Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Alternate History Lounge. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
A TL-191 Thread
Topic Started: Jun 17 2008, 03:27 PM (1,975 Views)
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I knew you had changed jobs but I thought it was within the same company. Yeah, shipping supplies is a good business.

`I think there is some truth to that. I heard a story last week explaining that while prices keep ratcheting up, the one thing keep them down is that fact that many industries know that too much of an increase will shoot themselves in the foot. `

Not quite as comforting as what I read, which is that because retailers are raking in the dough we don`t need to fear a rapid drop of more and more people to below the poverty line.

The Korean won is a stable currency, as much so as any, but is exchanged with the US dollar at a rate of 1000:1, leftover from a horrible economy decades ago. Ditto the yen; 100:1. When this is all over I wonder if we`ll end up using $10 bills the way we used to use $1 bills, $100s for $10s, et cetera. If so I hope they move Lincoln from the nearly-worthless $5 to one of the new, high-denomination bills they`ll have to print. I figure they`ll be rolling out $200s, $500s, and $1000s for general circulation. Considering what`s brought us to this point honoring FDR with one of those would seem appropriate. Who should get the third? I`ve always thought it wrong that Theodore Roosevelt doesn`t grace any currency.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
alchemist
Serf
[ * ]
Hamliton jumps to mind for the 200 ?, whatever the main denomination would be, makes more sense then jackson on the twenty.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Guy from Fiji
Member Avatar
Bullshitter
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Cleveland! Cleveland! Cleveland!
Sic Temper Molemannis!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MapleLeafs4Ever
Landowner
[ *  *  *  * ]
SladeJack
Jun 19 2008, 09:18 AM
Now since all our POV characters spent the rest of the series fighting a total war, I suppose for them that`s rather more dramatic a crisis so it commanded their attention. Yet another disadvantage of the absence of home-fronters. Most people I`ve known who were civilians at the time say that living through the Depression and war at home were about equally upsetting crises, six of one half a dozen of the other.

The only civilian viewpoint I can think of, that was outside of occupied territory, was that expressed by Grimes' parents when they visited him in the hospital. Their main concerns were the CS bomber raids each night and getting enough to eat. I expect that if your country is at war and is within the war zone (unlike the U.S. or Canada in OTL), then the immediate concerns of not getting killed are top of mind and you don't really think about the depression of a couple of years ago. This makes the circumstances different from that of the people you had talked to unless they had emigrated from Europe after the war.

Also, with war plant work and able bodied, younger men in the military, unemployment would have disappeared so there is another reason the average person wouldn't worry about the past.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think Madison would be a good choice for currency -- he's got the "father of the Constitution" thing going for him, and he signed the law chartering the Second BUS so he's got a link to our financial history. Also, as a member of a now-defunct party, or rather two since he switched in the early 90s, he won't trigger partisan wrangling with Democrats resisting adding another Republican to the currency and Republicans doing the same to the Democrats.

Other prime candidates are John Marshall, our first great chief justice, and Henry Clay. It doesn't always have to be presidents, after all.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Custer
Member Avatar
Resident Kamikaze Warrior
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
What about John Caldwell Calhoun for the lulz?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think you've seceded from your senses.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
"Hamliton jumps to mind for the 200 ?, whatever the main denomination would be, makes more sense then jackson on the twenty. "

He'd still be on the ten, which would still be going strong.

I've long been a proponent of replacing either Grant or Jackson with Theodore Roosevelt. He's my second-favorite President after Lincoln though I am a bit scandalized by his shameful behavior during WWI.

"The only civilian viewpoint I can think of, that was outside of occupied territory, was that expressed by Grimes' parents when they visited him in the hospital. Their main concerns were the CS bomber raids each night and getting enough to eat. I expect that if your country is at war and is within the war zone (unlike the U.S. or Canada in OTL), then the immediate concerns of not getting killed are top of mind and you don't really think about the depression of a couple of years ago. This makes the circumstances different from that of the people you had talked to unless they had emigrated from Europe after the war."

True but it should have been on their minds in VO. I remember Armstrong saying he was having trouble finding work but that seemed to be because at that point he was a useless waste of life rather than because the economy was shot to shit.

"I think Madison would be a good choice for currency -- he's got the 'father of the Constitution' thing going for him, and he signed the law chartering the Second BUS so he's got a link to our financial history."

Maybe. I've never been crazy about him.

He's got, or used to have, the $5000, didn't he?

"Also, as a member of a now-defunct party, or rather two since he switched in the early 90s, he won't trigger partisan wrangling with Democrats resisting adding another Republican to the currency and Republicans doing the same to the Democrats."

Ooh, that's a good point.

Adding both Roosevelts is a good way to avoid that--something for everything. If Bernanke's evil plot to turn the US dollar into the Indonesian rupiah is thwarted and our currency stays sound, maybe we could replace Grant and Jackson simultaneously with both Rosies.

"Cleveland! Cleveland! Cleveland!"

For these purposes I'm leaving out the fact that many of these large bills were printed in the past and had people assigned to them. Cleveland was indeed on the $1000. I remember in The Godfather Returns Fredo looks at a thousand dollar bill and says "Cleveland! What did Cleveland ever do?" I found myself taking a pause from the reading to argue with that assessment in my mind. He was about as effective as any late-nineteenth-century Pres. He and Arthur.

The $500 is McKinley. That's disgusting. Honoring the most criminal leader in all of American history. Having him on currency makes keeping Jackson around look downright virtuous by comparison. Thank God the $500 is out of print.

The $5000 is as I said above Madison.

The $10,000 is Salmon Chase. That seems kinda pointless.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I was just thinking, this is one of the more rapid cases of topic drift we've had.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MapleLeafs4Ever
Landowner
[ *  *  *  * ]
On this board TL-191 appears to be a dead topic so no wonder.

It can be Donuted if a question occurs to somebody but as far as I am concerned it can slowly sink down the list for now. Unless there are any other currency issues?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
"On this board TL-191 appears to be a dead topic so no wonder."

We thought a one-thread mop-up for lingering questions and thoughts that occurred to us after the fact might fly. I'm rather surprised it didn't, actually; the series was a major part of our lives for a long time, I would have expected it to make more of a mark.

I know though that, at least for me, once it was over my reaction was more like "Thank God--It was so painful watching something I used to enjoy so much become so deteriorated." Sort of like the last season of The Sopranos.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Chase was Secretary of the Treasury when the US issued the first greenbacks, so I can see why they'd want to put him on currency.

You're right about McKinley, though -- a tool of the party machine at home and an ethnocentric bigotted imperialist abroad. Annex the Philipines so we could Christianize the place? Not only is it a violation of our basic principles to go on crusade -- the state is not meant to be the temporal arm of any religion -- but most Phillipinos were already Christian. Except in the far south, just about everyone there was Catholic.

And of course there's the whole betraying Aguilaldo, denying freedom to a people who wanted it and fought for it, setting up concentration camps to control the island and break the insurrection thing. Woodrow Wilson was a putz, but he did two worthwhile things as president -- one was establishing the Federal Reserve (fuck you, Ron Paul), and the other was agreeing to grant the Phillipines independence with the transition to be complete by 1944 (WWII delayed things slightly).


As for Madison, Virginia Resolutions and screwing over Marbury and company aside I like the guy. He helped draft an excellent constitution, outmaneuvered Patrick Henry to get it ratified in Virginia, came up with a better Bill of Rights than the one we adopted (his version would have explicitly stated that the states couldn't violate those rights either), chartered the Second Bank of the United States, signed our first protective tariff into law, and freed his slaves in his will. Not a bad resume. He wasn't an effective wartime president, I'll certainly grant that, but he learned from his mistakes and he's been railroaded into that war by congress anyway -- one of Henry Clay's few serious political blunders and the first of many for John Calhoun.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
"Chase was Secretary of the Treasury when the US issued the first greenbacks, so I can see why they'd want to put him on currency."

I suppose. That still doesn't seem like it shoud put him up there with Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson (the $2 was a contemporary of the $10,000) Hamilton, Franklin, and some of the most influential figures in all of American history, and certainly not ahead of many others. Particularly since he had the highest note of currency which could be construed as a special honor despite that bill not circulating much.

"You're right about McKinley, though -- a tool of the party machine at home and an ethnocentric bigotted imperialist abroad. Annex the Philipines so we could Christianize the place? Not only is it a violation of our basic principles to go on crusade -- the state is not meant to be the temporal arm of any religion -- but most Phillipinos were already Christian. Except in the far south, just about everyone there was Catholic.

"And of course there's the whole betraying Aguilaldo, denying freedom to a people who wanted it and fought for it, setting up concentration camps to control the island and break the insurrection thing. Woodrow Wilson was a putz, but he did two worthwhile things as president -- one was establishing the Federal Reserve (fuck you, Ron Paul), and the other was agreeing to grant the Phillipines independence with the transition to be complete by 1944 (WWII delayed things slightly)."

Agreed and agreed.

"As for Madison, Virginia Resolutions and screwing over Marbury and company aside I like the guy. He helped draft an excellent constitution, outmaneuvered Patrick Henry to get it ratified in Virginia, came up with a better Bill of Rights than the one we adopted (his version would have explicitly stated that the states couldn't violate those rights either), chartered the Second Bank of the United States, signed our first protective tariff into law, and freed his slaves in his will. Not a bad resume. He wasn't an effective wartime president, I'll certainly grant that, but he learned from his mistakes and he's been railroaded into that war by congress anyway -- one of Henry Clay's few serious political blunders and the first of many for John Calhoun."

He was better than Jefferson and many another. I don't care for his presidency though much of the rest of his career is rather more to my liking. I need to keep that in mind with a lot of those founding fathers.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
All right, here's a 191 question. Now that you've had some time to digest the series in its entirety, what would you identify as its golden age, and can you pick out a defining shark-jumping moment?

I think the series was at its best in the five-book period between Breakthroughs and Return Engagements, with the American Empire trilogy also being part of that.

At the end of WiH I was really jonesing for the continuation all year long, but I had no real love of that book in particular. I think it might be because I started the series in '99, was able to read the first three books in quick succession, and had become invested in the story as a whole, and having to wait a long time for the continuation was unpleasant. Also, somehow I had not noticed that the books were being released at the rate of one per summer so I had no idea when I would see the next book and kept checking bookstore shelves in hope of seeing what I'd longed for.

In each year from '00 to '04 I felt a certain wistfulness, a "Sorry to see you go," at the end of each book, and after B and again after VO I wasn't entirely certain the series would be continued. There was a certain sense of, I wait a whole year for this, gobble it up in two weeks, and then end up starting over the long wait right away. From '05 on, joining the board helped with that--there could be "new" developments with new topics of discussion, and we could do our thing on the Wiki.

But after DttE the feeling of "Can't wait for the next one" was gone. Honestly I kept reading more out of force of habit after that. DttE was definitely the point in the series when I realized that, in the struggle between Good Ideas and Number of Pages to see which could be more prolific, Good Ideas undeniably raised the white flag. I can't point to a specific moment. Part of me wants to say it came almost immediately, with that lame bombing raid, sending bombers over Richmond in broad daylight just to attempt a dopy--and super-unlikely--tit-for-tat bombing of the Gray House. Another part says everything was till going strong till near the very end when Pittsburgh played out so predictably. I guess if I had to split the difference I would say that replacing that bitch Mary with Michael Pound, a nonsensical move, sort of revealed some writing on the wall, along with O'Doull very clearly turning into O'Dull at about the same time. These transplantations of characters from the Great Wild North to the same front as everyone else showed (I guess) an unfortunate narrowing in the story's scope. Earlier 191 installments had taken on a near-epic feel with their interweaving of the stories of diverse characters from throughout North America, and the narrowing of the story to two plotlines (the CS's battles against the US and the blacks) let all the remaining magic out of the bag.

I did feel a certain poignancy as I finished IatD. I think this was mostly for what the series had been, because now I was ending what had been continuity with the good old days, but also because I do believe that book managed to recapture a glimmer of the old drama as it neared the end. The conclusions were pretty satisfying, no matter what Gone Jizzy claims.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Custer
Member Avatar
Resident Kamikaze Warrior
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I liked all the books, and looked forward to the release of each new volume with eagerness.

However, looking back, I think the Great War trilogy was probably the best one. The stories and writing were all fresh, though the American Empire retained some of the freshness. Really, it seemed to decline with Return Engagement.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Alternate History Media · Next Topic »
Add Reply