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Dead the Fire
Topic Started: Mar 4 2008, 07:10 PM (851 Views)
The Mitro
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Since I just finished Dies the Fire I'm in the mood for a topic like this.

So...what if the change in the laws of physics in Dies the Fire were always the law of physics? That would mean electricity, dynamite, steam power, and gunpowder don't work the way they are supposed to. What would the world be like?

Note: Gunpowder was used as far back as the 9th century in China, so the POD would be somewhere in that region.
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alchemist
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So combustion can't happen then or is the change in the laws of physics something else? Sorry haven't read the series yet, but I have a felling that the the actual change that Stirling propsed would leave us dead long before now just do to messing with that sort of stuff.
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Wyldstaar
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Okay, I just Wikied Dies the Fire , so I've got an idea of what you're going for with this. From the description, it sounds like coal and oil won't work as fuel either. Not even steam power works, huh? Very wierd. Too weird, in fact. The sorts of changes in the laws of physics the description entails wouldn't appear to allow for the universe itself to continue. Once you pull the energy thread, the whole cosmos would unravel. Even if the effect is localized to Earth, it would still mean that everything within that effect would die.

That being said, lets suspend our disbelief a spell. Metalurgy wouldn't be developed since too much energy is required to melt metals into usefull forms. Without metals, we can't even cut a straight piece of wood. We're left with stone and wood as our primary source of tools. Stone age, forever.

Not very interesting, really. The notion of this occuring in modern times is interesting, because it's a fish out of water situation. People already have loads of metal tools about, and have the knowledge available to them to work around the problems they are faced with to some extent. If we started out in this pickle in the first place, we just wouldn't go very far.
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The Mitro
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Wyldstaar
Mar 4 2008, 10:22 PM
Okay, I just Wikied Dies the Fire , so I've got an idea of what you're going for with this. From the description, it sounds like coal and oil won't work as fuel either. Not even steam power works, huh? Very wierd. Too weird, in fact. The sorts of changes in the laws of physics the description entails wouldn't appear to allow for the universe itself to continue. Once you pull the energy thread, the whole cosmos would unravel. Even if the effect is localized to Earth, it would still mean that everything within that effect would die.

That being said, lets suspend our disbelief a spell. Metalurgy wouldn't be developed since too much energy is required to melt metals into usefull forms. Without metals, we can't even cut a straight piece of wood. We're left with stone and wood as our primary source of tools. Stone age, forever.

Not very interesting, really. The notion of this occuring in modern times is interesting, because it's a fish out of water situation. People already have loads of metal tools about, and have the knowledge available to them to work around the problems they are faced with to some extent. If we started out in this pickle in the first place, we just wouldn't go very far.

Um...suspend disbelief somemore, there is metalurgy. I think you are looking way to into it.
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Makkabee
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The premise of the series left me completely cold. I thumbed through chapter one and gave up. The most annoying thing about it is that it was a sequel of sorts to the Nantucket books which I loved, and I'd have massively enjoyed getting more of those instead.
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Wyldstaar
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The Mitro
Mar 4 2008, 11:27 PM
Um...suspend disbelief somemore, there is metalurgy.  I think you are looking way to into it.

If that's the case, I just don't think I'm going to be able to get how this weird world works. If things have been altered so dramatically that steam can't be used to drive equipment, that's extremely radical. I think I'd have to read the books to fully grasp the concept, and it doesn't sound like something I'd be into. If I have to suspend my logic too far for a story, I quickly lose interest.

This actually happend to me last week. I picked up the Red Dawn: Special Edition DVD at half-price books. I loved that movie when I was a kid, and hadn't seen it in decades. I got ten or fifteen minutes into it, and couldn't take it anymore. Every thirty seconds after the action started I was seeing something I knew to be completely impractical. Even some of the alternate history recap we got in the oppening sequence was illogical. I've learned too much about modern warfare to be able to enjoy the story the way I did when I was a dumb kid who didn't know any better.
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The Mitro
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Wyldstaar
Mar 5 2008, 11:02 AM
The Mitro
Mar 4 2008, 11:27 PM
Um...suspend disbelief somemore, there is metalurgy.  I think you are looking way to into it.

If that's the case, I just don't think I'm going to be able to get how this weird world works. If things have been altered so dramatically that steam can't be used to drive equipment, that's extremely radical. I think I'd have to read the books to fully grasp the concept, and it doesn't sound like something I'd be into. If I have to suspend my logic too far for a story, I quickly lose interest.

This actually happend to me last week. I picked up the Red Dawn: Special Edition DVD at half-price books. I loved that movie when I was a kid, and hadn't seen it in decades. I got ten or fifteen minutes into it, and couldn't take it anymore. Every thirty seconds after the action started I was seeing something I knew to be completely impractical. Even some of the alternate history recap we got in the oppening sequence was illogical. I've learned too much about modern warfare to be able to enjoy the story the way I did when I was a dumb kid who didn't know any better.

Yeah Red Dawn was good...when you are younger. The idea of even being able to invade the US like the Soviets did was ridiculous.

Still with this book, thats the things with ASBs: it doesn't matter if its impracticable. But not everyone likes that and I know the Alternate History Wiki forbids ASB stories, but its always been a favorite of mine.
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Zzarchov
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I don't mind ASB's if they are a book not about the change and how awesome it would be to read about, but if they are using it as a means of isolating or highlighting some facet of society and making a statement about it.

ie, Children of Men was good, Even though I cannot think of a feasible reason for no more babies that only impacts humans and cannot be solved (even if expensively with a high rate of failure) in some form. But the story really wasn't about that.
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Wyldstaar
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Zzarchov
Mar 6 2008, 09:29 AM
Children of Men was good, Even though I cannot think of a feasible reason for no more babies that only impacts humans and cannot be solved (even if expensively with a high rate of failure) in some form. But the story really wasn't about that.

Yeah, that kinda bugged me too. Anything that might cause infertility in humans can't possibly have a 100% impact. Even the most deadly of diseases isn't that effective on a species. There's always going to be a small percentage of the population who is immune. Since the population of humans on Earth is so high today, any plague that comes along still isn't going to be enough to wipe us out. Even at 99.99% mortality, that still leaves millions of people alive. It would be a struggle to find other survivors and build a new society, but it could be done.

Has anyone ever written a book about this sort of thing that didn't at some kind of supernatural element to it? The only ones I can think of are The Stand and I Am Legend. I Am Legend has the vampire people, which isn't remotely realistic. The Stand starts out being fairly realistic for the first part of the story with the plague, but after that the supernatural bit kicks in.
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eamonhart
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Makkabee
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Stirling's biggest weakness as an AH author is his reliance on heavy handed credibility-straining changes. A series of meteor impacts in the 19th century that wreck the western world but leave everything else untouched, South Africa getting every possible technological and political break to turn into a superpower, a shift in the laws of physics to return us to medieval technology... if you can get passed the forced "I want this outcome and I don't care what I have to do to get it" premise they can be good reads, but I can't always get past that premise.
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The Guy from Fiji
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Makkabee
Mar 7 2008, 01:01 AM
Stirling's biggest weakness as an AH author is his reliance on heavy handed credibility-straining changes. A series of meteor impacts in the 19th century that wreck the western world but leave everything else untouched, South Africa getting every possible technological and political break to turn into a superpower, a shift in the laws of physics to return us to medieval technology... if you can get passed the forced "I want this outcome and I don't care what I have to do to get it" premise they can be good reads, but I can't always get past that premise.

Makk, I agree and disagree at the same time.

Stirling chooses some wild premises, yes. But so do others, and are some of those scenarios any wilder (time travel in GotS, 3-foot lizard aliens in the World War series)? Some times we just have to accept certain ideas and enjoy the story from there.

My issue with Stirling is that after he's established his weird premise, the coincidences begin... Example: Dies the Fire. "Well, we survived the plane crash and the most unnecessary character died. Now we found some people who survived the initial madness who have valuable skills. Now we've found important supplies. Yea!" As much as I like the Nantucket series, it was even worse. "Aw shucks, we're stuck in the Bronze Age. Hey great, a Coast Guard ship got stuck with us, and the captain is very competent, but not politically ambitious! And look, a professor who is an expert on the era is also on the island! And a hippie blacksmith! And...!"
Sic Temper Molemannis!
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Makkabee
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The Nantucket examples don't bother me -- Nantucket draws people like that. Lots of hippies in Massachussets. Also, Stirling balanced all those bits out. The captain was competent and not politically ambitious (which makes sense for the Coast Guard -- who joins that service as a springboard to high office? We've had quite a few soldiers and a smattering of sailors who've gone on to the White House, but never a Coastie), but a competent and politically ambitious lieutenant on the ship balanced that out by trying to set himself up as a king. You had a hippie blacksmith who could help kick off the iron age revolution, but you also had a great mass of hippies who were worse than useless, stealing valuable tech and getting themselves killed in a quixotic effort to prevent a historic crime that likely wouldn't happen anyway once Nantucket started changing history.

Yes, having Harry Turt-- I mean, Ian Arnstein on the island was convenient, but there are plenty of history professors out there and a fair number do specialize in ancient Greece and the near east. Having him around at the begining of the story is part of the premise, and a stretch I can accept. Now, having that wealthy fellow from the middle east who used to race camels show up in the second or third book fits in with the kind of complaint you're making. He wasn't part of the original cast, just shoehorned in for plot convenience.
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Wyldstaar
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The Guy from Fiji
Mar 8 2008, 03:18 AM
Stirling chooses some wild premises, yes. But so do others, and are some of those scenarios any wilder (time travel in GotS, 3-foot lizard aliens in the World War series)? Some times we just have to accept certain ideas and enjoy the story from there.

I'd have to say no, those premises are not more wild that the Dies the Fire one. Those stories take place in a world that is readily understandable. Guns o/t South uses a limited form of time travel. As sci-fi goes, this is hardly a difficult concept to wrap one's head around. The target audience of the book is familiar with both the modern and US Civil War eras which are involved in the tale. For the WW/Col TL, it's even more simple. There's no technology used that defies the known laws of physics until the final novel (when humans develop FTL). The aliens of the story are bizarre because aliens should be bizarre. The lizards are a culture that developed totally separate from our own, with a totally different biology. Anyone who thinks that aliens are just like us, but with a ridge on their foreheads, has been watching too much Star Trek. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to discover that there is a real alien species out there somewhere that develops their technology at a snail's pace. Our methods are highly prone to self-destruction. We came a hair's breadth away from blowing ourselves up during the Cuban Missile Crisis as it is. I expect that most races that develop along the same lines as us probably destroy themselves.
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The Guy from Fiji
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I think I emphasized the wrong things in my earlier argument. My point was not to argue the merits of one premise over another, but instead, what a particular author does with the story built from that premise.

For Example: One of my favorite novels is U.S.! A Novel by Chris Bachelder. It has one of the oddest premises; Upton Sinclair is continually killed and resurrected. We never receive an explanation, the premise just is. And the characters just accept this as a long established part of their world. Yet, the author took this bizarre idea and made me forget how weird it was.

I'm not saying that authors shouldn't put some care in how they base their stories. Or that we the readers should just accept everything (shut up and read!). What I m saying is that it is possible for a writer to take a weird idea and run with it. I would have had a much easier time swallowing the premise of Dies the Fire if Stirling had reduced the number of lucky coincidences.
Sic Temper Molemannis!
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