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The Videssos Cycle
Topic Started: Jul 2 2008, 11:42 AM (603 Views)
Makkabee
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Not strictly alternate history, though it does borrow events from OTL as heavily as some of HT's alternate history stories do. Still, I've been looking over it again and I think it merits discussion.

One thing that just struck me is that there is no mention of slavery that I can recall in it. Serfdom, yes, but not slavery. I wonder if the religion in the story forbids it, since it was such an integral part of the pre-industrial mediterranean civilization from which so much of the background of the story is drawn.

Another is that HT is really bad about keeping his military terms and ranks straight. He describes the Roman force in the book as "three cohorts" in the begining, then uses the word "maniple" the rest of the time. Maniples were made of two centuries each, cohorts of either 6 or 10 (I need to look that up). Once the cohort was introduced as a regular formation the maniple was abandoned. He also refers to the senior Romans as "centurions" but assigns them command of cohorts/maniples when that's a job for the next higher rank, the "pilus" (the pilus primus commanded the first cohort of a legion, and a pilus prior commanded each other cohort). It kind of irks me that he can't keep this stuff straight.
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SladeJack
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"One thing that just struck me is that there is no mention of slavery that I can recall in it. Serfdom, yes, but not slavery."

Does he use serfdom as a stand-in for slavery like he did in the Magic Civil War?

"Another is that HT is really bad about keeping his military terms and ranks straight."

Surely you jest.

"Maniples were made of two centuries each, cohorts of either 6 or 10 (I need to look that up). Once the cohort was introduced as a regular formation the maniple was abandoned."

Maybe they reorganized offstage since they couldn't count on reinforcements from their world?
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The Guy from Fiji
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Makkabee
Jul 2 2008, 11:42 AM
Another is that HT is really bad about keeping his military terms and ranks straight.  He describes the Roman force in the book as "three cohorts" in the begining, then uses the word "maniple" the rest of the time.  Maniples were made of two centuries each, cohorts of either 6 or 10 (I need to look that up).  Once the cohort was introduced as a regular formation the maniple was abandoned.  He also refers to the senior Romans as "centurions" but assigns them command of cohorts/maniples when that's a job for the next higher rank, the "pilus" (the pilus primus commanded the first cohort of a legion, and a pilus prior commanded each other cohort).  It kind of irks me that he can't keep this stuff straight.

So, how much of a difference are we talking in actual number of men?
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Custer
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Makkabee
Jul 2 2008, 12:42 PM
Another is that HT is really bad about keeping his military terms and ranks straight. He describes the Roman force in the book as "three cohorts" in the begining, then uses the word "maniple" the rest of the time. Maniples were made of two centuries each, cohorts of either 6 or 10 (I need to look that up). Once the cohort was introduced as a regular formation the maniple was abandoned. He also refers to the senior Romans as "centurions" but assigns them command of cohorts/maniples when that's a job for the next higher rank, the "pilus" (the pilus primus commanded the first cohort of a legion, and a pilus prior commanded each other cohort). It kind of irks me that he can't keep this stuff straight.

As SJ suggested, perhaps they were making some frank-decision making because of the permanence of their "transfer"? IIRC, some of the soldiers from the legion were left behind in the Roman world. Or am I thinking of people left behind when Grantsville moved in 1632?

I need to read the rest of the Cycle.
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SladeJack
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"So, how much of a difference are we talking in actual number of men?"

Since the constituent unit is calld a CENTURY, would you care to retract the question before mockery ensues?
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Makkabee
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A centuria (English: century) was originally composed of 100 men, but by the late republic it had been reduced to 80. I think it might have been further reduced to 60 at some point. According to wikipedia a cohort consisted of 6 centuries and there were 10 cohorts in a legion, with the first cohort being extra large.

The Roman force, 3 cohorts plus a detachment of auxiliaries, was about 1500 strong at the begining of the book. Unless the force had already been thinned considerably by casualties from Caesar's campaigns, that means three ordinary sized cohorts.

It doesn't really make sense for them to go back to using maniples because they weren't trained in that -- the maniple had been abandoned for the cohort when Marius reformed the army, and the oldest of the Roman veterans joined up towards the end of Marius's career.

It's just flat out wrong that the Roman force never seems to have more than two centurions at any given time when they should have 18.
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SladeJack
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It seems as wrong as the TL-191 US Army only having two people who are remotely capable of commanding army groups, and one of them sucking at it. Give the man points for consistency.

I suspected that centuries were sub-100 by this point so there was a bit of a risk involved in my smartassery but I figured it was worth it.
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Makkabee
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It was still chuckle-worthy.
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SladeJack
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Legally speaking, that's all I need to move forward.
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Makkabee
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Problems aside though, I did enjoy the Videssos books.

Another question: if Turtledove were to do another series set in that world, what sort of story would you like to see? Something further in the past, such as the Videssian conquest of the westlands, the origins of the wars with Makuran, or the founding of the empire? Something in the future, set after the end of the original Videssos tetralogy? Something that fills in more of the gaps in the 800 years covered by the novels so far (or 1100 if you count the short stories too)? Something set in that world but outside the borders of Videssos?

So toss out time periods and places you'd like to see covered and story lines you'd like to see if you have anything in particular in mind.
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Custer
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Short stories on theological matters (without having Rhavas in them), the nastier palace coups and intrigues, maybe one on the rise of the Makuran empire before the Yezda came.
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TR1
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Custer
Jul 3 2008, 04:38 PM
Short stories on theological matters (without having Rhavas in them), the nastier palace coups and intrigues, maybe one on the rise of the Makuran empire before the Yezda came.

See "The Seventh Chapter" for a fairly entertaining theological short story.

(Hey, I got to participate in this thread, even without reading the major series. Yay for me.)
"Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman
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SladeJack
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I've never read any of it and I'm participating.

One thing I don't understand, if I walk into a major bookstore and visit their Turtledove section, I'd be much, much likelier to find a given 191, Derlavai, or even World War book than a given Videssos book, though that's his longest series. What's up with that.
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TR1
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That probably means that the more recent series (191 especially) did better overall sales than did the Videssos books.

That's just a guess of course--I have no evidence, or even Evidence to back that up.
"Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman
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Custer
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I've been to a couple bookstores, both of them being Barnes and Noble, where there were three Videssos volumes there - The Misplaced Legion, Bridge of the Separator, and The Tale of Krispos (which is actually three books in one). That was the most Videssos books I've seen in one brick and mortar location.
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