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Twilight: Anti-Feminist?; Come discuss. Spoilers for all books.
Topic Started: Aug 20 2008, 11:47 PM (347 Views)
Lady Noliana
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Chelsea of the Volturi

So, recently, I've been hearing a lot of things about this. And it's such a sensitive issue, one that I know many of us have strong opinions about, and I thought it would be great to try to debunk some of these myths.

There's a great article in the Washington Post about whether the anti-feminist accusations really have any footing. Great article. Must quote:

Quote:
 
Yet on some level, it seems that children may know human nature better than grown-ups do. Consider: The fascination that romance holds for many girls is not a mere social construct; it derives from something deeper. In my research on youth and gender issues, I have found that despite all the indoctrination they've received to the contrary, most of the hundreds of teenage girls I have interviewed in the United States, Australia and New Zealand nevertheless believe that human nature is gendered to the core. They are hungry for books that reflect that sensibility. Three decades of adults pretending that gender doesn't matter haven't created a generation of feminists who don't need men; they have instead created a horde of girls who adore the traditional male and female roles and relationships in the "Twilight" saga. Likewise, ignoring gender differences hasn't created a generation of boys who muse about their feelings while they work on their scrapbooks. Instead, a growing number of boys in this country spend much of their free time absorbed in the masculine mayhem of video games such as Grand Theft Auto and Halo or surfing the Internet for pornography.


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txgrl
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I think that ther is a difference between women getting stepped on in the workplace & in socety and just being your gender. I dont think that they are relevant at all.
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AnnaMarie_Cullen
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OK I read that article you posted in the Movie News thread, Noli, and does anyone agree with me when I say I want to slap her?

I don't get it. If Twilight is as anti-feminist as everyone says it is, then why are women still reading it? Why aren't we throwing it down in dusgust and shunning Stephenie Meyer from the literary world?

I like this defense post that someone posted there (it was under the one you posted in the M.N. thread) because it's true...

Quote:
 
I find that the enormous popularity of the Twilight series proves that now more than ever girls and young women are showing an affinity for traditional gender roles. I think it is a naturally built-in characteristic of a female to want to be cherished, and wherever is the harm in that? Does it make women any less stronger, independent, or intelligent than men?
I also find that a feminist debate over a fantasy novel is rather childish, this book is FICTIONAL, the characters do not share a normal relationship, yet it is being judged as so. I think the real debate should be whether the girls consumming these books are old enough to separate fantasy and reality.
Concerning the hero… Your sarcasm over Edward and Bella’s chastity doesn’t apply. The character of Edward is not a “perfect” seventeen year-old-boy, he is a 107-year-old man. He was born into a world in which people actually possessed scruples.
Concerning the heroine… Did any one stop to point out the feminist nature in Bella before she was thrust into the world of vampires? Did anyone make comparisons to Bella and your “ordinary” teenage girl? She was a precocious, independent, self-sustaining female who had never had a serious relationship and cringed at the thought of marriage? How feminist can you get?
Also, this whole outrage over Bella’s need to be constantly saved is hilarious. What do you expect her to do when confronted with a mythical monster- stop Edward in his tracks and say, ” It’s okay babe, I got it!”?
Concerning the pregnancy, I feel that Meyer’s characters possess traits to be admired, not disparaged. They are loving and self-sacrificing. However, in a world where women are quick to abort HUMAN babies, much less violent, blood-sucking ones, Bella’s actions could be perceived with misunderstanding and disgust.
I do not think the Twilight books are the best books in the whole world, nor is Meyer the best author. I DO however, feel that they should be appreciated for what they are- escapist fantasies- nothing more, nothing less


It's rediculous, though how much people keep arguing that these books are anti-feminist. I have not seen one thing anti-feminist in the Saga once. Not ever.
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txgrl
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Its not anti femenist. @ all! like I said feminist is in like a work place or in societly, like running for president. NOT IN HOW THEY ACT!!!
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Mary Alice Cullen
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This post will contain BD Spoilers, so beware.

Twilight is a book. It should be regarded as a book; Stephenie never intended for it to be an "opinion book"--it was just a BOOK. Crafted from her dreams. I will now try to make some first points against the Twilight anti-feminist theory.

1) To me, a lot of things they are calling Bella weak for are actual strong points of her. Aren't feminists all about fighting for womens' rights? Bella wants to be changed. She gets it, one way or another. Bella wants Edward--she gets him. Yeah, at first Bella doesn't want marriage, but it's not like the girl is forced into it. A lot of people say that she worships Edward... In the first book, yeah, probably. I honestly see that declining after New Moon. She becomes annoyed with him. She fights with him. And I certainly don't think she worships Jacob. I actually think that a lot of Bella's "worship" thing is more over the fact that Edward is a vampire--you don't see her tripping over herself to follow Mike/Eric/Jacob's orders. Bella fawns over Edward at times, but her behavior around him can be very similar to her behavior around the rest of the Cullens... Because they're inhuman. This isn't a real-life story; it's supernatural fiction, and a romance at that. I agree with Stephenie; these books aren't anti-women, they're anti-human. Look at Alice and Rosalie. Considering the fact that they're tenacious, fiery, and have their men on leashes, I wouldn't call them weak women.

2) Another apparently anti-feminist is the pregnancy thing in BD. I see a lot of people arguing over Bella's apparent teen pregnancy. I'd like to say this: Bella is younger than one of my cousins was when she had her baby, and she gave said baby up for adoption. However, their situations are vastly different. Bella is married. Bella did not have unprotected bannedword before marriage. And quite frankly, Bella resisted Edward trying to make her get an abortion... So isn't that fighting for her right to keep her baby?

3) Of course Bella's going to be at a disadvantage next to all these supernaturals. To me, of course she's going to mourn the love of her life. (New Moon.) To me, Edward leaving was nearly worse than it would have been if he died. Because Bella still thought he was never coming back... And didn't want to. Sorry. I'd be pretty emotionally scarred about that myself, if the guy was the love of my life. Hate to say it to the overly sensitive feminists out there, but have you seen the way many teenage girls react when they're just dumped by their first serious boyfriend? They mope. They cry. They talk about how "I loved him!" Bella's reaction was magnified because she had something far beyond the average teenage love... And she was still just eighteen.
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Lady Noliana
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Chelsea of the Volturi

I mostly hate it because people try to pick out really sinister messages in these books. Obviously, because the main character falls in love out of her league, that's anti-feminist, right? Giving up college to settle down and have a baby, because that's her choice. Inexcusable. We must have a race of women who can procreate on their own, or not at all. (I actually read a summary of a book/movie like that...)

These feminists really get on my nerves. Really. Look, I know it sucks that women don't get paid as much as men. That really sucks. And there are countless other crimes against women. But of all the causes you could be championing, you're trying to tear down a popular book series for teens?

*Noli suddenly sees her own hypocrisy as she bashes Gossip Girl on a daily basis.*

But I don't bring in ridiculous anti-feminist articles. Shoot, you can see anti-feminism anywhere.
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Mary Alice Cullen
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It's true--they're wasting their time on something that is only making girls turn off the TV and read. It's a sad day when people start going against books because the characters aren't "feminist" enough for them.

Another thing that angers me--offends me, actually--is the fact that so many people seem to believe that teenage girls are so easily influenced. Um... So. Just because I'm reading a Harlequin romance novel, that means I'm going to run off to find Colonel What's-His-Name and get pregnant with his illegitimate child? Just because I'm reading some book about airheads in the Hamptons, that means I'm going to go sail away on my imaginary yacht in search of skinny-dipping guys and parties? Just because I'm reading a book about vampires, that means I'm going to surrender myself to the next Edward-impersonator that walks by and/or dabble in the occult?

Honestly, people, how stupid do you think that I, a teenager, am? Have you seen a sudden rise in crimes against women after Twilight was published? No. Have you seen a rise in girls going off to practice "dark arts"? Don't think so. This makes me think of my poor Twilighter friend whose dad underestimates her sense of reality.

Friend: But you let me read Harry Potter!
The Dad: That's because I don't think you'll go out and utter spells?
Me: So... He thinks you'll run after some vampires, then?

People are severely underestimating the readers of Twilight; you don't need to be incredibly mature, or even that smart, to realize that vampires aren't real, and just because a guy is smooth and hot, doesn't mean he's Your Edward Cullen.

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AnnaMarie_Cullen
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Anti-Feminism is everywhere, but seriously, why are we trying to point out anti-feminism in a fantasy novel; A novel where there really are no boundaries? A novel in which the author created the entire world, their characters and their personality traits out of their own imagination?

If Stepehnie Meyer had wanted to write a book filled to brim with anti-feminism situations, I'm sure she could have done so, but did she? No. She wrote a compelling love story that got entangled in the world of mythology. A novel where the women have made their own choices based on their own beliefs.
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Lady Noliana
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Chelsea of the Volturi

^All true. People fail to understand that fans of this book know the characters are imperfect. To be perfectly honest, if a boy were to act as Edward does, we'd probably be really creeped out. We know this. But in Twilight, Edward is not a normal boy. He is a 107-year-old vampire who is relearning all his human traits. He hasn't interacted with a human in ninety years. And the intense emotions Bella brings out in him sort of blind him from rational behavior. He's got nothing better to do, of course he's going to go hang out at Bella's house and watch her. He loves her. And that, my friends, is the core truth. Edward loves Bella, and their relationship isn't normal. Because it is love, not just a mutual attraction. They are soulmates. They are going to grieve when they are separated. And they want to share their life together, so why not get married as soon as possible?

No one is saying that Edward is perfect, but his love redeems him. He puts Bella's interests above his own, which means he would never, ever hurt her intentionally. (I think I'm going off on an Edward-is-not-an-abusive-boyfriend tangent.)

Anyway, to me, what these feminists are saying, to me, is basically this, "Forget it. Guys like this? They don't exist. Not even close. So stop hoping for someone who will love you unconditionally, beyond rational thought. There ain't no happily ever afters for you, kid, and those books are polluting your brain. Now, let me show you how to burn your bra."

XD
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AnnaMarie_Cullen
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I still am not seeing where they are saying that Edward is abusive. Um, I don't see any form of abuse there.

And another thing,
Quote:
 
Forget it. Guys like this? They don't exist. Not even close. So stop hoping for someone who will love you unconditionally, beyond rational thought.



How would they know that no guy is ever going to love someone unconditionally? It happens, it really does, and not just in books or movies either. Every person has their soul mate out there, and Bella just happened to find hers in an immortal 107-year-old man with an interesting appetite. Big. Freaking. Whoop. If that's who she wants, and that's who's going to love her for who she is, and she can accept that, then what the heck is wrong with that? How is loving someone back in every way you can anti-feminist?
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Lady Noliana
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Chelsea of the Volturi

^Because the feminists think you don't need a man. They think that Bella is unhealthily addicted to him and that it's teaching girls that you won't be complete until you find someone. Which is untrue. Bella didn't want a guy in her life, obviously, but Edward was different. And once she formed that bond with Edward, there was no taking it back. As you said, big. Freaking. Whoop.
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AnnaMarie_Cullen
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Yeah, and that's bullcrap. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have a guy in your life. Not one thing. Now if you're crazily obsessed with said guy and are clingy and annoying about it then, yeah forget it.

But yeah, it's not like Bella just picked him randomly and said, "Oh, him? I think I'll fall in love with him, and practically get myself killed over it because, oh yeah, he happens to be a vampire!"
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txgrl
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I cant even post rationaly im so pissed at this.
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sparkly
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Uggh, I hate this type of crap. It distracts people's attention from REAL gender equality issues (like you guys touched on) like wage disparities, bannedwordual harassment (erm, yes, it really does happen. And from really OLD dudes), and the like. And it drives me nuts when Bella getting pregnant and keeping her child is somehow anti-feminist, but killing the baby wouldn't be. I will try and not go on an abortion rant here, but honestly, well, okay maybe I will (ha): Since when did women get so irresponsible that they can't manage to use contraception and prevent unwanted pregnancies in the FIRST place? I mean, yes, it takes two to tango, but it's so odd to me that again and again it is seen as anti-feminist to be pro-life, when in all reality getting all worked up over abortion rights is assuming the inability of both parties to responsibly prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Now I realize there are exceptions, blah blah. But my point is that I have enough respect for the ladies to know that we're smarter than all this crap. We can DECIDE if we want to have a child, if we want to suffer consequences of unprotected bannedword, if we want to marry a masculine guy or not or be really feminine or not, or have a traditional gender role in our relationship or not. It just bugs me that women are being put in a box here. Because when they are accusing this type of inane crap in a novel as being ANTI-feminist, they are also accusing anyone who may fall into the same stereotypes as being the same. And THAT, is anti-feminist.
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Lady Noliana
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Chelsea of the Volturi

PREACH. IT.

Omg, thank you so much, sparkly. For real. They are basically saying that any woman who does not fit in the liberal mold is an anti-feminist. Which is beyond hypocritical, really. If a woman makes the choice to keep her child, then how is that considered anti-feminist? It's beyond me, honestly.

(By the way, I consider "pro-choice" to be the nicest euphemism in the world for murder. But that's just me.)
Edited by Lady Noliana, Aug 26 2008, 12:58 AM.
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