| Welcome to Alternate History Lounge. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Britain's Bomb; UK nukes in the Lizard books | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 27 2008, 11:10 PM (1,457 Views) | |
| Custer | Jun 27 2008, 11:10 PM Post #1 |
|
Resident Kamikaze Warrior
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
When did the United Kingdom acquire nuclear weaponry? A lot of AH.commers are saying the British had them by the time the Colonization Fleet arrived in '62, but if that was true then why would London need to be leaning so heavily toward the Grossdeutsches Reich? The mention of "NORSK HYDRO" in Dover near the end of Striking the Balance doesn't clarify matters, either. |
| |
![]() |
|
| SladeJack | Jun 28 2008, 01:05 AM Post #2 |
|
The Grand SladeJack
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The Yeagers are sitting around discussing the strike on the Col fleet. They're trying to decide whether it was Germany or Russia. Babs says "Does it have to have been a Big Three member?" Sam says "Yes. Japan doesn't even have nukes. Britain does but not the missiles to fire them." Actually it was a pretty stupid question on Babs's part. If I had the book handy, or if Amazon still allowed Search Inside for most HT books, I'd give you a page number. Don't ask me why Britain wound up kissing Germany's ass. Their rapid decline never made any sense to me. Darwin used to cry "Anti-British Bias!" and use that as his example. In doing so in this case he was not without reason. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
![]() |
|
| Custer | Jun 28 2008, 01:25 AM Post #3 |
|
Resident Kamikaze Warrior
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
So why does Atvar, in Aftershocks, make so much noise about having to worry only about the USA and the SSSR, and then make more noise when Japan detonates a nuke? |
| |
![]() |
|
| Mr Nelg | Jun 28 2008, 04:23 AM Post #4 |
|
Lord of the Under Pants
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
SladeJack said...
Custer said...
Though I haven't read that series, I'm whiling to chock it up to another case of the infamous "Tennessee votes in the US election," mistake. Unless somebody else says exactly the same thing later on. Do they? As for Japan, did Japan have any ICBM's? Is that the reason Atvar made so much noise about Japan and not England? Then that doesn’t make any sense, because nether did the US, Russia or Germany at the end of World War. In the end, I've heard enough flames about 'Colonization' to burn down New York City. There are many things about Australia's involvement in World War that don't make any sense. HT dose have that nasty habit of not mentioning something until the last minute. Maybe this was one of them? Each time I try to come up with an answer to one question, four more take its place. My final comment, is HT goofed. Although I must put this out on the table. I've never really thought HT had a bias against England when he wrote World War. The reason I believe that HT never allowed England to posses nukes was that if England possessed nukes, was for the porous of having the Race posses more of the earth at the end of the book. By all logical standers, England should've gotten the bomb. But if they did get the bomb, then the Lizards would have to withdraw from all of the British empire, and there fore, the Lizards wouldn't be as entrenched as their were, and wouldn't make for a more interesting ending. |
| Let's see you do that kung-fu crap after I disintergrate your legs... | |
![]() |
|
| SladeJack | Jun 28 2008, 12:45 PM Post #5 |
|
The Grand SladeJack
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"So why does Atvar, in Aftershocks, make so much noise about having to worry only about the USA and the SSSR, and then make more noise when Japan detonates a nuke?" Could be an inconsistency. Could be a belief that with its major ally gone Britain couldn't do anything on its own even if it did have nukes. Notice though that even then he does not explicitly say that Britain is not a nuclear power. "Although I must put this out on the table. I've never really thought HT had a bias against England when he wrote World War." I agree. The Brits come off looking good in the first half. And in 191 they're the least noxious Ententer, and in RB they get treated as heroes even though they were capable of being every bit as totalitarian as the Spaniards. They even get let off the hook for the reconquest of Ireland. No, no bias. He lets Britain get all the bad breaks and make all the wrong decisions in response to them. I can see why the Mad Anglos would be pissed. I was pissed too; the story would be better if humanity had another independent actor capable of frustrating the Race's goals. Especially given all the trouble the Lizards had in India--that could be interesting. "The reason I believe that HT never allowed England to posses nukes" He did. "But if they did get the bomb, then the Lizards would have to withdraw from all of the British empire, and there fore, the Lizards wouldn't be as entrenched as their were, and wouldn't make for a more interesting ending." Not so sure about that. For one thing, unlike the Big Three the Empire wasn't contiguous, so it would be hard for the Brits to expect the Lizards to give up this island here, that river valley there, and so on. Maybe they could have tried to keep India, but then it would have been humans having all that difficulty in the 50s and 60s when the Indians bucked under the Race's yoke. Or Australia, but the Lizards thought that a rare prize and would likely have refused to give it up to a power not able to project force for its retaking. Also given their description of Canada as "the not-empire which appears to be neither a part of Britain nor of the United States," they don't seem too keen on recognizing the Commonwealth system as imperial. Also, the Empire was in none too fine a state when the Lizards got there: Singapore and Malaya had just fallen, Malta we now know could have held but who would have bet on it at that time? If Britain starts asking for those, do the Axis powers say "Hey, if the Lizards won't take it we should have it!"? They might have been able to insist on South Africa and India--the places where they were least welcome anyway, which would destabilize the humans' situation. We know New Zealand held out somehow but not whether they remained in the Commonwealth. Jamaica, the Bahamas, and the BVI they could almost certainly have kept, and that they could have held with little difficulty. The rest is much harder to retake and harder still to hold, and what point to nuclear weapons when all you get is piddling little islands like Jamaica? |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
![]() |
|
| TR1 | Jun 28 2008, 01:53 PM Post #6 |
![]()
Heir Presumptive
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Page 200 of the PB edition. Search inside still works, SJ. It's just that amazon is defaulting to the kindle edition of most of HT's books, which don't allow the search. Make sure you are looking at PB or HC. |
| "Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman | |
![]() |
|
| Custer | Jun 28 2008, 02:29 PM Post #7 |
|
Resident Kamikaze Warrior
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I really should reread Worldwar. I've been thinking about buying the series this summer. |
| |
![]() |
|
| SladeJack | Jun 28 2008, 03:14 PM Post #8 |
|
The Grand SladeJack
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"Search inside still works, SJ. It's just that amazon is defaulting to the kindle edition of most of HT's books, which don't allow the search. Make sure you are looking at PB or HC." Ah. "I really should reread Worldwar. I've been thinking about buying the series this summer." You know, every now and then I think back on it and realize--That was a really great series. Alas being such a voracious book-buyer I never have time to reread anything. Last time I tried was I believe seven years ago, and I soon gave up on the reread book in favor of new stuff. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
![]() |
|
| Custer | Jun 29 2008, 01:35 AM Post #9 |
|
Resident Kamikaze Warrior
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I might like it more if I read the series in order. The first time around, I read book one, three, four, and then two. Or maybe it was two followed by four. I don't remember. I treated the Derlavai books similarly, and then I reread books two and three, in order this time, and enjoyed them much more. |
| |
![]() |
|
| SladeJack | Jun 29 2008, 02:49 AM Post #10 |
|
The Grand SladeJack
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I read about a third of Book One. It didn't grab me and I let my attentiondrift elsewhere. A few months later the first two Col books were out. On a whim I took them out of the public library, mainly because I was curious about how the war had ended, and while I didn't read them I skimmed them pretty heavily. That revived my interest and I went back to ItB and picked up where I'd left off a year earlier. Then I read B, for which I had waited much more anxiously, and spent the rest of 2000 reading the rest of WW and the first two Col books (by pure coincidence SC came out in paperback just a few days before I went to buy it). The esteem in which I now hold the series may have something to do with the fact that the reading of the books is closely associated with a period of my life with which I have many fond memories for other, unrelated reasons. Many things from that era are, including Al Gore. Read A the following spring when it dropped in hardcover and realized there'd been a dropoff in quality somewhere along the way. Eagerly awaited HB a few years later and could tell right away as I read it that the magic was gone. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
![]() |
|
| Mr Nelg | Jun 29 2008, 03:56 AM Post #11 |
|
Lord of the Under Pants
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It’s fairly easy, perhaps too easy, for a reader to jump on a story and criticize the writer for telling an awful tale, I honestly don't believe that for the most part, a writer typically goes into a story saying "I'm going to tell a lousy story," or "I'm really going to screw things up with this tale." Deadlines, personal problems, problems with family or staff/editors from the publishers, all occasionally conspire to turn out the inevitable clunker. This is the reason that I don’t believe that HT has a cretin hatred of anyone in particular when he writes. I hate the French, but I must confess, that the scene in AE: TVO where the French Colonel is talking about the downside of attacking Germany, really made me feel sorry for France. That’s the first time I’ve ever felt like that. Bravo Harry. That final scene at the end of SA: IATD where you see the British Sub captain still defiant despite England knocked out for a loop, touched me. Although there is only ONE instance in history I’m aware of were a creative team intentionally wrote a personalized “FUCK YOU” message for the fans, I doubt HT has or will ever do that. But one might point to the final paragraph in SA:IATD with the reference to Tobacco as one. The point is that HT wasn’t prepared to write a sequel for World War, and that pressure from the Fans forced his hand. World War is just one of those stories that should’ve been a one off, not a series. There’s only so much you can do with a Cold War scenario to make it good and exciting enough to make the readers come back for more. Showing how a society has changed from different choices always makes the best AH for me. However, unless there’s a grand master plan for how the series is going to end, then it’s not worth writing. In the end, HT should’ve listened to Joss Whedon (I think it was him) who said… “Never Give The Fans What They Want!” |
| Let's see you do that kung-fu crap after I disintergrate your legs... | |
![]() |
|
| SladeJack | Jun 29 2008, 09:38 AM Post #12 |
|
The Grand SladeJack
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"Although there is only ONE instance in history I’m aware of were a creative team intentionally wrote a personalized 'FUCK YOU' message for the fans" What was this? What about Asimov's fans begging and pleading for a book about the Second Empire for years, and then his saying "All right, more Foundation" but still not describing the Second Empire? "But one might point to the final paragraph in SA:IATD with the reference to Tobacco as one." I don't think so but it's possible. "The point is that HT wasn’t prepared to write a sequel for World War, and that pressure from the Fans forced his hand." No, everyone was content with A as a conclusion. HB came out of left field. "Worldwar Relaunch: The Quest For More Royalties." Maybe fan demand made it too tempting. "World War is just one of those stories that should’ve been a one off, not a series. There’s only so much you can do with a Cold War scenario to make it good and exciting enough to make the readers come back for more." You mean at the end of StB? I think HT always had a postwar series in mind. The whole point of the series is "Let's see how the US, USSR, and GGR react when they're all forced to work together against another rival." That's why I don't condemn the premise as ridiculously far-fetched like others do--Can you think of a terrestrial power able to force all three superpowers onto the same boat? When I read WW I had foreknowledge of the existence of Col--and much foreknowledge of what happened therein--but I thought it glaringly obvious thatStB was setting up for a sequel series. And it was mostly a worthy successor, too; HT overextended himself a bit in the last book, but it was an acceptable story up to the end. It wasn't until HB came out of nowhere and ruined it that I though "Damn." Though I will confess that I'd harbored the private opinion that a story of humans visiting Home under their own mobility was called for. Actually I wouldn't mind seeing HT revisit that universe, but not to continue where HB left off. I've long been interested in an anthology of stories from the Race's pre-Tosevite history. Begin with ancient Home, show the Ssumaz unification, the development of the cult of emperor-worship, the first two interstellar expansions and the integration of the Rabotevs and Hallessi into the Race's society, and maybe end with the planning of the invasion of Tosev 3. Or even a coda showing the shock and confusion Homeside as Atvar's reports start reaching them. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
![]() |
|
| Mr Nelg | Jun 29 2008, 04:59 PM Post #13 |
|
Lord of the Under Pants
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
This incident occurred back in 1999, with the John Byrne and Howard Mackie Reboot of the Spider-Man titles. The said offense took place in Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 #18 and Peter Parker Spider-Man Volume 2 #18, with the resolution of the Identity of the 5th Green Goblin. Let me explain. During the previous years, Norman Osborn AKA the Green Goblin was trying to convince the world he wasn't the Green Goblin, so he had some mystery man stand in as the Goblin, so that both he and the Goblin could be seen together, thus throwing off all suspicion. However, the identity of this new Green Goblin -- Green Goblin No. 5 -- was never revealed. It was later discovered that writers Roger Stern and Glenn Greenburg who came up with this story had their original idea for the 5th Green Goblin's identity torpedoed by the higher ups without reason, so they never resolved it. But the fans wanted to know. They kept asking and asking. As the Reboot of the spider titles limped horribly out of the starting gate and got progressively worse, the fans wanted to see some resolution (ANY resolution would have been great) of who had been Norman's Goblin stand-in? So what was the answer? A clone (as if there hadn't been enough of those! And the Clone Saga was still fresh in a lot of people’s minds.) was the Goblin - but a clone of who? No idea. His face was originally Harry Osborns, but then shifted into other forms and then disintegrated. (That's the trade mark death of all clones from the Clone Saga.) This almost appeared to be a deliberate smack in the fans face for wanting Mackie to wrap up some of his storylines. Hah - we'll show you - we'll make it a nobody - even worse - a clone of nobody. |
| Let's see you do that kung-fu crap after I disintergrate your legs... | |
![]() |
|
| Mr Nelg | Jun 29 2008, 05:13 PM Post #14 |
|
Lord of the Under Pants
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That's not what I heard. From the chatter I've gotten from people they weren't really happy with the way Colonization just 'Ended.' I confess, I don't know if HT really DID want to continue after World War, but I DO know from the chatter I've heard from other web pages, that the fans really wanted a better conclusion for Colonization.
Actually, I've heard that the whole point of the saga was to show how difficult it would be to conquer an industrialized planet. I read that somewhere. (I think.) I can't quote it directly, but I do remember reading that somewhere. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine, because I can't prove it.
Now that's not a bad idea. But I think HT is done with the series. It has been labeled an Epilogue, and ending the series off with the Lizards being surpassed by humans in technology is a satisfactory conclusion. Although I wouldn't read it for the same reason I never read the Colonization Trilogy or Homeward Bond. No happy ending for Australia. |
| Let's see you do that kung-fu crap after I disintergrate your legs... | |
![]() |
|
| SladeJack | Jun 29 2008, 11:27 PM Post #15 |
|
The Grand SladeJack
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"That's not what I heard. From the chatter I've gotten from people they weren't really happy with the way Colonization just 'Ended.' I confess, I don't know if HT really DID want to continue after World War, but I DO know from the chatter I've heard from other web pages, that the fans really wanted a better conclusion for Colonization." Yeah, the conclusion was a bit too open-ended for my tastes but I could have lived with it. Could have, hell--I did for almost four years. I find it much easier to forgive authors for practicing "Leave them wanting more" than for beating a dead horse to stretch out a story that should have concluded long ago. "Actually, I've heard that the whole point of the saga was to show how difficult it would be to conquer an industrialized planet. I read that somewhere. (I think.) I can't quote it directly, but I do remember reading that somewhere. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine, because I can't prove it." I always took it to be "What if all the WWII powers had to pull together?" It seemed pretty obvious that was what he was driving at and this was reinforced by pithy little comments on the front of the books like "What if Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill and Tojo had to unite against an even greater threat?" Since we don't know Thing One about what sort of society would attempt to conquer an industrialized planet, that's pretty meaningless. You get to make up your own invaders and assign them whatever level of technology you choose. Give them turn-of-the-century weapons technology plus interstellar but sublight starships, rules of engagement that prevent them from utilizing what overwhelming force they do have, and a numerical disadvantage, and yeah, it's going to be hard. Give them, say, a fleet of transwarp-capable Borg cubes, a bajillion soldiers, and a supreme lack of concern about how many casualties they need to inflict and it's a piece of cake. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
![]() |
|
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Alternate History Media · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)





9:14 AM Jul 11