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MWIH Spoilers; Spoiler thread
Topic Started: Jul 23 2008, 09:12 AM (1,227 Views)
TR1
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The book ends in January, 1948, so we don't know that is doesn't exist. At least one character speaks of moving to Palestine, so it probably will.
"Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman
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SladeJack
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Evidence!

The Brits are apparently lining up to say "No way in Hell."

Create a Jewish state, let them raise a military, turn 'em loose in Germany and watch how fast the Heydrichites howl for mercy. I've always thought that would work in Iraq too.
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TR1
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Quote:
 
The Brits are apparently lining up to say "No way in Hell."


I suspect that reflects OTL Britain's panic over the situation rather than a butterfly from Heydrich surviving.

I have no Evidence beyond the fact that the rest of the world doesn't appear to have changed by the end of the book.
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SladeJack
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It should--less competition (though still too damned much) between the winners should have led them to shape the new world differently.
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TR1
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As I think back over the book, I still like it, but I think HT's decision to harken to Iraq was not a good one. It's far better to think of it purely for the question it tries to answer, and set aside present events as much as possible (difficult, as HT twees up the book with references to those events).

In the context of "What if there was a German resistence movement" alone, it becomes fairly plausible. Yes, the US bails as fast as possible, but that actually scans reasonably well with the history of the country. It's one previous excursion in the European affairs, WWI, had it on the winning side, but ultimately accomplished nothing. Now events seem to be going the same way, but this time the US has the atom bomb, and that will keep the Nazis and the USSR in line. Maybe it should have taken more than 3 years for that to happen, maybe not.

But when read as HT's (evident) plea to stick it out in Iraq, then the book kinda fails. There are far too many obvious differences between the two conflicts that the argument seems almost juvenile and hysterical.

"Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman
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SladeJack
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Not as many differences as there would be if HT hadn't tweed it up so much. That wasn't just affecting the style, it was affecting the substance.

I thought his plea was off-base but not unbelievably so. There are differences but there are samenesses too.
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MapleLeafs4Ever
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I've been going over changes and new articles in the Turtlewiki and see that TR did an extensive sub on Germany in MWIH (4,000+ words). In it he says that the US is withdrawing from Germany at the end of the book. Any indication that the USSR is moving into the American sector? Even with the German resistance, I would think they would but does HT hint at it at all?
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Jake Featherston
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I finished the book about an hour or so ago. I thought it was good. The way the Werewolves fought was brutal as hell. HT's style of writing has always appealed to me. It has a sort of "old man telling children in the living room" kind of feel to it (a very perverted old man, but you get what I'm talking about). The cigarette references were not as prevalent here than say The Grapple, but do I really need to know every time someone lights up? Oh well.

The ending was very bleak, especially the last line, doesn't mean I disliked it.

One gripe: Diana McGraw.

Another gripe: HT, as well as SM Stirling, can really annoy me with certain things. For example: "WE WANT TO GO HOME! WE WANT TO GO HOME! WE WANT TO GO HOME! WE WANT TO GO HOME!.................." Almost as annoying as Viscount Valnu.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
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SladeJack
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The NKVD guy bitches about how the US is running away from a mess and not letting the Soviets clean it up. The US is leaving behind a few forces apparently to repel a Soviet entry, and any number of characters comment on how the US will defend West Germany should the Soviets enter.
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Trebuchet
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While Turtledove's writing style has rebounded, his general plotting here was hamhanded. The newsreels of captured soldiers have already been covered, as well as the huge drop in casualties, but those aren't the only holes in the story. Forcing Iraq parallels badly hurt the story, and was unneccessary.

The US and UK were off-the-charts bad at handling the Werewolves here, too. I mean, seriously. If you're going to broadly parallel the Iraq conflict, Turtledove, at least get the good guys right - they learned fast. In the end, they learned too much for the other side, as July's casualties could be counted on one hand.
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SladeJack
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"The US and UK were off-the-charts bad at handling the Werewolves here, too. I mean, seriously. If you're going to broadly parallel the Iraq conflict, Turtledove, at least get the good guys right - they learned fast. In the end, they learned too much for the other side, as July's casualties could be counted on one hand."

Yeah, put a brain somewhere in the Anglosphere. I mean it's not like the OSS and MI5 had recently gotten tons of experience in the operations of asymmetrical warfare. And it's not like Yugoslavia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands et cetera aren't jam-packed with veterans of resistance campaigns who would be falling all over themselves to lend a hand if it looked like the Nazis might realistically make a comeback. Hell, those guys chipped in for the OTL occupation, it's not like the major Allies wouldn't invite them in when the task got much harder, nor is it like they wouldn't have joined if asked. Even Canada should have been willing to contribute.

However I wonder if HT had in mind "Let's show how bad things would have become if people had listened to the anti-war crowd before we learned our lessons." If all he wanted to do was parallel Iraq, he wouldn't've had Congress cut off funding.

There's talk of the US and UK swearing to bomb the USSR if it tries to invade West Germany. I wonder if they'll change their tune when the Nazis take over again. Given HT's past unwillingness to leave stories off with the NSDAP in the ascendancy (pulling the Race-German War of 1965 out of his ass, turning the ItPoME short story into the first chapter of a de-Nazifying novel that didn't serve any other clear purpose) I wonder if he'll feel compelled to deal with that in a sequel.

The "By God I will hammer this round peg into this square hole!" really detracted from the story, that's for sure.
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TR1
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* Freedom, how meta-twee!  :lol:

Playing around in this thread since I'm also playing around in the turtlewiki.

Even MORE meta-

The lengthy discussion a couple of characters have about what if FDR had been impeaced early in the war, and how Henry Wallace would have been POTUS.

I guess "News From the Front" (the short story about this very plotline) was more of a test-drive for MWtIH than HT was wanting to admit.
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SladeJack
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Maybe the idea there was to make his sympathies even more obvious. He was putting both pro and anti arguments into his characters' heads, maybe he was afraid people wouldn't realize he was on the pro side.

His politicians sure were shitty people, all of them. That's a little unusual for him--he usually throws in at least one or two statesmen among the jumped-up wardheelers. Maybe he was commenting on the caliber of political leadership in the current war too. Maybe, hell--He was.
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TR1
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SladeJack
Aug 22 2008, 02:51 PM
Maybe the idea there was to make his sympathies even more obvious. He was putting both pro and anti arguments into his characters' heads, maybe he was afraid people wouldn't realize he was on the pro side.


The idea where? The short story or the meta reference?

Quote:
 
His politicians sure were shitty people, all of them.  That's a little unusual for him--he usually throws in at least one or two statesmen among the jumped-up wardheelers.  Maybe he was commenting on the caliber of political leadership in the current war too.  Maybe, hell--He was.


He only had the one political POV, Jerry Duncan. Who wasn't exactly great but I wouldn't call him a shitty person.

Changing subject--the character Diana McGraw has the fling with, Marvin--was he "someone"? If so, I missed the reference.
"Nobody's gay for Moleman." - Hans Moleman
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SladeJack
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"The idea where? The short story or the meta reference?"

Maybe both?

And that's not necessarily a meta reference. After all, had Roosevelt been impeached in his third term Wallace would indeed have become President. That much is indisputable historical fact. Were I more cynical I might call it impeachment insurance.

"He only had the one political POV, Jerry Duncan. Who wasn't exactly great but I wouldn't call him a shitty person."

No? He just sat around obsessing about how evil Democrats were all the damned time. That seemed his only motive for ever doing anything. Ditto Taft, who looked so damn good in 191. And Rayburn and Truman just sat around obsessing about how evil Republicans were all the damned time. Joe Martin was the best of the bunch, I suppose. At least he tried to keep the debate civil.

"Changing subject--the character Diana McGraw has the fling with, Marvin--was he 'someone'? If so, I missed the reference."

Not that I've been able to find or place.
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