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Simon Says...; YOU DECIDE!
Topic Started: Feb 9 2008, 02:11 PM (2,130 Views)
Big Tuna
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The Master and Ruler Of The World

Well, if you read my CHIKARA vs ROH booking on Page 1, it continues from that. Hero and Quack defended the honor of their promotion, and after a period of animosity, united for the cause, and drove out the ROH invaders. In the Cibernetico of CHIKARA vs ROH, they were the last two, and the decision was made to reunite The Superfriends for the 2009 Tag World Grand Prix.

They do suprisingly well, defeating Sabian/Ruckus, Up in Smoke, and Incoherence to make it to the finals against Team FIST. Everything seems to be going pretty well and they gel, until Hero is getting worked over. He makes the tag to Quack, and he rushes in, but turns around and clocks Hero in the jaw! The crowd boos now, as Quack and FIST beat down Chris Hero, and Quack debuts the QD4, taking out Hero and announcing the formation of The Rogues League, as he takes back his former proteges of Team FIST.

Eventually, Hero would return, swearing vengeance and trying to win back the acceptance of the roster, getting Claudio back onto his side to fight the new evil stable.
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DM/SS
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I know your after booking, but I want a puro fan's opinion on a match.

Austin Angle Unforgiven 2001, where Kurt wins his second strap.

DID he fuck up this match with his massive underselling of the neck or is it just me? The first ten minutes of brawling are "fun", then you have 5 minutes of Austin working the neck... then pretty much a no sell job from Angle till the end of the match, holding it occasionally, with some average near falls.

The only plus's in this match for me are a) Austin's ring pyschology and constantly working the neck; it's simple, but well done B) Right at the start Austin being scared to kick the midsection as Angle has been constantly reversing that into the ankle lock.. yet he has to attempt the kick to set up the Stunner at the end after Angle kicks out of the piledriver via desperation, leading to the finish. That's for the win.

Other than that, nothing. I rate it ***1/2 max. Yet I have constantly heard great things about it.
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Big Tuna
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The Master and Ruler Of The World

Angle's lack of selling definitely hurts the match for me, but I can justify it with the angle on the SD! before the PPV with Angle showing up and ripping off the neck brace, which to an 11 year old mark that Angle wasn't as badly damaged by the attack as Austin thought.

Still, him selling more would add to more drama than had already existed going in (which was a lot), and the match was made good/great by heat alone, combined with the timing of Kurt's title win. Plus, I was one of like 5 people who liked the Invasion storyline.

I don't think he totally fucked it up, but if he sold more, the match would have been in the ****+ territory for me, where as I'd stay around ***1/2-***3/4. Still, a great feud and their Summerslam match makes me forgive any other lesser matches these two had against each other.
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DM/SS
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I completely and utterly agree - I found some guy on youtube (KTMan12) who has like.. 90 full shows uploaded. Every PPV from 2001 with about 15 raw and smackdowns scattered around them that I'm wading through.. I was so dissapointed with Angle there, but yes, Summerslam was outrageously good. I've seen it before but truly appreciated it on a second viewing, it's one of those.

Ok, booking question - say Flair and Goldberg are around for the Invasion angle (Not Sting, but Flair and Goldberg are realistic considering they joined within two years anyway).

Book them; tell me when they debut and book them till Survivor Series 2001.
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the White John Cena 2.5
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I got a good one, since Simon or Maxwell, one of you two, you're probably really the same person, or at least a Tyler Durden/Jack the Narrator situation.


Anyways, book you're first year in pro wrestling with that obscure lucha promotion you showed me (whichever one of you it was).
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Big Tuna
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That was probably Maxwell, the one training with some obscure lucha promotion.

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Maxwell
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Yeah, that's me. I may cross over to a different school, I may not. Let's say I stick with lucha. They do one or two shows a month. I would book myself like this:

-After a singles undercard match, a large man in shorts and a huge British Flag sweat shirt storms the ring and lays out both luchadores. He stands tall in the ring, and removes the big hoodie. He's a tall, big, white man. No mask, nothing flashy.

-The next month, the exact same thing happens. However, this time, a number of luchadores come out and chase away the big man. The big man takes the microphone, and says, "My name is Maximo Estrella...Me llamo Maximo Estrella. I'm the new star of lucha libre...Soy la estrella nueva de lucha libre."

-The next show, Maximo comes out to the ring for a match, dressed in flashy garbage bag shorts that are maroon and gold with matching kickpads. He has on a cutoff black underarmour top. He talks on his cell phone as he swaggers down to the ring. His opponent comes out. Maximo impresses with some lucha stuff early on, but can't keep up with his opponent's quickness. Because of this, he resorts to using his power and cheating to get the win. After the match, Maximo leaves, only stopping once to pose.

-The next show, Maximo is teaming with Gringo Loco to face Los Meteoros. Maximo and Gringo lose the match when Maximo is pinned with a flashy roll up. The two then DESTROY Los Meteoros. After the match, Hurrican Ramerez, Charly Manson Jr. and El Tigre hit the ring, chasing off the two men.

-In the main event of that same show, Yakuza beats Charly Manson Jr. after Maximo Estrella gives him the assist. Yakuza announces that he was behind Maximo all along, and lays down a challenge for a trios match at the next show.

-Maximo Estrella, Gringo Loco and Yakuza beat Charly Manson Jr., Hurrican Ramerez and El Tigre.

Now you have three strong heels and three strong face atop the roster.
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the White John Cena 2.5
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So you booked yourself as a main eventer after like 7 shows?


I would book you this way. You come out, acting lucha, try lucha moves, you don't use your strength, you don't use your size.

You lose a ton of matches, you get a mentor, he says something along the lines of "esse you have to learn to use your size homes" so under his guidance and the learning of his other friend you guys form a trios team (this is after about 4 months of jobbing) you start getting the pins in matches because you're bigger than they are.

Eventually, you start getting cocky, you don't roll out or tag out, you hog the ring, win matches, do dastardly things, take things too far. Your mentor disagrees with this. Around this time you really start to fall in love with yourself and start primping your hair all nice.

For a few months, tension builds until eventually, after a match where you relentlessly beat a younger, smaller luchadore, you strike your mentor. This starts the feud. Over the next few shows, you gather a group of other young, self-centered american wrestlers and face off against your former mentor's team of luchadores.

It gets heated and comes down to a 2/3 falls captain tag match. If your team wins, you get to decide the stipulation of the 1 on 1 match the following show, if he wins, he gets to decide. There's a controversial finish. Since I see a lot of "illegal" moves used in lucha to end in a DQ, that's how this ends, with you performing an illegal move on your mentor, trying to cripple him. He gets "injured."

For the next month and a half, you and your team of arrogant americans disrespect everything lucha libre is about. Until one show, a 6 man tag, your team wins and beats the shit out of a fan favorite, your mentor comes out of the crowd, street clothes with a crutch and a mask and beats you all off (no, not like that). He challenges you to a match. You, being the asshole you are, tell him to put his heritage, his mask on the line. He says that he will, but you have to put your beloved hair on the line.

So then, after like 18 months of build-up, it's Maxie-Pad vs his mentor in a hair vs mask 2/3 falls match. He wins, getting the final 2 falls and you learn a lesson about heritage and respect, you apologize and everyone goes home happy.



Like it?
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Maxwell
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I mained myself that fast because it's a school fed, kinda like CHIKARA.

Your idea is really good too though.
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the White John Cena 2.5
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WLW is a school fed, but the rooks don't get pushed that fast. They normally go jobber for half the year, hone their character, get in a minor feud, and find a tag partner.

How many people are in each class and how many new graduates do you get?
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Maxwell
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Other than like, 4-5 guys, its all old students who trained, starting in about, mmm...Nov. 2005? Im really not to sure of the history, as the school started out in a garage, and then the promotion sprung up last spring. The class I'm in has 5 other guys. They used to have like, 9, but a lot dropped out because they couldn't handle it. It's pretty crazy that guys drop out. I mean, it's tough, and it's hard, but if you have the passion, quitting isn't even an option.
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the White John Cena 2.5
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What's the worst part about it?
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Maxwell
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Just taking bump after bump. Near the end of a session, everyone is a little bit sore and wants to go home. It's also early in the morning, which might bother some people. Plus your pretty much sore the rest of the day, which isn't the most fun way to spend a weekend.
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Chaotic Vision6
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When the time comes.. Will Hero get a good match out of Dempsey?
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Big Tuna
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The Master and Ruler Of The World

Hero got ****1/2 out of Equinox and **** out of Shane Storm. I'm not saying he will or he won't, but I will never be surprised if he does.
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DM/SS
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Paul London or PAC?

Question 2) Just how awesome is CIMA? After BOLA (havn't seen the final yet) I am MASSIVELY impressed by him.. like, one of the sickest wrestlers I've seen. His moveset is incredible, his striking is Lowkesque, his selling is mindfuckingly awesome.. it's like, how can a spotty stiff guy sell this well.. Basically, I think he is one of the better all round wrestlers I've seen in a long time.

Am I over rating him, has he just had a series of good matches, or do you rate him highly too?
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Chaotic Vision6
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Not answering for Simon but I just wannas ay I love CIMA and DM/SS you need to watch the CIMA vs Yoshino match that just went down in Dragon Gate. Really great paced match. Hes definatley the master of the double stomp as he has so many variatons of them and places to hit them. CIMA is basically the ace of Dragon Gate/ Booker/ part promoter of the promotion.

His new (first time ive seen it) aqua ring attire is bad ass.
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Big Tuna
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Yeah, that Yoshino match from Thursday was pretty great. I thought it was paced a little weird at points, but I was surrrprised that a DG title match actually had limbwork that payed off. And Speed Muscle reuniting and possibly ditching MOZ was pretty awesome. Not a patch on the KENTaiji vs New Hazard tag from the same show, but pretty awesome.

London, hands down. When PAC has a wrestling match half as good as London/AJ or the Epic Encounter, we'll talk. In his ROH work, London formed an emotional connection as the first ever homegrown ROH talent, where as at this point, PAC is all flipz and movez, and there's nothing wrong with that when done well, it's just that at this point, PAC will never get beyond very good because there's no reason to care about him.

As for CIMA, yeah he's always been awesome. As CV6 said, he's the Ace of Dragon Gate, the booker, and responsible for all foreign talent, meaning that his only real flaws are why he ever booked the SAT. At point in some 30-ish minute Dragon Gate epic matches, he kind of forgets about selling, but that's more of a criticism of how that style is more suited for 20 -25 minutes in singles matches.

To truly grasp how GREAT CIMA is, you need to see him in some trios matches. I'd recommend hunting down the CIMA/Doi/Fuji vs DK/Genki/Ryo Saito 6-man from 7/4/2005, as to me it's like a longer and better version of the famous ROH 6 man.
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the White John Cena 2.5
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A few years ago, London and Styles were pretty much the exact same as far as how good they are and where they were in their careers.

Years later, who is better now, who has a brighter future, and who made the better decisions?
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Big Tuna
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The Master and Ruler Of The World

That all depends on your view of what's more important. I'm fairly confident that London makes more money than AJ, gets to travel more, and has pretty good job security (i mean shit, Funaki's still employed) that I know of.

On the other hand, AJ gets to have better matches and be in the spotlight more, but he's also in a promotion booked by people with Down's.

I think AJ has the brighter future as far as wrestling goes, but I think London made the better decisions.

A better study would be be CM Punk and Samoa Joe, best friends in wrestling who pretty much saved ROH in 2004, and then went in completely opposite directions.
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