Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Abydos Quest. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Races and such
Topic Started: Jul 31 2008, 03:33 PM (814 Views)
Dark Wraith
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
Wingless,Jul 31 2008
06:34 PM
Damn. I didn't mean to start a huge debate about race. XD

Yeah, now you've done it, Anni. :lol:
[align=center]Posted Image
(Click for complete character list)

[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Tchar'zanek
Member Avatar
Serf
[ * ]
Dark Wraith,Jul 31 2008
10:21 PM
Any fuss over the demography of the forum really won't affect how people play their characters or what types of races they chose to play. Trust me. On Arda, the place was over-run with demons, angels, half-demons, half-angels, half-dragons, and some especially strange mixes that brought up logistical questions that no one cared to delve into. Yet, according to the big, official race list, these were not supposed to be prevalent races; the "normal" race was humans. People will usually play characters that are part of a minority because rarity is an attractive quality in a character.

This isn't Arda, last time I checked. You guys left that forum behind when you migrated here, so it'll be different. As far as demography not affecting racial choices, it would if certain races are off limits to players. Races like Vampires, Demons, Angels, Shades and stuff of this nature should not be a possible choice, as it undermines the whole point of their powers. If they're playable, and therefore common, then it negates any kind of mystical powers or meanings they may have as a group.

In your own original fiction, normal is whatever you determine it to be. In a world like this, where you're collaborating with other people, normal is what everyone agrees upon. You can't just arbitrarily say that humans are different just because you want to play a human character with a certain appearance. That would ruin other peoples characters who have themselves set as humans with a more conventional and normal appearance.

As for your point on Angels and Demons, I'm trying to say that they should be rare, for the aforementioned reasons. If the dimensions are close (*), then it takes away all meaning that they could potentially retain. Make them rare and occuring rarely and you gain an interesting device that can be used to make something turn very spiritual or supernatural in the context of a story.

Look, I'm not trying to say people can only play certain races. What i'm trying to say is have certain races be the most common and most played, with the rarer races played sparingly, if at all. These rarer races would be the stranger fantasy races (Illithids, Azer, Bugbears, Dragonkin, etc.). This I'm less of a stickler for when compared to demons, and will gladly play alongside something like a Satyr just to see the character interaction that could go there. However, seeing that Satyr, and having his race described as rare, then running into 3 along the same journey kind of negates the whole 'rare' thing.

The main point I'm trying to make is that if everyone is unique, nobody is. If everybody is trying to be unusual and strange, then eventually, people will overlap and become very similar.

I find it funny that most of the people who are against this idea are those who have the strange and celestial characters.

(*) I should make it clear now that I'm against extra-dimensions at all. In the real world, dimensions are a rather new concept, in a medievals ettign they never would have even thought of it.

TL:DR - I think Races should be standardized, and supernatural beings should be banned as PCs.

EDIT: Wingless, if you hadn't started a thread like this, I'm sure somebody else would have. Things like this need to be discussed.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Wingless
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
Uh, I dun really want to get involved. But if you take supernatural beings out of the RP, then you've got no fantasy anymore. Real people in a magical world who are unable to take advantage of this magic is stupid. It's like being in a room filled with cake and not being allowed to eat it. >>
Characters
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Dark Wraith
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
Wow, banning people from playing certain races? Completely? Talk about stifling creative freedom. That seems very extreme. :\
[align=center]Posted Image
(Click for complete character list)

[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Kedros
Member Avatar
Bard
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
*rolls up his news-paper and starts whacking*
T'Char: you can think what-ever you want.
It's a free world: and this is a free-form writing forum.
Check the banner at the top if you need a reminder. Anyone can write what-ever they want, no matter how mundane, or outrageous.

Everyone cool it before I whip some sense into the lot of you!

Remember, it's about writing, bloody hell!
User your head, stop worrying about rules and guidelines, and write what reads beautifully!
If it's a pleasure to read, then it's good!
All other politics or complications can go to hell!
[align=center]
Posted Image
Links:
Characters

Open Topics
Misplaced Hope in a Place Unlooked For Is Perhaps Not Misplaced
Featuring Ostler, Open but Pls PM

Means and Ends of Oath-Keepers
Featuring Rilangren, Open but Pls PM

Ploughshears to Axes
Featuring Ferdibrand Rumble, Open but Pls PM

The Windblown Seed
Featuring Curin & Riele


Archive of Old Characters No Longer In Use
[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Wingless
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
Woo! Now gimmie mah cake! /no more spam
Characters
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Cathartic
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
God, why do I have to be such a slow typer? If you've read Eluthaun's post above, you don't have to bother reading this, because I'm making the same point.

Quote:
 
Limitations to lore forces a player to come up with better ways to create characters, rather than merely splashing the same tired bull on, over, and over, and over. I can think over about 2 dozen demons, half-demons and angels off the bat, I can only list 3 Dwarves who were impressive.


Lord bejesus, I thought Abydos already filtered the players most likely to come up with such characters through the application forum? Anyhow, to me it would seem that the creativity you seem to inspire is the same creativity our lawyers lose to get around the law, but more on that below.

More generally, I agree with Aloric that a cliché character does not necessarily make for a cliché storyline.

Quote:
 
If you think that this is a major issue, you've obviously never seen one. Also, whether or not Riele wants to *be* an admin or not isn't in question. She is one, and the responsibility falls to her, since she doesn't have moderators.


Yes, obviously I've never seen a major issue (thank God for that), simply because I think that the creator of this forum might not think the OOC hassle of having an official races list overly conducive to the board's purpose. But I'll leave the matter for Rièle herself to answer and stripe it off my personal list.

Quote:
 
Alright, well, personally, I think that all of the "Original and Refreshing" races I have seen unveiled so far are the same trite crap you can find canned up in your average writer.


Generalizing does not make for an effective argument, in my eyes. Even if what you say is true, those average writers obviously enjoy writing their 'same trite crap', and as stated above, cliché characters do not make for cliché stories.

Quote:
 
Why? Because they're *demons*, denizens of a hellish plane that is nowhere near the same as ours. To have them be normal to our plane would cheapen their meaning and abilities. Elves and Dwarves are also commonly less numerous than humans, as they're considered "Older" races (normally).


Really? My demon was born in a field full of magical flowers in Rith. Or through a Nerandorian disease, granting normal humans demonic attributes. What I mean is, you seem to put Demons in a rather narrow category. However you want to spin your words, categorizing limits creativity, but posts above me have pointed that out clearly enough.

Quote:
 
That's just it though, there is no demographic. What we need is some sort of official ruling on a general number of races or the common amounts of different races present in this world. A list like this would allow people to see the more common races and make races inside that boundary, forcing people to play their characters differently from others, instead of making the actual character unique (I hope you get what I mean by this). It also doesn't mean you necessarily HAVE to make a character from the lsit of races, you could be able to PM Riele or somebody else who she appoints to "Racial Moderator" (Potential development which probably won't happen) to see if a character race would be ok, maybe even have it added to the list if you plan on making a kingdom or city or something.


People do not create characters within boundaries. In fact, they (and I'm one of them) love to touch the boundaries, and then leap over them in an effort to be as un-Mary-Sueish as possible.

I do wholeheartedly agree that people should not try to make their character sheet, but their stories unique. I just do not think that a set races list would help any in achieving that goal - it's like saying, "yeah, we want you to be creative, just don't do this... and this... and that..." etcetera

Also, I don't get why you're so eager to get a list when people can still create characters that don't conform to the boundaries it sets. Also, how could one possibly have clear criteria as to what new races would be accepted? Apart from a race full of blond-spiky-haired, teal-eyed, tail-growing musculars called Go-koos, I don't see much being refused there.

Quote:
 
As said before, somebody could be appointed to the compilation of the list. If Riele wants to write over administrate, then delegate it somebody else. The beauty of being a leader is that you can get others to do your work for you.


Considering she has expressed clearly enough that she wants to keep Abydos a small, tight community, I am unsure whether she would jump on the opportunity to delegate part of its OOC mechanics to others. But again, I'm in no way speaking for her, and I admit that I could be readily wrong about this, so point taken until that matter is cleared up.

Quote:
 
I'm going to have to disagree with you about constraints limiting creativity. They do, but it's the kind of creativity that leads to cliche'd characters and Mary Sues. Personally, I'd rather have something that keeps characters mundane to make people differentiate themselves through actual characters rather than through races and crazy appearances.


Creativity that leads to clichés? I'm not sure why we're all praising the 'as much creativity as possible' mindset if that were true. As I stated before, the creation of Mary Sue characters is not stymied in the slightest by the implementation of a set races list. I mean, how would it? You can be damn sure Angels and Demons will be on the list, complete with hybrid subsections, and you can be damn sure people will still create them if they feel like it.

It's all in the people. And from what I've seen here at Abydos, very, very few seem likely to be making the characters you're trying to lay to waste with this list idea. In fact, I deem myself one of the most likeliest to do so (Fallen Angels ftfw). And again, that doesn't mean my stories will not be enjoyable to read.

Quote:
 
The main point I'm trying to make is that if everyone is unique, nobody is. If everybody is trying to be unusual and strange, then eventually, people will overlap and become very similar.


I suppose it's here where I completely disagree with you, which is why I picked it out from your last post (which was put up while I was typing my reply). Character sheets do not define the stories made by the writers that created them. If everyone wants to be unique, let them. If the stories are enjoyable, then who cares whether they were played out by a bunch of 'mundane' humans or a conglomerate of Half-Angels, sedated tieflings, half a halfling and a talking hamburger?
[align=center]Posted Image[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Aloric
Member Avatar
Serf
[ * ]
Riele has outlined nothing else about her world. Why should races be outlined and forbidden then? This is free-form. We're all contributing to a larger world, but if it's not canon, you don't have to accept it. You choose who you invite into your roleplays. If the half-mutant fallen angel disrupts your continuity, don't invite it.

Everyone here has been accepted because they are mature and skilled writers. Let that skill and maturity go where it wants to.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Tchar'zanek
Member Avatar
Serf
[ * ]
Wingless,Jul 31 2008
10:55 PM
Uh, I dun really want to get involved. But if you take supernatural beings out of the RP, then you've got no fantasy anymore. Real people in a magical world who are unable to take advantage of this magic is stupid. It's like being in a room filled with cake and not being allowed to eat it. >>

Common Supernatural races =/= Fantasy

Look at Tolkien's world of Middle Earth. As far as I know, the only supernatural beings were those under the guidance of the Valar, and maybe Sauron (Don't think in terms of Lord of the Rings for this analogy, think in terms of your average citizen). They were FAR from common, and one was lucky to run into one in their lifetime, let alone several. All I'm trying to get across is that Demons, Celestials, Infernals, or whatever else you can think of that comes from another plane or has it's origins from some sort of hell or something, should not be in as a playable nor a common race. Which means that it should not be playable.


EDITS:

Cathartic
 
Lord bejesus, I thought Abydos already filtered the players most likely to come up with such characters through the application forum? Anyhow, to me it would seem that the creativity you seem to inspire is the same creativity our lawyers lose to get around the law, but more on that below.


When was the last time you checked through some of the characters posted?

To Eluthaun, we're discussing something here. I'm not in an authoritative position, so this is just idle debate. The only way you can get something done is by discussing it or doing it yourself. I can't do the latter, so I'm trying to talk about it rationally.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Kedros
Member Avatar
Bard
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
T'Char:
let me sing something into your head.

Abydos is not about PLAYABLE

this is about writing! And anything you want is WRITEABLE because you can write whatever you want. Okay my sweetie darling?
[align=center]
Posted Image
Links:
Characters

Open Topics
Misplaced Hope in a Place Unlooked For Is Perhaps Not Misplaced
Featuring Ostler, Open but Pls PM

Means and Ends of Oath-Keepers
Featuring Rilangren, Open but Pls PM

Ploughshears to Axes
Featuring Ferdibrand Rumble, Open but Pls PM

The Windblown Seed
Featuring Curin & Riele


Archive of Old Characters No Longer In Use
[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Dark Wraith
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
Tchar'zanek,Jul 31 2008
07:03 PM
All I'm trying to get across is that Demons, Celestials, Infernals, or whatever else you can think of that comes from another plane or has it's origins from some sort of hell or something, should not be in as a playable nor a common race. Which means that it should not be playable.

I entirely disagree. This idea seems to be in the opposite of the free and creative atmosphere that this board seems to have. Where's the freedom in being barred from hundreds of races that could spawn interesting characters? This kind of extreme hold over the writer's free reign is uncalled for, seeing as how we're all reasonable people who are only here in the interest of good literature.

EDIT: And, as Eluthaun pointed out, now we're back to treating this like a game rather than a free and open forum for collaborative writing.
[align=center]Posted Image
(Click for complete character list)

[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Tchar'zanek
Member Avatar
Serf
[ * ]
Eluthaun,Jul 31 2008
11:06 PM
this is about writing! And anything you want is WRITEABLE because you can write whatever you want. Okay my sweetie darling?


It's written in a consistent world that we all have to deal with. This discussion is really vital to get opinions across.

It technically is a game, Dark Wraith. Something you do for enjoyability and for fun is considered a game. For example, I could consider this debate a game, as right now I'm having a lot of fun arguing my point.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Dark Wraith
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
I define a hobby as something I do for fun. A "game", to me, is something that ends in a winner and loser, where the objective is to triumph over something or to gain an advantage in some way in order to win.

</splitting hairs> :lol:
[align=center]Posted Image
(Click for complete character list)

[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Cathartic
Member Avatar
Slave
[ * ]
Quote:
 
When was the last time you checked through some of the characters posted?


When was the last time you checked through the stories featuring those characters? There are few to none. How could you possibly be heating up this argument if you don't have any evidence that the quality of this world is marred by what you gathered from a couple of (admittedly not entirely original) character sheets?

Quote:
 
It's written in a consistent world that we all have to deal with. This discussion is really vital to get opinions across.


Then what's the next discussion about? A consistent pantheon? A final version of the world map? Why don't we just agree to all write a part of a single, consistent novel?

Anyhow, I'm not going to argue the point anymore, unless I'm directly addressed. Eluthaun said it, Wraith said it. Let's write, not game.
[align=center]Posted Image[/align]
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Tchar'zanek
Member Avatar
Serf
[ * ]
Dark Wraith,Jul 31 2008
11:16 PM
</splitting hairs> :lol:

Indeed. The reason I added that part about a game is because my point has already been made several times, so there's really nothing else I can add. I think, considering it's everyone in this thread versus me, that we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and people will go on making whatever characters they want. Which is too bad, really. Constraints would do wonders for certain people.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Shrine of Thoth · Next Topic »
Locked Topic