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Britannia's Fist; Tsouras' latest
Topic Started: Jan 31 2008, 12:26 PM (1,133 Views)
Makkabee
Count
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They'd see that a big chunk of the French army and navy were tied down in North America and France was in a uniquely vulnerable situation. Also, both Bismarck and the Italians had a long-standing policy of taking any allies they could get who'd help knock down anyone standing in the way of unification. The Italians would also have a pro-Union Garibaldi urging them to support the US.
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SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
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True. Also the Union would know that their only chance of avoiding a thumpin' is getting their own external allies, Europe is the only continent where worthwhile allies exist, and would proceed to recruit anyone who might be willing aggressively.

I wonder if they find some way to support Mexican nationalists against French designs.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
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Makkabee
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Lincoln did, diplomatically. The disasterous 1864 Red River Campaign, which Grant was forced to authorize, had three goals: 1) the extension of US civil authority over more of Louisiana to strengthen the unionist government's claim to legitimacy there. 2) the capture of cotton to send to northern factories 3) A push west to get closer to Mexico and warn French forces there that the US hadn't forgotten the Monroe Doctrine. Had the expedition been led by a more competent general they might have accomplished the first two goals, but the third could only have been an indirect result of the campaign. Perhaps a decisive victory on the Red River would have allowed US forces to once again start probing the Texas coast and maybe recover Galveston. Even better would be the capture of Brownsville.
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SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
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Now it would be a more tantalizing prospect, because Mexican nationalists could become real allies against the French, but it would also be harder to project force with the Union having more enemies at their doorstep.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
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Custer
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Resident Kamikaze Warrior
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So this book's release date was yesterday, but Amazon doesn't have it yet. Neither do the brick-n-mortar sellers. I'm glad that this is the only book this shit happens to, otherwise I'd have to wonder.

Also, I just now noticed this is the first book in a trilogy.
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SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
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First book in a trilogy? That's cool. It might replace 191 as my favorite summer AH series (G&F's Pearl Harbor series is good but there's only one more year for that).

I ordered a ton of books from bn.com for my dad, who wanted to use my membership. Saved $80. I snuck this one in for myself. Scheduled delivery mid-late August. I'll wait.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
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LoneHawkBoy
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Jarl of East Anglia
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I might have to pick this up now, should be interesting.

What outcomes seem likely if France does get jumped by Italy and Prussia at the same time? Bismark likely would have coordinated something with his common Italian ally in such a situation giving France a lovely little two front fight not even counting the possibility of Russia sending in some meat for the grinder to help out with the whole clusterfuck to emerge.

As another question, what impact would it have on history for Germany and Italy to be united a decade or so earlier?
Axe-time, sword-time shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;

Volupso, Lines 43-44
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Makkabee
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Depends -- Italy effectively united in 1860/61, with only Lazio and Venezia left out of the common government. Unity a decade earlier means it probably happens under the auspices of the wild-eyed radicals like Garibaldi and Mazzini rather than the calculating Cavour. That'll make a huge difference in Italy's political structure and philosophy.

If you mean they get all of the Papal states in 1861 instead of just the Umbrian marches, probably not so much.

For Germany, we're talking about wars of unification before the Krupp steel breachloading cannon, probably before the needle-gun is adopted as well. If Prussia's fighting with weapons more in line with what the other powers are using they've got a longer and bloodier fight ahead of them, one where they might even need outside help. You're going to end up with a united but exhausted Germany, one less confident in the value of a military solution, or at least much more concerned about the cost of such a solution. You probably also avoid the humiliation of France and the French quest for revanche that so shaped the half century after German unification.

Without Germany bestriding Europe like a colossus, Britain is much more likely to maintain its traditional pro-Prussian slant. France is the traditional rival and Russia's the competitor in the Great Game, so Britain will be happy to have this less threatening Germany as an ally against either, in the event of a big flare-up. That would be huge.
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SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
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"For Germany, we're talking about wars of unification before the Krupp steel breachloading cannon, probably before the needle-gun is adopted as well. If Prussia's fighting with weapons more in line with what the other powers are using they've got a longer and bloodier fight ahead of them, one where they might even need outside help. You're going to end up with a united but exhausted Germany, one less confident in the value of a military solution, or at least much more concerned about the cost of such a solution. You probably also avoid the humiliation of France and the French quest for revanche that so shaped the half century after German unification."

If Prussia/Germany enters the conflict as a US ally--Well there are going to be a lot of pokers in the fire for both countries, but is there a chance the Prussians will become beneficiaries of Spencer repeating carbines, 13-inch mortars (Did they have any of their own?) and maybe even the Gatling gun to make up for the lack? Then you'd have German unification more or less militarily resembling OTL on a jumped-up schedule, but made possible by a federal republic/representative (sort of) democracy. Would that effect the Kaiserine political philosophy?

"What outcomes seem likely if France does get jumped by Italy and Prussia at the same time? Bismark likely would have coordinated something with his common Italian ally in such a situation giving France a lovely little two front fight not even counting the possibility of Russia sending in some meat for the grinder to help out with the whole clusterfuck to emerge."

I would think they'd have to give up their North American adventure and call all their troops home. They'd really have no choice in the matter--defending the homeland has to take priority. Thus they leave Britain holding the bag and majorly piss off London in one of the first tentative steps to Anglo-French cooperation after seven solid centuries of nastiness. That would certainly leave a bad taste in Britain's mouth (that or the tooth decay :lol) which could preclude any version of the Entente Cordial.

"Without Germany bestriding Europe like a colossus, Britain is much more likely to maintain its traditional pro-Prussian slant. France is the traditional rival and Russia's the competitor in the Great Game, so Britain will be happy to have this less threatening Germany as an ally against either, in the event of a big flare-up. That would be huge."

What about Germany being one member of a continent-bestriding colossal alliance system, but not its dominant member, or, if dominant, not dominant enough to bitch around the others? Especially with the other non-allied great power, France, just having finally convinced the UK to try a joint military venture, then gone and fucked it up and left them holding the bag? And doubly especially if they're looking at North America with renewed interest?

When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
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Makkabee
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You know, I was answering that question without thinking in terms of the American Civil War, just thinking about what would happen if the wars of reunification happened earlier in Europe.

If Prussia and Italy attack France in support of the US in the 1862-64 time frame we're looking at here then the Prussians don't have Krupp guns in their arsenal yet, but can probably get them fairly soon. They're also equipped with standard rifle-muskets, but the needle guns are an established technology and just need to be adopted. The new weapons won't be a factor in the first campaign, but could very well come online for the second or third. The French are starting the war with thousands of their best troops tied down in Mexico so they're in serious trouble anyway for the opening round. The Russians will support the pro-US coalition here, and Bismarck would likely give his left leg for their help. A secure flank, heavy pressure on Austria to stay out (they'll face a three front war if they don't -- that's ouchy and stingy on an epic level), and all those Russian men and resources that can pour into France over the German rail net. Yeah, the Axis of naughtiness is going to have all it can handle fighting the US, Prussia, Italy and Russia. Ought to be interesting.

And postwar the Prussians will remember that they didn't win this effectively alone (or at least as far and away the senior partner in an alliance), but as part of a coalition. That'll modify their thinking postwar.
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LoneHawkBoy
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Jarl of East Anglia
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Sounds like something interesting to play out, how about an RP on here, have someone serve as a general arbiter of "Yes you can no you can't" so we don't get steampunk French Revolution and to help preserve a degree of realism could be very interesting.
Axe-time, sword-time shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;

Volupso, Lines 43-44
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eamonhart
The Liquor Lord
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Are you sure the release date wasn't pushed back?
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-- Ronald Reagan
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TR1
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Heir Presumptive
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It's showing up as "to be published" at amazon.
"Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman
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SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
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As I said bn.com has scheduled it to ship to me on August 14.

I like LHB's idea. A lot. But if we're playing Mak's Fulminata game--We can barely kick up enough interest for one RPG at a time, two would be nigh on impossible. Let's put the BF scenario in queue. Though by the time we finish Fulminata (hoping it catches on) there's a good chance some of us will have read BF--But hell, we can deal with that.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
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LoneHawkBoy
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Jarl of East Anglia
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SladeJack
Aug 1 2008, 11:53 PM
As I said bn.com has scheduled it to ship to me on August 14.

I like LHB's idea.  A lot.  But if we're playing Mak's Fulminata game--We can barely kick up enough interest for one RPG at a time, two would be nigh on impossible.  Let's put the BF scenario in queue.  Though by the time we finish Fulminata (hoping it catches on) there's a good chance some of us will have read BF--But hell, we can deal with that.

Who is going to play as who? Perhaps we also put in something like for the first month of game time Prussia and Italy are sitting on the sidelines getting ready/figuring out what to do with the situation, if nothing else to give the Rebs some breathing space and make whoever is playing Lincoln an interesting situation to deal with. For a list of possible players I forsee the following:

Two game moderators
USA
CSA
Great Britain
France
Prussia
Italy
Russia
Mexican Nationalists

In advance I call dibs on Prussia
Axe-time, sword-time shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;

Volupso, Lines 43-44
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