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Dead the Fire
Topic Started: Mar 4 2008, 07:10 PM (850 Views)
LoneHawkBoy
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Jarl of East Anglia
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Wyldstaar
Mar 5 2008, 11:02 AM
The Mitro
Mar 4 2008, 11:27 PM
Um...suspend disbelief somemore, there is metalurgy.  I think you are looking way to into it.

If that's the case, I just don't think I'm going to be able to get how this weird world works. If things have been altered so dramatically that steam can't be used to drive equipment, that's extremely radical. I think I'd have to read the books to fully grasp the concept, and it doesn't sound like something I'd be into. If I have to suspend my logic too far for a story, I quickly lose interest.

First just to point out metallurgy doesn't take modern technology to do, see for example Damascus steel, just to make higher tensile strength alloys takes hotter and hotter flames than you can get effectively with a bellows and oak furnace.

That and steam CAN drive engines, they do TRY to do that in the first book the problem is that to get any kind of workable horsepower out of it you would need an engine and fuel source that is too large for it to be efficient. Stirling does throw out the possibility of Alien Space Bats through one of the characters though, that made me lol.

Personally I've blown through the series and he's making more to them, I like it because of the whole fish out of water aspect as well as the process of ethnogenesis taking place and how it is described especially since the characters have some knowledge of how things worked in the Middle Ages, certainly making things interesting as to what evolves. If you can't get past what caused the Change and the Change itself its probably not worth reading to you, but if you focus less on the mechanics of that and more on the impact and reaction it is a VERY fun and interesting read.
Axe-time, sword-time shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;

Volupso, Lines 43-44
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The Guy from Fiji
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LoneHawkBoy
Jun 15 2008, 10:26 PM
If you can't get past what caused the Change and the Change itself its probably not worth reading to you, but if you focus less on the mechanics of that and more on the impact and reaction it is a VERY fun and interesting read.

But, once you get past the ASB aspect, Stirling tells a tale where any form of government resembling democracy is is either cast aside or portrayed as ineffective for the new world. To paraphrase someone from our discussion of this book on CB 1.0, "Representative government can't work without gunpowder? That would come as a surprise to the Athenians and the Romans." I didn't find that aspect of the story to be very believable.
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LoneHawkBoy
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The Guy from Fiji
Jun 16 2008, 09:06 PM
LoneHawkBoy
Jun 15 2008, 10:26 PM
If you can't get past what caused the Change and the Change itself its probably not worth reading to you, but if you focus less on the mechanics of that and more on the impact and reaction it is a VERY fun and interesting read.

But, once you get past the ASB aspect, Stirling tells a tale where any form of government resembling democracy is is either cast aside or portrayed as ineffective for the new world. To paraphrase someone from our discussion of this book on CB 1.0, "Representative government can't work without gunpowder? That would come as a surprise to the Athenians and the Romans." I didn't find that aspect of the story to be very believable.

There were democratic forms of government in there, the city-state of Corvallis had a very Roman style of democracy with a Popular Assembly and the Faculty Senate although said Senate was prone to deadlock which isn't far from the truth, the Clan MacKenzie was loosely based on Irish and Scottish Clans with the requirement that the leaders be selected and approved by the Clan every year at Beltaine, and the Bearkillers after the War of the Eye instituted a House of Commons. That and CORA didn't exactly have a government beyond the various ranchers working together if you could call what they had a government. I think he more was pointing out in the places where democracy died HARD was more due to individuals who didn't want democratic forms to work and preferred personal power like in the Protectorate where you had a very warped SCA nut who wanted to remake feudal Normandy with himself as William the Bastard.
Axe-time, sword-time shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;

Volupso, Lines 43-44
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The Guy from Fiji
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LoneHawkBoy
Jun 17 2008, 12:28 AM
There were democratic forms of government in there, the city-state of Corvallis had a very Roman style of democracy with a Popular Assembly and the Faculty Senate although said Senate was prone to deadlock which isn't far from the truth, the Clan MacKenzie was loosely based on Irish and Scottish Clans with the requirement that the leaders be selected and approved by the Clan every year at Beltaine, and the Bearkillers after the War of the Eye instituted a House of Commons. That and CORA didn't exactly have a government beyond the various ranchers working together if you could call what they had a government. I think he more was pointing out in the places where democracy died HARD was more due to individuals who didn't want democratic forms to work and preferred personal power like in the Protectorate where you had a very warped SCA nut who wanted to remake feudal Normandy with himself as William the Bastard.

I don't deny that there were portrayals of democratic governments in the story. But Stirling seemed to go out of his way to demonstrate all the weaknesses of representative democracy and all the strengths of centralized authority. He even went so far as to have the main hero Mike "Lord Bear" (can't remember his last name) state out loud that democracy was great when there was the buffer of leisure time, but that in this new world they needed strong (implicitly central) leadership.

What was the character's line, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee"? What the hell is wrong with a camel? Sure, they're smelly, but they are very effective.

I did take a peak at the map inside the cover of the book for the next trilogy in that series (set about 20 years later). Looks like there is a story of a bit of a quest headed east, and in my neck of the woods Stirling has labeled a couple of republics. So maybe I'll give it another chance once the paperback comes out.
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LoneHawkBoy
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The Guy from Fiji
Jun 17 2008, 07:54 AM
I don't deny that there were portrayals of democratic governments in the story.  But Stirling seemed to go out of his way to demonstrate all the weaknesses of representative democracy and all the strengths of centralized authority.  He even went so far as to have the main hero Mike "Lord Bear" (can't remember his last name) state out loud that democracy was great when there was the buffer of leisure time, but that in this new world they needed strong (implicitly central) leadership.

What was the character's line, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee"?  What the hell is wrong with a camel?  Sure, they're smelly, but they are very effective.

I did take a peak at the map inside the cover of the book for the next trilogy in that series (set about 20 years later).  Looks like there is a story of a bit of a quest headed east, and in my neck of the woods Stirling has labeled a couple of republics.  So maybe I'll give it another chance once the paperback comes out.

I think he's more trying to point out the impact that a cult of personality can have on the founding of new societies, especially when you are in a situation where people are forming a new kind of society following the utter and total collapse of the old order. Capable, charismatic people will often take the lead even if you have something working in a democratic fashion, I know that Mike Havel says in the second book that his position as Bear Lord lasts until he dies, retires, or is impeached by the Outfit for fucking up spectacularly or breaking the laws of the Outfit which even then is a nice step ahead of total autocracy.

I know from studying early medieval history the chronicles and accounts of the kings who founded places like Francia and Wessex loomed larger than life and had a disproportionate impact on the shaping of their societies compared to later rulers, the same thing is happening here, or you could look at the case of democratic states like Athens where one capable man, like Pericles or Alcibiades, were able to dominate the city in their lifetimes even though it was a democracy. Cult of personality is much harder to unseat on a smaller scale especially when it is easier to hide the bodies, in this modern day and age I don't think its easy to wrap our brains around that because of the ease of transmission of information now and how hard it is to hide something. When you live in a world at that level of technology and limitations on travel a capable king who you see maybe once or twice a year is going to seem god-like compared to now where we know the intimate details of our elected officials like they are our roommates.

And yes, the next book is good, only spoilers I'll give is there's some religious nutjobs they run into, from the sneak peek Stirling gave on his site for the fifth book they're still having fun with said nutjobs for a bit as it seems like he needed to make a new villain. The continued evolution of post-Change society is certainly interesting.
Axe-time, sword-time shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;

Volupso, Lines 43-44
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Trebuchet
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(Practicing necromancy here, but shoot, I've been away for a while...)

Quote:
 
Has anyone ever written a book about this sort of thing that didn't at some kind of supernatural element to it? The only ones I can think of are The Stand and I Am Legend. I Am Legend has the vampire people, which isn't remotely realistic. The Stand starts out being fairly realistic for the first part of the story with the plague, but after that the supernatural bit kicks in.


The book "Eternity Road" by Jack McDevitt is set well after a massive plague kills damn near everyone and more-or-less resets society. The story revolves around a few people trying to find a now-legendary stockpile of books from the largely unknown time before the plague.

If you mean a book set *during* such a plague... no, not that I know of.
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SladeJack
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I never read the book in question.
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The Guy from Fiji
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'Eternity Road' is one of my favs. It's not very long (first time I read most of it on a lazy Saturday afternoon/evening), but tells a nice tale.

Massive plague hits in the mid-21st century, civilization crashes. After a thousand years of smaller civilizations rising a falling, a confederation of city-states arises on the banks of the southern Mississippi (comparable to Renaissance Italy). The Illyrians are proud of their advancements in science and politics, but are always daunted by the amazing ruins of the old Roadmaker civilization (even the name 'America' has been lost).

Few books survive, but there is a legend that at the end of the Roadmaker civilization, an intrepid group sailed around the world in a magical underwater ship, collected every book they could find and stored them in a place called 'Haven' far to the north and east. Ten years ago an expedition set out to find Haven and failed. But after the sole survivor of the failed explorers dies, it is revealed that he had a copy of a previously unknown book "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" by Mark Twain. This sparks a new expedition.

The story format owes a great deal to a classic Tolkien-style fantasy quest. But instead of magic the travelers encounter the 'ghosts' of the Roadmaker civilization. It's a really fun read.
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SladeJack
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Sounds interesting.
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The Guy from Fiji
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I highly recommend it Sladester. It's fun a fun read. The new societies that have arisen, the Illyrian perspective on what they know about our civilization. Coolest of all are the 'ghosts', the select few A.I.s that are still functioning (to one degree or another) after a millennium.
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Makkabee
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I'll have to look for that. I do enjoy distant post-apocalyptic novels.
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SladeJack
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Is it still in print?
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Trebuchet
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Should be, it's not that old. I picked up a paperback version... two years ago? Maybe three. Reasonably new.
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SladeJack
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Still in print. I put it on my Amazon wish list.
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The Guy from Fiji
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Lemme know after you guys have read it, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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