Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Alternate History Lounge. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
TL-191 Question
Topic Started: Jul 30 2008, 12:16 AM (811 Views)
Mr Nelg
Member Avatar
Lord of the Under Pants
[ *  * ]
Over at wiki, I was having a brows around the joint, when I found myself reading up on India. The section there comments on the Japanese preparing for invasion, but in "SA:IATD" they're preparing for an invasion of Siberia, the text states that Japanese are prepared to take them by force.

How can this be? Japan doesn’t have the manpower to pull both invasions off, not while they're bogged down in China, and holding down the Philippians, Indo-China and the Dutch East Indies. Plus I can't seem to find any reference to an actual invasion of India. They only speculate that the British can at least hold India.
Let's see you do that kung-fu crap after I disintergrate your legs...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
There was no invasion of India in the books, only speculation that Japan might make a move on it.

I think if the Japanese try at this point the British will go nuclear on them. I doubt they'd try it, but then again I didn't think they'd go after Hawaii if the US wasn't threatening their position in Asia. If they do overextend like that it's past time they take a real pummelling for it. They've been having it too easy way too long.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr Nelg
Member Avatar
Lord of the Under Pants
[ *  * ]
Quote:
 
There was no invasion of India in the books, only speculation that Japan might make a move on it.


Ummm... That's what I said.

UPDATE: A quick check over at wiki. It's been changed.

Wow, somebody over there moves fast. :huh:
Let's see you do that kung-fu crap after I disintergrate your legs...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
"How can this be? Japan doesn’t have the manpower to pull both invasions off, not while they're bogged down in China, and holding down the Philippians, Indo-China and the Dutch East Indies."

You wouldn't think so but Japan's post-GWI activities were none too well-grounded in reality, were they. As far as I can figure something in this timeline made the
Chinese, Filipinos (not Philippians, as in natives of Philippi and people to whom St Paul addressed an epistle :P) Vietnamese, Laotians, Khmers, Indonesians, Koreans, Malays, Burmese (all of whom you've forgotten, tsk tsk tsk) and Manchus (I guess they would fall under Chinese) decide they don't mind having the Japanese around, freeing up their armies for bigger and better things. Maybe they actually have enlightened colonial policies toward their Asian subjects in this timeline--it's possible. The only line at all pertaining to their Asian policies I can think of is the one referring to aerial attacks on China, but I got the impression that had more to do with conquering the country than administering it.

With the sad state Russia's in, invading Siberia could probably be done pretty cheaply. A lot of terrain that needs covering (obviously) but there aren't many people against whom to secure it. And the Asiatic armies probably wound up in Europe, as in OTL--things got even more desperate for this Russia than they did for the real one.

"I think if the Japanese try at this point the British will go nuclear on them. I doubt they'd try it, but then again I didn't think they'd go after Hawaii if the US wasn't threatening their position in Asia."

Prior to IatD I was looking for a gradual, subtle, highly unofficial (at least until the war was resolved) Anglo-American alliance in the Pacific Rim. The fact that they provided invaluable assistance to the Snake's successful nuclear program is a damned big hedge to that, though.

They did take a whack at Hawaii but on closer examination decided it wasn't worth it right before they put themselves on the hook for real casualties.

"If they do overextend like that it's past time they take a real pummelling for it. They've been having it too easy way too long."

And how! All their neighbors' policies toward them, and especially the US's, have been asinine in the extreme. The fact that the US is their neighbor at all speaks volumes as to how out of hand that's gotten.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MapleLeafs4Ever
Landowner
[ *  *  *  * ]
On pages 79 & 80 of The Grapple, the crew of the Townsend discover that the Japanese have abandoned Midway. Enos, Dalby and Gustafson speculate on what Japan will do next. Dalby laughs and says "Only way England's stayed in the Far East as long as she has is that Japan's let her. If Japan doesn't want her around any more . . . Well, she may hang on to India-" From this Jack had concluded Japan invaded India. However, nowhere else in the book or in IatD is there any mention of an actual invasion. Malaya yes. Singapore yes. India no.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Japan didn't want her around any more. Maybe she held on to India--but she had to fight for it.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MapleLeafs4Ever
Landowner
[ *  *  *  * ]
SladeJack
Jul 30 2008, 10:38 PM
Japan didn't want her around any more. Maybe she held on to India--but she had to fight for it.

No mention of any fighting in India in the subsequent 1100+ pages.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
No mention of a lot of things, especially in Asia.

We're content assuming they're in China and we have much less to support that assumption.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
No, we have much more to support that assumption -- there was direct mention of Japanese fighting in China. All we got about India was speculation that Japan might attack there, never confirmation of the sort we got about China.

It follows the twisted logic of the series that Japan would go after the British in India, but we've seen the series violate its own logic plenty of times.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
There was a mention of a Japanese air raid in China a bajillion pages ago. It's possible China went down not at all long after that, and it's even possible there was no war at all--I can think of a few instances of air raids not turning into general conflicts.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
One mention of one Japanese military action in China is still infinitely more than the mentions of military action in India.

There's also the matter of logic. If Japan was so much less involved in China and not involved in India at all (whether or not they would be later) how come they committed so much less to the Pacific war with the US? Only sending one or 2 carriers at a time against the US navy when OTL they often committed four or even six... their resources HAD to be going somewhere.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
"One mention of one Japanese military action in China is still infinitely more than the mentions of military action in India."

But we don't know whether it was still ongoing at the time. Hell, for all we know Pu Yi as Emperor requested Japanese help in strafing KMT Headquarters, and with them out of the way the two emperors became fast friends.

"There's also the matter of logic."

You're applying logic to the holes in this story? Oy.

My guess is HT artificially handicapped the Japanese and kept them from using their full force so he could paint them as a secondary front.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
SladeJack
Jul 31 2008, 10:46 AM
"One mention of one Japanese military action in China is still infinitely more than the mentions of military action in India."

But we don't know whether it was still ongoing at the time. Hell, for all we know Pu Yi as Emperor requested Japanese help in strafing KMT Headquarters, and with them out of the way the two emperors became fast friends.

Even if that were true the Japanese would have troops tied down propping up the Chinese imperial government like the French in Mexico or the US in South Viet Nam.

I really wouldn't bet on that though-- the Chinese traditionally have a pretty strong antipathy towards foreign troops, particularly foreign troops who behave the way the Japanese do -- remember the horror stories about Manilla?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SladeJack
The Grand SladeJack
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I lived in Korea for a year. I'm well versed in early twentieth century Japanese misbehavior.

I always wanted to join the former comfort women in their weekly protest outside the Japanese embassy but I was never free on Wednesdays at noon.
When you wipe your ass, make sure you wipe it really well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Makkabee
Count
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
So you should be as certain of local hostility to Japanese expansionism as any of us.

I had a professor whose parents ran away from home in China to join the resistance to the Japanese in the 1930s. My attitudes towards the reactions of subject peoples are largely colored by her family experiences. I have a hard time believing that people would behave any differently towards the Japanese in TL-191 when nationalist resistance to invaders is such a strong theme throughout the rest of the world unless the Japanese behaved in an unusual way to win over their subject peoples, and the only mention of Japanese behavior in conquered territory was of their brutality in the Phillipines, so I can't think of any reason to think that they get a free pass while the rest of the world doesn't and several things in text that imply that they don't.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Alternate History Media · Next Topic »
Add Reply