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| Britain's Bomb; UK nukes in the Lizard books | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 27 2008, 11:10 PM (1,459 Views) | |
| Morrell | Jul 10 2008, 11:04 PM Post #16 |
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Serf
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In response to your question about page number, I just happened to be re-reading the series when it came up and I just came across the quote about Britain possessing nukes and thought I'd share. Of course, it also adds more confusion to the issue, because he mentions Britain and Japan "flying rockets", which seems to imply ICBM capability. If that's the case, I don't understand why Goldfarb complains about Britain not being recognized...with ICBMs and nukes, they should have been a full-fledged independent "not-empire", especially considering the conditions the human powers were in at the time of the original peace. C:SC p. 200. "The Japs and the English fly rockets, yeah, but they haven't got anything in orbit, and it was an orbiting weapon that took out the Lizard's ships. The Japanese don't have nuclear weapons, either, though I know the British do." |
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| Makkabee | Jul 11 2008, 07:29 AM Post #17 |
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Count
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Spider Man says "fuck you" to the fans quite a lot. They had the Devil force Peter and MJ to agree to rewrite history so they'd never been together or something equally insulting. I've seen bad reset switches, but Jeez... As for Asimov, I wanted more Foundation stories but I wanted them to be a continuation of the galaxy's historical development, and instead he gave us... well, I won't spoil it for people who are considering reading them, but it really wasn't what I was looking for. |
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| SladeJack | Jul 11 2008, 11:17 AM Post #18 |
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The Grand SladeJack
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"If that's the case, I don't understand why Goldfarb complains about Britain not being recognized...with ICBMs and nukes, they should have been a full-fledged independent 'not-empire,' especially considering the conditions the human powers were in at the time of the original peace." Japan got full recognition when it added ICBMs to its nukes, so absolutely no reason the UK shouldn't've had it as well. Unless maybe the fact that they kept getting bitched around by the Nazis led Atvar to conclude they weren't really a sovereign government controlling its own country? At any rate, the UK got the shitty end of the stick in the second half of the series, and it didn't make any sense, either. "As for Asimov, I wanted more Foundation stories but I wanted them to be a continuation of the galaxy's historical development, and instead he gave us... well, I won't spoil it for people who are considering reading them, but it really wasn't what I was looking for." Yeah, that seems to have been a fairly common conclusion. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
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| Makkabee | Jul 11 2008, 05:55 PM Post #19 |
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Count
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"Flying rockets" doesn't necessarily mean ICBMs. Britain might only have short or intermediate range weapons, and can maybe threaten Lizard bases in Spain but not much else. Or did the text specify long range weapons? It's been so long since I've read any Colonization books that I genuinely don't recall. |
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| MapleLeafs4Ever | Jul 11 2008, 10:49 PM Post #20 |
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Landowner
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From "flying rockets" in the above quote, my first reaction was something more along the lines of a rocket powered V-1 rather than a ballistic missile. The V-1 being more akin to a cruise missile than an ICBM. |
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| SladeJack | Jul 11 2008, 11:58 PM Post #21 |
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The Grand SladeJack
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Yeah, "flying rockets" is pretty vague, isn't it. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
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| Makkabee | Jul 12 2008, 10:37 AM Post #22 |
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Count
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To say the least. I still need to read Homeward Bound, though the reviews have been mixed enough that I'll only do so if I can find it in a library or a really cheap copy in a used bookshop. |
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| SladeJack | Jul 12 2008, 11:13 AM Post #23 |
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The Grand SladeJack
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I've been hard on it but it wasn't entirely irredeemable. The pulp-ish introduction to various aspects of the Lizards' home culture is fun, and the full-circle feeling of watching the Lizards realize they've decisively fallen behind another species in terms of technology is intriguing. We finally get some Rabotev and Hallessi characters, not that that's all that exciting. Yeager becomes the most important character. I wasn't too happy with that, I don't like him--not because of the Indianapolis thing, but because he's just not that interesting despite the fact that he has interesting roles laid at his feet. But he gets the chance to defend his actions in terms that his fiercest critics can, or at least should be able to, understand. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
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| Morrell | Jul 16 2008, 09:03 PM Post #24 |
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Serf
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As far as the "rockets" goes, I would think Britain would have ICBMs at this point. Considering how buddy buddy the Reich and Britain are, and considering the fact that Britain was already getting heavy water from the Germans at the end of the war, I couldn't see them not sharing ICBM technology. And though they fell behind, Britain was still a leader in jet engines, radar, electronics, etc. at that point, even without the Empire. Besides, this is all beside the point. The requirement was having a nuke. Britain qualifies. That should be the end of the story. Its relationship with the Reich should make no difference...its mentioned in Colonization that Japan is becoming increasingly dependent on the US, yet it is still recognized. This inconsistency has always bothered me. |
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| SladeJack | Jul 16 2008, 11:07 PM Post #25 |
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The Grand SladeJack
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Britain being allied with Germany doesn't mean the Germans would give them all their toys--not hardly. They liked their allies to rely on their protection. But it is indeed bothersome that Japan got better treatment than its fellow island ex-imperial center, especially since Britain hit all the benchmarks that gave Japan recognition sooner. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
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| Morrell | Jul 17 2008, 10:31 AM Post #26 |
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Even if the Reich didn't share, Britain had its first ICBM-type missile in 1955 with the Blue Streak, which it tested in Australia. The only reason they canceled it was that they began sharing with the US, which was more cost effective. I know the Brits won't have as many resources this time around, but they certainly have the technology, especially considering the huge amount of Lizardly knowledge they'd have from the invasion and all the prisoners. And considering the Race and Britain's earthly neighbors, I'd say it was probably a top priority to develop nuke-carrying rockets. And as I said before, all this should be moot anyway...once Britain got a nuke, it should have had recognition. End of story. A lot of the British scientists working on their A-bomb ended up with the Manhattan Project because we had more resources and room, with the expectation we'd share. Despite the shortages of the post-war period, it doesn't cost anything to share the knowledge of how to build one, and with us having already done it, I can't see the British not having independent nuclear capabilities by 1950 at the VERY latest. |
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| Custer | Jul 17 2008, 12:01 PM Post #27 |
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Resident Kamikaze Warrior
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But why would the US want to share with the UK their nuclear secrets in the first place ITTL? |
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| SladeJack | Jul 17 2008, 03:24 PM Post #28 |
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The Grand SladeJack
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Because the more nuclear powers there were on Earth, the more cautious the Race had to be. Also, the US looks out and sees bombs in the hands of Hitler, Stalin, and Atvar. Wouldn't you feel a little better if you saw what was then still a real ally in that club, as opposed to a cobelligerent of necessity? They should indeed have had full recognition whenever they went nuclear on their own. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
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| Custer | Jul 17 2008, 03:32 PM Post #29 |
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Resident Kamikaze Warrior
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Yes but weren't the Yanks thinking how the British had turned into little tin Reichsfuehrers in orbit around Berlin's wishes, or was that just David Goldfarb's impression? |
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| SladeJack | Jul 17 2008, 03:57 PM Post #30 |
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The Grand SladeJack
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Auerbach said as much at one point. However, we don't know when that happened, and my guess is the US helped the Brits go nuclear right away, though we don't know that either. |
| When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well. | |
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