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Topic Started: December 14, 2014, 10:36 pm (5,091 Views)
JustinVuong
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Before your country can officially take part in the Altverse community, you must first go through the application process. Before you apply, make sure to read the Rules and the official page. In addition, you must provide a link to the main article of the country you plan to be using. Although strongly encouraged but not required, the article should be of decent length that provides sufficient information about the country. Be prepared to make the necessary changes to your country before it can be deemed a part of Altverse. Under no circumstance may you add your nation, claim your nation is part of, or otherwise insert information that may give the impression that your country is in any shape or form connected to Altverse and/or its material until you have been given explicit approval from the community consensus/moderator.

Code:
 
[center][b]Your Country Name[/b][/center]
[list]
[*][b][url=http://www.conworld.wikia.com/wiki/Your_Country_Name]Link[/url][/b]
[*][b]Real World Countries and Land Claimed[/b]:
[*][b]Why you want to join[/b]:
[*][b]Have you read everything concerning Altverse?[/b]: (Y/N)
[*][b]Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?[/b]: (Y/N)
[*][b]Other[/b]: Your additional comments here.
[/list]


Example
Kingdom of Sierra

  • Link
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: California, Nevada, Arizona, Baja California, Baja California Sur, Sonora, Hawaiian Islands, American Samoa, Easter Island, Kiribati
  • Why you want to join: I really enjoy collaborating with others and I want to have fun.
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
  • Other: This is just an example but I'd like to point out that you can also provide links to other important pages related to your country to enhance understanding. Links to the government page, flags, or military are great.
Edited by JustinVuong, January 3, 2015, 6:49 pm.
| Kingdom of Sierra (main) | Mexican Social Republic | Great Korean Empire | Republic of Vietnam |
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BIPU
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Zabuza825
March 27, 2015, 5:15 pm
BIPU
March 27, 2015, 10:54 am
Well, I will try to answer to your gripes but I have to remember you that Baltic Unión is a nation modeled for a previous Project, Future World, and some of the things related to Baltic Unión has no explanation outside the Future World enviroment at that time. I have to made some changes in the hisotry and historyline of Baltic Union in order to fit it in Alt Verse.

#1
My idea is a unión of the three nordic nations (Denmark, Norway and Sweden) based on the unión of their three crowns and the growth of scandinavic nationalism in the last decades of the 20th century. This growth was specially important after the revolution in UK because of the fear of being involved in their own revolution. The unión and the strengthening of the monarchy was the nordic answer to socialism. The incorporation of Iceland will be easy to explain with this idea of nordic nationalism.

After the collapse of Soviet Union and the that reigned in the early years of Yeltsin, the newly formed baltic democracies (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) needed an "umbrela" over their heads to protect them and to let them move forward without fears. It was a way to limit their internal (back to communism / socialism) or external (Russia) threats. In real world, the "umbrela" has been the European Union, but here in Alt Verse, this umbrella could well be a Nordic Union or Baltic Union. Think that my idea of "unión" is a kind of federal monarchy where the former nations maintain a high grade of self government in the daily matters.

In real world Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania has close ties with the nordic countries and, for example, they are members Nordic Council from their independence.

#2
Of course this is linked to the #1. The name Baltic Union was thought as a more inclusive name because "Baltic Union" makes reference to the Baltic Sea, so Sweden and Denmark could be so "baltic" as Estonia is. Anyway, without Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania the name Baltic Union has no meaning and it should be changed. I have no problem with changing the name to any other kind of "... Union"

#3
Denmark is the core of nordic history and culture. Norway was joined to Denmark from 1397 to 1814 and from 1397 to 1523 Sweden was too. Their Royal families has strong family ties and their culture, language, economy and society has strong ties too. No nordic unión is possible without Denmark.

#4&5
What could be the official language of a nation formed by other 7 nations with different languages? Looking to answer this question I thought "English" or "Esperanto" because latin, my first choice, could not be explained easily in scandinavia.

Really, I dont know. I think this is a bit stupid too and I have to give it a thought.

Anyway, Baltic Union in Future World was a nation very worried about what minorities or groups could think so it was needed a language that could not be interpreted as an imposition. Alt Verse Union will be much less cheesy so this will not be a major problem.
#1:
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania may have close diplomatic ties with Nordic nations, but I don't really think that those ties are culture one. As for the whole "umbrella for protection from the Russia", that could be the EU, but I don't really see it being the thing with the Baltic Union. I would like to point out that IRL Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are NOT full members of the Nordic Council, they are just observers. Furthermore, I believe that the "umbrella" you are referring to IRL is NATO, of which all three nations are a part of, rather than the EU. NATO would probably better serve the purpose of protection as the superpower that is the US is part of it.


#2:
The only issue with that is that if the union started out between Sweden and Norway, then Norway has no connection to the Baltic sea.

#3:
Again, this is only something with how it looks in my eyes, it's not a big issue and if you want to include Denmark I have no problem with it. I just prefer my land borders to look a little elegant, and having Denmark just makes it look odd to me.

Though if you're going to bring up culture, I would like to point out that Finland also has just as strong ties to Scandinavia, as during the 17th century it was ruled by the Swedish Empire, and I don't mean it was part of the territories that the Swedes later conquered, I mean when the Empire was established by King Gustav Vasa in the 16th century Finland was part of it. If you're going for a cultural union, perhaps you could include Finland as well?

#4&5:
Perhaps you could have each member choose their own official language, and then use that? Or you could just choose to have no official language. Or you could go the route Belgium has taken and just have each language spoken in the member-states be official.
As I said before, the wiki article you can read about Baltic Union was created for Future World in a particular time. The only real reason to not include Finland was that at that time Finland was being played by other nation.

Real World Finland (even if it was dominated by Sweden until 19th century) is not in a strict sense a "scandinavian" country and is cultural, linguistic and racial more close to Estonia than to Norway. Finland, as well as Estonia and Latvia, were part of the Swedish empire before to be part of the Russian empire.

I'm not consider NATO as the only possible "umbrela" because of two things:
- The best way to strenghten a nation is not to put your troops on it (the american way) but to help the development of that nation. In that sense, for example, the European Union represent almost 80% of the whole external investment in Estonia (Sweden is 26%) and during the 2014-2020 period the European Union will allocate Cohesion Funds to Estonia (1123 Millions euros), Latvia (1412 Million euros) and Lithuania (2145 Million euros). In my opinión, being members of EU is much more beneficial for baltic people than to be members of NATO.
- Without the pressure from USA and UK to avoid the creation of an European Army, EU would be perfectly capable to protect the baltic states.

==> In Alt Verse the UK is not a pupet nation serving the american interest as it is in RL and the European Union is not developed in game so, why dont a strong economic and military Baltic Union could have been the place to live for the baltic republics?

I think that there are enought reasons to support the integration of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to a potencial unión of the nordic countries. Nevertheless, I dont need them to develop my nation in Alt Verse and, of course, thinking in any kind of national matter is easier to integrate Finland than the Baltic states. That is the why I renounce to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and I will ask for Finland.

I will need a couple of days to change the wiki to the new nation that will be called "Kalmar Union" to honor the 15th century one.
Si vis pacen, para bellum.
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Zabuza825

BIPU
March 27, 2015, 7:54 pm
As I said before, the wiki article you can read about Baltic Union was created for Future World in a particular time. The only real reason to not include Finland was that at that time Finland was being played by other nation.

Real World Finland (even if it was dominated by Sweden until 19th century) is not in a strict sense a "scandinavian" country and is cultural, linguistic and racial more close to Estonia than to Norway. Finland, as well as Estonia and Latvia, were part of the Swedish empire before to be part of the Russian empire.

I'm not consider NATO as the only possible "umbrela" because of two things:
- The best way to strenghten a nation is not to put your troops on it (the american way) but to help the development of that nation. In that sense, for example, the European Union represent almost 80% of the whole external investment in Estonia (Sweden is 26%) and during the 2014-2020 period the European Union will allocate Cohesion Funds to Estonia (1123 Millions euros), Latvia (1412 Million euros) and Lithuania (2145 Million euros). In my opinión, being members of EU is much more beneficial for baltic people than to be members of NATO.
- Without the pressure from USA and UK to avoid the creation of an European Army, EU would be perfectly capable to protect the baltic states.

==> In Alt Verse the UK is not a pupet nation serving the american interest as it is in RL and the European Union is not developed in game so, why dont a strong economic and military Baltic Union could have been the place to live for the baltic republics?

I think that there are enought reasons to support the integration of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to a potencial unión of the nordic countries. Nevertheless, I dont need them to develop my nation in Alt Verse and, of course, thinking in any kind of national matter is easier to integrate Finland than the Baltic states. That is the why I renounce to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and I will ask for Finland.

I will need a couple of days to change the wiki to the new nation that will be called "Kalmar Union" to honor the 15th century one.
Well I was going to bring up another thing until I read the last paragraph.

At this point, I see no real reason to continue the discussion as you have said that all the major issues I had will be addressed.

I'll reserve my final judgement until I see the updated wiki page, but from what I gather you'll probably not have any more issues from me.

Oh, and I have no objections to you taking Finland to make up for the loss of the Baltic States. Dunno about the others, but I don't have any objections.
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UnitedRepublic02
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Second German Empire (Germany)

  • (not yet created due to awaiting approval)
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Germany, Luxembourg, Kaliningrad Oblast, Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, Warminsko-Mazurskie, northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie, and southern sections of Opolskie
  • Why you want to join:
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: (Y/N)
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: (Y/N)
  • Other: Two years after the reunification of Germany, a sense of patriotism rooted itself within the German people. It became welcomed within Germany as it had been frowned upon since her defeat in 1945 but was soon seen again in the fatherland. However, the Germans felt something was missing but could be revived; the Kaiserreich. With the rise of socialism in Europe with Westland still surviving since the end of the Cold War, and Britannia new in the game, the Germans decided to restore the Hohenzollern throne as the monarchy was a symbol of pride, power, and unity. Prince Georg Friedrich was reinstated as Emperor Frederick IV (Kaiser Friedrich IV) and the imperial flag flew over Berlin on April 11, 1994 following the signing of the Hohenzollern Treaty in Berlin.

    In 1995, a deal was brokered within the European Parliament and the United Nations with Germany's demands for former German lands in Poland, Russia, and Gaul. The deal settled the cession of the Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia) and the Polish territories of Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, and Warminsko-Mazurskie, as well as northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie and the southern section of Opolskie to Germany under the Zurich Agreement, however no territorial cessions from Gaul to Germany were made.

    Today, Germany remains as one of the most powerful and influential nations in Europe.

    (more to be continued)
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Zabuza825

UnitedRepublic02
March 31, 2015, 10:51 pm
Second German Empire (Germany)

  • (not yet created due to awaiting approval)
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Germany, Luxembourg, Kaliningrad Oblast, Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, Warminsko-Mazurskie, northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie, and southern sections of Opolskie
  • Why you want to join:
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: (Y/N)
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: (Y/N)
  • Other: Two years after the reunification of Germany, a sense of patriotism rooted itself within the German people. It became welcomed within Germany as it had been frowned upon since her defeat in 1945 but was soon seen again in the fatherland. However, the Germans felt something was missing but could be revived; the Kaiserreich. With the rise of socialism in Europe with Westland still surviving since the end of the Cold War, and Britannia new in the game, the Germans decided to restore the Hohenzollern throne as the monarchy was a symbol of pride, power, and unity. Prince Georg Friedrich was reinstated as Emperor Frederick IV (Kaiser Friedrich IV) and the imperial flag flew over Berlin on April 11, 1994 following the signing of the Hohenzollern Treaty in Berlin.

    In 1995, a deal was brokered within the European Parliament and the United Nations with Germany's demands for former German lands in Poland, Russia, and Gaul. The deal settled the cession of the Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia) and the Polish territories of Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, and Warminsko-Mazurskie, as well as northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie and the southern section of Opolskie to Germany under the Zurich Agreement, however no territorial cessions from Gaul to Germany were made.

    Today, Germany remains as one of the most powerful and influential nations in Europe.

    (more to be continued)
First off - this wouldn't be the Second German Empire. That already existed. The Second German Empire was the German Empire or Deutsches Reich as it's called in German. The Third "Empire" was Nazi Germany (it is known as the "Third Reich" after all). At this point, you probably are wondering what the First German Empire was. The first empire would be the Heiliges Römisches Reich, better known in English as the Holy Roman Empire (despite the fact that it wasn't holy, wasn't roman, and wasn't an empire).

Now to my main point

As much as I desperately want to support this (I really would be interested in a Germany player, not to mention that I've always been fascinated by the German Empire), there are a whole slew of issues that need to be addressed.

First of all, there is a reason why the territories Germany had to cede were not returned to Germany, in spite of the fact that West Germany continued to claim them up until German Reunification.

It's simple - after World War 2 all Germans in those areas were EXPELLED, forcibly evicted, told to GTFO. It didn't matter if the land was German and had been German for centuries, the Allies told all the Germans there to GTFO. This wasn't exclusive to Germany, it also happened to Japan too (in the Southwestern Kuril Islands, which had been Japanese land long before both world wars).

Was this a violation of human rights? Well, many human rights experts say it was. However, nations like Poland continue to adamantly deny this, claiming that the "transfer" (they use the term "transfer" rather than "expulsion" to describe the expulsion of Germans from those territories) was justified because of Nazi atrocities during WW2.

Since this event, in international law expulsion of a population is generally considered an illegal act. However, many nations maintain that the expulsion of Germans was legal because they claim it wasn't an "expulsion", it was a "population transfer". Many scholars worry however that this legal loophole essentially makes ethnic cleansing by means of "population transfer" (rather than outright genocide) legal under international law.

Now, really we only have three options to address this issue. None are very realistic, but here it is:

Option 1:
Human rights scholars decide that the massive expulsion of Germans from formerly-German territory (note I state FORMERLY GERMAN TERRITORY, THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE NAZI-OCCUPIED TERRITORY) would constitute a grave violation of human rights. and thus declares it illegal, stopping the transfer.

The problem - I find it VERY VERY hard to believe that the USSR would allow such a ruling to come out, and even if it did they probably wouldn't give a shit.

Option 2:
After the fall of communism, Germans flood back into the former territories. Nations recognize the human rights abuse that the expulsion was and return some territory to Germany.

The problem - I find it VERY VERY hard to believe that Russia would agree to this, not to mention that by this time the majority population in those formerly-German areas would be Poles or Russians or whatever else, which makes me highly doubt that the governments would allow this to happen.

Option 3:
All of East Prussia is transferred to Poland (except for Memel, which is still transferred to then-Soviet controlled Lithuania), whith no other territorial changes to Germany after WW2. Expulsions happen as it did in real life, just not in as much places simply because there is less formerly German land to expell Germans from. The eastern parts (minus East Prussia) that stay in Germany become part of East Germany. Cold War goes on as we have it set up in Altverse.

In all honesty, this third option is probably the most realistic. It just requires an adjustment to the Allied plans for Germany after WW2.

The restoration of the monarchy part - while it is a stretch, it's not as much of a stretch as the land territory, so I'm willing to look past that.

SIDE NOTE:

I DO NOT SEE IT TO BE POSSIBLE FOR GERMANY TO GAIN THE TERRITORIES IT HAD BEFORE WW1 NO MATTER HOW FAR I STRETCH THINGS. I just don't think it can happen. For stuff about WW2, I can see a possible argument, but WW1? No, I don't see it happening. I bring this up because I'm not entirely sure what your territory would encompass, a map would help.
Edited by Zabuza825, April 1, 2015, 7:20 am.
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BIPU
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Zabuza825
March 27, 2015, 8:24 pm
BIPU
March 27, 2015, 7:54 pm
As I said before, the wiki article you can read about Baltic Union was created for Future World in a particular time. The only real reason to not include Finland was that at that time Finland was being played by other nation.

Real World Finland (even if it was dominated by Sweden until 19th century) is not in a strict sense a "scandinavian" country and is cultural, linguistic and racial more close to Estonia than to Norway. Finland, as well as Estonia and Latvia, were part of the Swedish empire before to be part of the Russian empire.

I'm not consider NATO as the only possible "umbrela" because of two things:
- The best way to strenghten a nation is not to put your troops on it (the american way) but to help the development of that nation. In that sense, for example, the European Union represent almost 80% of the whole external investment in Estonia (Sweden is 26%) and during the 2014-2020 period the European Union will allocate Cohesion Funds to Estonia (1123 Millions euros), Latvia (1412 Million euros) and Lithuania (2145 Million euros). In my opinión, being members of EU is much more beneficial for baltic people than to be members of NATO.
- Without the pressure from USA and UK to avoid the creation of an European Army, EU would be perfectly capable to protect the baltic states.

==> In Alt Verse the UK is not a pupet nation serving the american interest as it is in RL and the European Union is not developed in game so, why dont a strong economic and military Baltic Union could have been the place to live for the baltic republics?

I think that there are enought reasons to support the integration of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to a potencial unión of the nordic countries. Nevertheless, I dont need them to develop my nation in Alt Verse and, of course, thinking in any kind of national matter is easier to integrate Finland than the Baltic states. That is the why I renounce to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and I will ask for Finland.

I will need a couple of days to change the wiki to the new nation that will be called "Kalmar Union" to honor the 15th century one.
Well I was going to bring up another thing until I read the last paragraph.

At this point, I see no real reason to continue the discussion as you have said that all the major issues I had will be addressed.

I'll reserve my final judgement until I see the updated wiki page, but from what I gather you'll probably not have any more issues from me.

Oh, and I have no objections to you taking Finland to make up for the loss of the Baltic States. Dunno about the others, but I don't have any objections.
I have been working hard fixing and changing all the old stuff from Baltic Union to Kalmar Union. There are still things to change (specially those related to companies) and I plan to continue developing new wiki articles but I think there is a good wiki base to start roleplaying.

If you are agree, I would like you to put Kalmar Union in the list of nations and the map.

Could I edit the League of Nations in order to include Kalmar Union?
Si vis pacen, para bellum.
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Dog of War
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UnitedRepublic02
March 31, 2015, 10:51 pm
Second German Empire (Germany)

  • (not yet created due to awaiting approval)
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Germany, Luxembourg, Kaliningrad Oblast, Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, Warminsko-Mazurskie, northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie, and southern sections of Opolskie
  • Why you want to join:
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: (Y/N)
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: (Y/N)
  • Other: Two years after the reunification of Germany, a sense of patriotism rooted itself within the German people. It became welcomed within Germany as it had been frowned upon since her defeat in 1945 but was soon seen again in the fatherland. However, the Germans felt something was missing but could be revived; the Kaiserreich. With the rise of socialism in Europe with Westland still surviving since the end of the Cold War, and Britannia new in the game, the Germans decided to restore the Hohenzollern throne as the monarchy was a symbol of pride, power, and unity. Prince Georg Friedrich was reinstated as Emperor Frederick IV (Kaiser Friedrich IV) and the imperial flag flew over Berlin on April 11, 1994 following the signing of the Hohenzollern Treaty in Berlin.

    In 1995, a deal was brokered within the European Parliament and the United Nations with Germany's demands for former German lands in Poland, Russia, and Gaul. The deal settled the cession of the Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia) and the Polish territories of Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, and Warminsko-Mazurskie, as well as northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie and the southern section of Opolskie to Germany under the Zurich Agreement, however no territorial cessions from Gaul to Germany were made.

    Today, Germany remains as one of the most powerful and influential nations in Europe.

    (more to be continued)
Actually Zab the nation that would least support German expansion is France (or Gaul). The French government along with the British did all they could in 1989 to stop Germany from re-unifying - it was the US and the USSR's willingness to let Germany unite that allowed for German reunification as well as assurances to France that Germany would not get too...nationalistic again. I highly doubt that France would come to any agreement regarding Germany, same with Luxembourg. I've said before that knowing Germany's tumultuous and influential role in world history that it is very hard to change in a way that would see it more powerful today (obviously its much easier to make Germany a weaker nation - for example making it still divided, something that isn't out of the realms of possibility). I would recommend Zab's third option for the nation - i.e , to never have lost some of its eastern territory found in modern day Poland. Bear in mind that Germany doesn't really need a huge amount of extra territory - it is the economic heavy weight of Europe, and is probably 7th in power behind the US, Russia, China, France, Japan and the UK as well as being the (unofficial) leader of the EU. There's less of a need to make Germany uber powerful in the same way one might make a nation like Brazil more powerful (something not out of the realms of possibility, wink wink)
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Dog of War
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BIPU
April 1, 2015, 10:12 am
Zabuza825
March 27, 2015, 8:24 pm
BIPU
March 27, 2015, 7:54 pm
As I said before, the wiki article you can read about Baltic Union was created for Future World in a particular time. The only real reason to not include Finland was that at that time Finland was being played by other nation.

Real World Finland (even if it was dominated by Sweden until 19th century) is not in a strict sense a "scandinavian" country and is cultural, linguistic and racial more close to Estonia than to Norway. Finland, as well as Estonia and Latvia, were part of the Swedish empire before to be part of the Russian empire.

I'm not consider NATO as the only possible "umbrela" because of two things:
- The best way to strenghten a nation is not to put your troops on it (the american way) but to help the development of that nation. In that sense, for example, the European Union represent almost 80% of the whole external investment in Estonia (Sweden is 26%) and during the 2014-2020 period the European Union will allocate Cohesion Funds to Estonia (1123 Millions euros), Latvia (1412 Million euros) and Lithuania (2145 Million euros). In my opinión, being members of EU is much more beneficial for baltic people than to be members of NATO.
- Without the pressure from USA and UK to avoid the creation of an European Army, EU would be perfectly capable to protect the baltic states.

==> In Alt Verse the UK is not a pupet nation serving the american interest as it is in RL and the European Union is not developed in game so, why dont a strong economic and military Baltic Union could have been the place to live for the baltic republics?

I think that there are enought reasons to support the integration of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to a potencial unión of the nordic countries. Nevertheless, I dont need them to develop my nation in Alt Verse and, of course, thinking in any kind of national matter is easier to integrate Finland than the Baltic states. That is the why I renounce to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and I will ask for Finland.

I will need a couple of days to change the wiki to the new nation that will be called "Kalmar Union" to honor the 15th century one.
Well I was going to bring up another thing until I read the last paragraph.

At this point, I see no real reason to continue the discussion as you have said that all the major issues I had will be addressed.

I'll reserve my final judgement until I see the updated wiki page, but from what I gather you'll probably not have any more issues from me.

Oh, and I have no objections to you taking Finland to make up for the loss of the Baltic States. Dunno about the others, but I don't have any objections.
I have been working hard fixing and changing all the old stuff from Baltic Union to Kalmar Union. There are still things to change (specially those related to companies) and I plan to continue developing new wiki articles but I think there is a good wiki base to start roleplaying.

If you are agree, I would like you to put Kalmar Union in the list of nations and the map.

Could I edit the League of Nations in order to include Kalmar Union?
You can add them as a member, but not one with veto power :P. I'll update the map now, as the page looks fine.
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BIPU
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Zabuza825
April 1, 2015, 7:14 am
UnitedRepublic02
March 31, 2015, 10:51 pm
Second German Empire (Germany)

  • (not yet created due to awaiting approval)
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Germany, Luxembourg, Kaliningrad Oblast, Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, Warminsko-Mazurskie, northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie, and southern sections of Opolskie
  • Why you want to join:
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: (Y/N)
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: (Y/N)
  • Other: Two years after the reunification of Germany, a sense of patriotism rooted itself within the German people. It became welcomed within Germany as it had been frowned upon since her defeat in 1945 but was soon seen again in the fatherland. However, the Germans felt something was missing but could be revived; the Kaiserreich. With the rise of socialism in Europe with Westland still surviving since the end of the Cold War, and Britannia new in the game, the Germans decided to restore the Hohenzollern throne as the monarchy was a symbol of pride, power, and unity. Prince Georg Friedrich was reinstated as Emperor Frederick IV (Kaiser Friedrich IV) and the imperial flag flew over Berlin on April 11, 1994 following the signing of the Hohenzollern Treaty in Berlin.

    In 1995, a deal was brokered within the European Parliament and the United Nations with Germany's demands for former German lands in Poland, Russia, and Gaul. The deal settled the cession of the Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia) and the Polish territories of Lubuskie, Dolnoslaski, Zachodnio-Pomorskie, Pomorski, and Warminsko-Mazurskie, as well as northern sections of Wielkoposki and Kujawsko-Pomorskie and the southern section of Opolskie to Germany under the Zurich Agreement, however no territorial cessions from Gaul to Germany were made.

    Today, Germany remains as one of the most powerful and influential nations in Europe.

    (more to be continued)
First off - this wouldn't be the Second German Empire. That already existed. The Second German Empire was the German Empire or Deutsches Reich as it's called in German. The Third "Empire" was Nazi Germany (it is known as the "Third Reich" after all). At this point, you probably are wondering what the First German Empire was. The first empire would be the Heiliges Römisches Reich, better known in English as the Holy Roman Empire (despite the fact that it wasn't holy, wasn't roman, and wasn't an empire).

Now to my main point

As much as I desperately want to support this (I really would be interested in a Germany player, not to mention that I've always been fascinated by the German Empire), there are a whole slew of issues that need to be addressed.

First of all, there is a reason why the territories Germany had to cede were not returned to Germany, in spite of the fact that West Germany continued to claim them up until German Reunification.

It's simple - after World War 2 all Germans in those areas were EXPELLED, forcibly evicted, told to GTFO. It didn't matter if the land was German and had been German for centuries, the Allies told all the Germans there to GTFO. This wasn't exclusive to Germany, it also happened to Japan too (in the Southwestern Kuril Islands, which had been Japanese land long before both world wars).

Was this a violation of human rights? Well, many human rights experts say it was. However, nations like Poland continue to adamantly deny this, claiming that the "transfer" (they use the term "transfer" rather than "expulsion" to describe the expulsion of Germans from those territories) was justified because of Nazi atrocities during WW2.

Since this event, in international law expulsion of a population is generally considered an illegal act. However, many nations maintain that the expulsion of Germans was legal because they claim it wasn't an "expulsion", it was a "population transfer". Many scholars worry however that this legal loophole essentially makes ethnic cleansing by means of "population transfer" (rather than outright genocide) legal under international law.

Now, really we only have three options to address this issue. None are very realistic, but here it is:

Option 1:
Human rights scholars decide that the massive expulsion of Germans from formerly-German territory (note I state FORMERLY GERMAN TERRITORY, THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE NAZI-OCCUPIED TERRITORY) would constitute a grave violation of human rights. and thus declares it illegal, stopping the transfer.

The problem - I find it VERY VERY hard to believe that the USSR would allow such a ruling to come out, and even if it did they probably wouldn't give a shit.

Option 2:
After the fall of communism, Germans flood back into the former territories. Nations recognize the human rights abuse that the expulsion was and return some territory to Germany.

The problem - I find it VERY VERY hard to believe that Russia would agree to this, not to mention that by this time the majority population in those formerly-German areas would be Poles or Russians or whatever else, which makes me highly doubt that the governments would allow this to happen.

Option 3:
All of East Prussia is transferred to Poland (except for Memel, which is still transferred to then-Soviet controlled Lithuania), whith no other territorial changes to Germany after WW2. Expulsions happen as it did in real life, just not in as much places simply because there is less formerly German land to expell Germans from. The eastern parts (minus East Prussia) that stay in Germany become part of East Germany. Cold War goes on as we have it set up in Altverse.

In all honesty, this third option is probably the most realistic. It just requires an adjustment to the Allied plans for Germany after WW2.

The restoration of the monarchy part - while it is a stretch, it's not as much of a stretch as the land territory, so I'm willing to look past that.

SIDE NOTE:

I DO NOT SEE IT TO BE POSSIBLE FOR GERMANY TO GAIN THE TERRITORIES IT HAD BEFORE WW1 NO MATTER HOW FAR I STRETCH THINGS. I just don't think it can happen. For stuff about WW2, I can see a possible argument, but WW1? No, I don't see it happening. I bring this up because I'm not entirely sure what your territory would encompass, a map would help.
I would like to give you my opinion on this proposal because similar to Zabuza I'm excited with the idea of a Germany player and I have to say that a German monarchy could be a very interesting neighbor for my Kalmar Union.

In my opinion, most of the drawbacks we can put to your proposal are based on the fact that there is nobody playing Russia (Soviet, Imperial,...) Russia does not exist in AltVerse as played nation and this could make us thinking that Russia doesnt exist, but even after the collapse of Soviet Union Russia would never allowed the lost of Kaliningrad and the rebuild of the whole Reich, and I have to say that neither Russia nor any other nation.

I see a single scenario in which a territorial increase of Germany eastward could be feasible. If Russia (Soviet or not) had managed to reconstruct important part of his power after the collapse of the USSR and maintained an expansionary policy (not necessarily military conquest) to the west, in that scenario, a social movement pro-integration in a hypothetical new German empire would be possible from countries such as Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

The possibility of a player in Germany reaffirms my intention to do something with Russia. The fact that Germany can become an empire makes me abandon the idea of Imperial Russia and retake the idea of a Soviet Russia after the Soviet Union.
Si vis pacen, para bellum.
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UnitedRepublic02
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Here's a map I made last night.
Posted Image
Red lines signify national borders that were removed due to the agreement.

Also, on a side note, I remember hearing somewhere that after the fall of the USSR, there were talks about returning the Kaliningrad Oblast to the Germans, however these plans were never put into motion.
Edited by UnitedRepublic02, April 1, 2015, 10:59 am.
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Dog of War
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UnitedRepublic02
April 1, 2015, 10:54 am
Here's a map I made last night.
Posted Image
Red lines signify national borders that were removed due to the agreement.

Also, on a side note, I remember hearing somewhere that after the fall of the USSR, there were talks about returning the Kaliningrad Oblast to the Germans, however these plans were never put into motion.
I would still hesitate to let Germany have any territory east of the Polish corridor. Bear in mind as well that the Poles would react very harshly to this, and would never agree to losing territory especially after 1989 in which Poland was finally free of dominating foreign influence. As for the Kaliningrad Oblast, I would need to see a source on that first. I think someone roleplaying as Germany would be interesting, so I'm not ruling this idea out, but just think that annexing too much new territory is a tad redundant.
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