions bullshit which is the case on almost every modern car. IMO you only need to alter computer once you get to the cam stage.
Although i know of a car that had been set up with a SAFC on the dyno by pulling 10% fuel out across most of the rev range to achieve 101kw on std everything. these engines are massively overfuelled.
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JDM
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touge_trueno
Jun 12 2010, 01:05 AM

hopefully someone here has a pic of the differences between the std 'trumpets' (more like tuba's!) and ones like imec. then it will be obvious its not as simple as cutting it off and hoping for a nice shape.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
Edited by JDM, Jun 12 2010, 10:51 AM.
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touge_trueno
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excellent! big thanks JDM.

hope now everyone can see what i was harping on about... :$
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Bryan BZ-R
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Posted Image
Posted Image
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Pretty sure that lot will be loosing you power. You want to get some of these bad boys...

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touge_trueno
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Escy
Jun 14 2010, 10:27 PM
Pretty sure that lot will be loosing you power. You want to get some of these bad boys...

Posted Image
would like to see it proven on a dyno but my guesstimation is that you will lose power.
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Jungian
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I've proved it on a flow bench with a set of throttle bodies from a Honda CBR600. Higher flow rate equals more air in to the engine which should equal more torque as long as the carbs/fuel injection system is set up to match the increase in air. I don't remember the exact figures but I tried it without any intake runners, with straight pipes and with runners with a flared end. Higher CFM (cubic feet per minute) flow rates were obvious with the bell mouth runners.

Its all about trying to smooth the flow of air into the engine and trying to pack as much air through the intake as possible. A smooth bell mouth is the best way to do it.

Bryan, good effort on smoothing the edges but at best you have knocked a bunch of torque off your low rpm.
Edited by Jungian, Jun 15 2010, 10:32 AM.
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touge_trueno
Jun 15 2010, 06:37 AM
would like to see it proven on a dyno but my guesstimation is that you will lose power.
On wheels Jamacia forums, it's been proven to gain power. I think it has but can't be sure. I love the sound, worth it for the noise alone.
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Bryan BZ-R
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Cheers but i taut i replaced low torque with more high torque? :/
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touge_trueno
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Escy
Jun 15 2010, 04:45 PM
touge_trueno
Jun 15 2010, 06:37 AM
would like to see it proven on a dyno but my guesstimation is that you will lose power.
On wheels Jamacia forums, it's been proven to gain power. I think it has but can't be sure. I love the sound, worth it for the noise alone.

oh sorry i was referring to Bryan BZ-R. got lazy with my reply and reposted your pic too.

Bryan BZ-R
 
Cheers but i taut i replaced low torque with more high torque? :/


not likely. depends on the flow characteristics of the shape you have formed. it could well be that the optimal flow rate (where torque is produced) is either out of your rev range or very very peaky so the engine cannot make use of this over the time frame it is flowing air at that rate, thus not neccessarily adding on top what you have taken out of the bottom of the torque curve.

as i said, it would be interesting to see them tested on a dyno or ideally on a flow bench as that is the only true way of knowing what it will help/hinder.
Edited by touge_trueno, Jun 15 2010, 11:28 PM.
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PeterAE111
Stage 4
Would love to see some info to compare the difference of the Imec short trumpets vrs a setup like escy's. Id imagine as the trumpets are longer it would be geared towards more torque and the shorter ones for more peaky power gains?
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Deleted User
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Interesting article here about the length, going by what they are saying, sounds like the small IMEC ones aren't really that suitable. Wouldn't be surprised if they loose you power, lets face it, if that was the best option to go in the standard plenum, why didn't Toyota do it?
http://www.fastfordmag.co.uk/resources/fastford/FAF282.lowdown.pdf
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1i1
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NZ Toyota Parts Guy

Trumpet length needs to be based on cams, headers and even flow of the head. Not just a matter of putting a certain one on coz that's what you see on Japanese demo cars etc.

Pretty sure NILPSI years ago did runs on a dyno with stock vs aftermarket trumpets and lost power. No point in trying to gain a few hp at the top of the rev range only to loose say 10hp 2,000rpm - 5,000rpm.

Some one with an engine build like ace or bzr4age would responed well to trumpets as the cams they run are designed for high rpm use any way.


Would love to try a set for myself though
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DreadAngel
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Han Lue
^^^

Mark is correct =P

May sound awesome and psychologically faster but fact is unless you've got a built up engine, don't expect anything too drastic more than likely look at your power/torque and response shift just like changing from factory intake to SRI or CAI, same type of concept ;)
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JDM
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AE111
stacks inside the plenum FTW.

This ae111 has been tuned to 188.38711385 bhp (lol) and look at the engine bay :whistle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6OgRynxwFI
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Deleted User
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How do you know they have stacks inside the plenum?
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Bryan BZ-R
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I would make a differerence it has to sur?
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sprintR
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Im gonna butt in here, nearly everyone hungers for a bit of induction noise/response but theres a big line between doing it properly or cheaply. Try avoiding chopping up bits of your car, please. Save up a bit and source out proper stacks then run them inside the plenum. I was in same situation once but thought rather not rush things and have gunk going into the engine.

On another note has anyone tried running imec/pass stacks with standard airbox and aftermarket flatbed filter? kinda liking this idea just want to know your opinions thanks!

-dave
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Bryan BZ-R
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Right so my cars off the road for a while so ive abit of time to work with so my plan is to cut my tumpets leaving about 10mm on the part that bolts on the im goin to cut the bellend part leaving about 20mm and bond the two together in theory this would be the same a the imec ones whats peoples opinions if there negative its ok i wont do it so
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Deleted User
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I would make them longer if you can, I seriously don't rate the IMEC ones, thing they are too short to be suitable with standard cams.
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Jungian
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Just because IMEC makes short trumpets doesn't mean they are better for the car. IMO there is no point in having all the torque focused high up in the revs where you can't use it. Track cars can get away with it because they spend most of their time at high rpm and the trumpets are part of a package of cams, valve springs, con rods and an ecu that are tuned for that purpose. They rebuild those engines every few thousand kms.

If you are going to make some trumpets up, then it would be very interesting to see you use the bell mouths and the ends of the ones you cut and make them into longer straight ones that are custom made to fit into the plenum. Make a tidy job of it and you would probably see some torque gains in your mid range :)



Edited by Jungian, Jun 24 2010, 01:55 PM.
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Bryan BZ-R
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Ok im gona try it so im gona cut angle off so der straight wats the best lenght to have them?
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Deleted User
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Are you running them open or in the plenum?
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Bryan BZ-R
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plenum with a panal filter an cold air feed
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