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Topic Started: December 14, 2014, 10:36 pm (5,087 Views)
JustinVuong
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Before your country can officially take part in the Altverse community, you must first go through the application process. Before you apply, make sure to read the Rules and the official page. In addition, you must provide a link to the main article of the country you plan to be using. Although strongly encouraged but not required, the article should be of decent length that provides sufficient information about the country. Be prepared to make the necessary changes to your country before it can be deemed a part of Altverse. Under no circumstance may you add your nation, claim your nation is part of, or otherwise insert information that may give the impression that your country is in any shape or form connected to Altverse and/or its material until you have been given explicit approval from the community consensus/moderator.

Code:
 
[center][b]Your Country Name[/b][/center]
[list]
[*][b][url=http://www.conworld.wikia.com/wiki/Your_Country_Name]Link[/url][/b]
[*][b]Real World Countries and Land Claimed[/b]:
[*][b]Why you want to join[/b]:
[*][b]Have you read everything concerning Altverse?[/b]: (Y/N)
[*][b]Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?[/b]: (Y/N)
[*][b]Other[/b]: Your additional comments here.
[/list]


Example
Kingdom of Sierra

  • Link
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: California, Nevada, Arizona, Baja California, Baja California Sur, Sonora, Hawaiian Islands, American Samoa, Easter Island, Kiribati
  • Why you want to join: I really enjoy collaborating with others and I want to have fun.
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
  • Other: This is just an example but I'd like to point out that you can also provide links to other important pages related to your country to enhance understanding. Links to the government page, flags, or military are great.
Edited by JustinVuong, January 3, 2015, 6:49 pm.
| Kingdom of Sierra (main) | Mexican Social Republic | Great Korean Empire | Republic of Vietnam |
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Dog of War
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BIPU
April 4, 2015, 5:44 am
Zabuza825
April 3, 2015, 6:46 pm


  • Eastern Bloc: You seem to not understand the whole reason why the Eastern Bloc collapsed. It collapsed becaus the people weren't happy with their situation at the time and took it out on their government, many of which were corrupt and ineffective. After the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, some nations moved away from Russia, like Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Other nations, like Belarus and Turkmenistan, have remained firm allies of Russia (though in Turkmenistan's case, they've also made sure to stay neutral with the US). I JUST DON'T SEE IT BEING POSSIBLE FOR THE BALTIC STATES. Unlike what you seem to believe, they did NOT gain independence through US intervention, it was decades of being part of a nation THAT THEY NEVER WANTED TO BE PART OF TO BEGIN WITH that built up over time and finally exploded near the end of the Cold War. THEY LEFT THE USSR BECAUSE THEY NEVER WANTED TO BE PART OF THE USSR. The so-called "elections" that turned out results in favor of joining the USSR was rigged by the puppet-governments that Stalin had set up in the area after he invaded them. The USSR FORCED the Baltic States to Join them when they invaded and essentially conquered them. This left a huge sentiment against Russia after the Cold War, and is the entire reason why they did things like join the EU and NATO.
  • Ukraine: I also don't see how we can change Ukraine to make it pro-Russia. This isn't because of IRL political reasons, certainly if we went back to things like the 1990's and changed how history went then we might be able to make it pro-Russia. It's more because we have the Crimea dispute playing a part in the Second Cold War.
  • Former-Soviet nations gaining independence: The fact of the matter is, most of those nations that left the USSR in the years at the end of the Cold War didn't have too much support from the US. The ability to secede from the USSR was in fact written into the Constitution of the Soviet Union (Section III, Chapter 8, Article 72). Nations like Turkmenistan (note that I'm not including Eastern European nations and am more focusing on Central Asian nations here) didn't leave because the US wanted them to leave, in fact their leaders were perfectly content with being in the USSR, it was more due to rising nationalism in their own nations that they decided "well, we don't want to risk a revolt, so we'll invoke Article 72". These are the very same nations that have since maintained close relations with Russia. Danguk could very easily fall into this category.
  • Mexico: You'll need to talk to Justin about that. I've been asking for a logical explanation as to why a Russia that even IRL has huge slews of anti-west propaganda calling the west "fascist" could possibly be friends with an openly-fascist nation since I joined quite a while ago, and I've gotten exactly zero answers.
*Maybe I dont understand, but what I dont understand is how Hollywood films tell the history. Are you really telling that a médium soviet citizen had lower living standards than what they had in the 90's and even today? A soviet worker had 7 dayly hours of work, a free house, one of the best education system for his children, a good health service and 15 days a year of paid hollydays in the Black Sea. Free museums, free music concerts, free entertaiment, etc. I'm not a communist supporter and communist is far from my thoughts but I'm not going to accept the yankee history as the Bible becouse whay yankee capitalist brought to Russia was poverty and misery for the majority of the population. And now, when Russia is starting to grow and recovering its position they invent and finance a war (like they did in Afganistán creating and funding Al Qaeda or what they did in Siria creating and funding ISIS).
**Do you really think that CIA had nothing to see in the fall of Soviet Unión?
**I agree with you in what you say about the Baltic Republics. Yes, they are not Russia (and I dont want it).
**Ukarine is not pro-Russia? The Eastern half of Ukraina was Russia until the 70s in the Kruschev era. Population are Russian and I remember you that in the last REAL elections in Ukrania the government was totally PRO-RUSSIA. And then, the CIA again foundend nazi parties in Ukraina to start the famous "Maidan" and to carry a coup against the legitimate government. So, without the intervention of CIA, Ukraina could be perfectly pro-Russia.
**Crimea is Russia. Crimea is Russia from the times when Russians died for Crimea when the western nations (England specially) were allied with the Otomans and atacked Crimea. Crimea is a CORE part of Russia. There is no dispute.
***Finally, think that this is "Alt Verse", so thinks here have not to be like IRL. In "Altverse" the USA does not have an Europe full op Pupet states what they have IRL. In "AltVerse" Britannia, Kalmar Unión, and of course the Germanic IMperium has their own political views and maybe they could have different views over Russia than the USA has. We play the fall of Soviet Unión, but after than we can build a new history for Eastern Europe. Maybe people of Eastern Europe changed their governments after the fall of Soviet Unión but at the end of the 90s, a strong Russia could be able to atrack then again. In Alt Verse the history of Europe from the 90s is going very far from IRL, so we could be abe to accept a new Russian bloc in Eastern Europe.
Let me get some things off of my chest-

1) The Eastern Bloc was not just the USSR, It also included East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and to a much lesser extent Albania and Yugoslavia. When I refer to the Eastern Bloc I mean those nations as well, with my original point being that most if not all of those nations will succumb to the revolutions of 1989. The reason for these revolutions were many, but here are a few-
*Poland - the martial law was really unpopular and the Polish people were sick of being persecuted for things like their religion, something that many Poles view as part of their culture.
*East Germany - The SED and the Stasi were never popular because they essentially ran east Germans lives. The harsh treatment of those who tried to get into West Germany was also hated as was the tight migration laws as well as economic failure.
*Hungary - Socialist rule in Hungary was never popular especially after the aggressive Soviet action in the Hungarian Revolution.
*Czechoslovakia - The "normalisation" period after the Prague Spring was hated by most Czechoslovaks.
*Romania - The most obvious one. People were dirt poor, oppression was extremely harsh even by Eastern Bloc standards, the economy was dying fast, and Ceaușescu was busy building himself a new palace.
*Bulgaria - Economic stagnation ad rampant corruption really was at play here.
*Albania - Hoxha's regime has been compared with Kim Il-Sung's. 'Nuff said really.
*Yugoslavia - Nationalist sentiment was so high it resulted in genocide and ethnic cleansing.
In all cases the bloc collapsed because the economies were stagnating, oppression was seen as unnecessary and Gorbachev's reforms were either being implemented or the people wanted them to be implemented in their own countries. Post-communist feelings have been mixed - Polish people for example still view their communist days with disdain as do Baltic peoples. As well as this people couldn't predict the future - yes life may have been better under socialist rule but in 1989-1991 no one knew that. As a comparison Iranians may prefer the Shah now to the Islamic Republic but in 1979 they were unhappy with his rule. The USSR's collapse too was mostly due to economic failure, rising nationalism and divided politics. If the USSR had survived (probably only in Russia as the other states would get independence) then in the 1990's it would probably try and balance its economy and do more inwards looking policies (similar to China) then expand.
2) The Baltic States should be independent from nationalism.
3) Ukraine by former Soviet states standards is pretty pro-Russian, especially under President Yanukovych. As for Crimea being part of Russia - just have Brezhnev transfer it over to the RFSSR or something. Former Soviet states have plenty of enclaves (Kalingard and Nakhchivan are good examples). You point to Turkmenistan being an ally to Russia, but it is as much as a ally to the US (moreso then Uzbekistan and Tajikistan). CIA though have not been stupid enough to interfere with Ukraine, where the situation is basically the Ukrainian speaking population is a bit more pro-Europe (not US) and the eastern bit a bit more pro Russian.
4) Europe isn't a pawn of the US. The only state that is really can be considered closely allied with the US is the UK (and thats a trend with other English speaking countries like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand), as well as Poland (because the US have not sought to divide up Poland like Germany and Russia have) and Albania (probably stemming from he fact their Russian supported regime was as lovely as the DPRK's) but in contrast Germany and especially France have always been wary of the US (and as we know the EU is essentially run by France and Germany). The end of the Cold War meant that Europe no longer needed American protection so they have distancing themselves away from the US for years. In Altverse they may look to the US for security interests but probably won't support US action abroad beyond that.

Whilst I don't think Eastern Europe should be socialist per-say, and most would probably join the EU and NATO. Russia would correctly identify Africa and Asia as better places to prop up governments in allegiance to China as well as accept help from SOME Slavic nations (Serbia, Bulgaria and Belarus). Remember the rules say that

"Anyone who desires to collaborate with an existing nation of the Altverse must join the Altverse community and ensure that their nation complies with the Altverse history. If the two's histories are incompatible, the person expressing interest must agree to modify their nation's history where ever, and whenever necessary."

Most Altverse nations agree that in the 1990's east Europe somewhat became friendly to the EU and NATO and moved away from Russia. I don't mind the RFSSR being in Altverse but it will likely be isolated in the 1990's and only recently will be able to project its power (possibly the first sign of which being Crimea in 2014).
Edited by Dog of War, April 4, 2015, 11:31 am.
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Zabuza825

BIPU
April 4, 2015, 5:44 am
*Maybe I dont understand, but what I dont understand is how Hollywood films tell the history. Are you really telling that a médium soviet citizen had lower living standards than what they had in the 90's and even today? A soviet worker had 7 dayly hours of work, a free house, one of the best education system for his children, a good health service and 15 days a year of paid hollydays in the Black Sea. Free museums, free music concerts, free entertaiment, etc. I'm not a communist supporter and communist is far from my thoughts but I'm not going to accept the yankee history as the Bible becouse whay yankee capitalist brought to Russia was poverty and misery for the majority of the population. And now, when Russia is starting to grow and recovering its position they invent and finance a war (like they did in Afganistán creating and funding Al Qaeda or what they did in Siria creating and funding ISIS).
**Do you really think that CIA had nothing to see in the fall of Soviet Unión?
**I agree with you in what you say about the Baltic Republics. Yes, they are not Russia (and I dont want it).
**Ukarine is not pro-Russia? The Eastern half of Ukraina was Russia until the 70s in the Kruschev era. Population are Russian and I remember you that in the last REAL elections in Ukrania the government was totally PRO-RUSSIA. And then, the CIA again foundend nazi parties in Ukraina to start the famous "Maidan" and to carry a coup against the legitimate government. So, without the intervention of CIA, Ukraina could be perfectly pro-Russia.
**Crimea is Russia. Crimea is Russia from the times when Russians died for Crimea when the western nations (England specially) were allied with the Otomans and atacked Crimea. Crimea is a CORE part of Russia. There is no dispute.
***Finally, think that this is "Alt Verse", so thinks here have not to be like IRL. In "Altverse" the USA does not have an Europe full op Pupet states what they have IRL. In "AltVerse" Britannia, Kalmar Unión, and of course the Germanic IMperium has their own political views and maybe they could have different views over Russia than the USA has. We play the fall of Soviet Unión, but after than we can build a new history for Eastern Europe. Maybe people of Eastern Europe changed their governments after the fall of Soviet Unión but at the end of the 90s, a strong Russia could be able to atrack then again. In Alt Verse the history of Europe from the 90s is going very far from IRL, so we could be abe to accept a new Russian bloc in Eastern Europe.
You know what, I was in the process of writing up a long and convoluted argument against you when I realized something.

Being on Conworlds, this isn't fun for me anymore. The whole slew of political arguments that come up from being here is draining me of both my creativity and my energy.

I'm tired of all these arguments, and you obviously aren't going to listen to anything that I say. You seem to be all up in your own world, brainwashed by Russian propaganda about a whole slew of different issues.

So you know what, fuck it.

I'll summarize what I was about to say and then probably take a long break from RP'ing while I rethink my role in the Conworlds community.

Essentially I was going to point out a whole slew of historical innacuracies that you have, ranging from your view about the reason why eastern Ukraine wants closer relations with Russia (hint, it has to do with Stalin's policies towards Ukraine), to your assertation that Crimea is a core part of Russia (it's not Russia, but it's not Ukraine either, it should be the land of the Crimean Tatars). Europe isn't a puppet of the US IRL (just do a simple google search and you should find a whole slew of times when Europe actually went against what the USA wanted). None of these arguments really help or hurt you in your quest for a reborn Eastern Bloc, but expect opposition from Westland and Britannia in trying to reborn it (they have their own interests and ideologies after all) and maybe Germany (I don't know what the guy plans to do with that nation, so he might oppose it, he might not, I don't know). I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA was involved in some of the falls of the USSR in some way - but that doesn't change the fact that some of the nations the CIA would have no reason to get involved in (seriously, why would the CIA care about Turkmenistan, or Uzbekistan, or Kazakhstan, or any of the Central Asian states? the worlds focus was and still is on Europe cuz Eurocentrism), nor does it change the fact that the CIA wouldn't have been able to maintain their change without some level of support from the people (just look at how things went with Latin America or Iran to see how CIA-backed coups there ended, it ended in short-term allies but in the long term making those nations hate the USA).

I'm not brainwashed by Hollywood propaganda, if I was brainwashed I wouldn't be firmly opposed to nuclear bombs, nor would I make the claim that Hiroshima and Nagasaki constituted war crimes (in case you haven't noticed, the American public and entertainment industry in general tends to have a more positive view on those bombings), and some of the things I make would make some people yell at me for being a Japanese ultranationalist (I'm not one, in fact some of what I say a real Japanese ultranationalist would literally want to murder me for saying), nor would I admit that there are parts of the world that hate America, nor would I admit that some of the reasons why those nations hate America are very very good reasons (Hollywood tends to take the "AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" approach to that). These are all beliefs that some people would want to strangle me for, so no I'm not brainwashed by Hollywood propaganda.

Finally I'd like to thank you for making me realize that I'm not enjoying Conworlds in the way that I once did.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political debate, but I can see that it's already gone in that direction. I don't want to make it head any more in that direction. I'll leave the whole decision up to people like DogofWar and Justin and not really get involved in this any more. It's not worth my time nor is it worth the effort.

Please don't respond to this post, but if you do don't expect me to give you any answer.
Edited by Zabuza825, April 4, 2015, 7:40 am.
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BIPU
Member Avatar

Zabuza825
April 4, 2015, 7:33 am
BIPU
April 4, 2015, 5:44 am
*Maybe I dont understand, but what I dont understand is how Hollywood films tell the history. Are you really telling that a médium soviet citizen had lower living standards than what they had in the 90's and even today? A soviet worker had 7 dayly hours of work, a free house, one of the best education system for his children, a good health service and 15 days a year of paid hollydays in the Black Sea. Free museums, free music concerts, free entertaiment, etc. I'm not a communist supporter and communist is far from my thoughts but I'm not going to accept the yankee history as the Bible becouse whay yankee capitalist brought to Russia was poverty and misery for the majority of the population. And now, when Russia is starting to grow and recovering its position they invent and finance a war (like they did in Afganistán creating and funding Al Qaeda or what they did in Siria creating and funding ISIS).
**Do you really think that CIA had nothing to see in the fall of Soviet Unión?
**I agree with you in what you say about the Baltic Republics. Yes, they are not Russia (and I dont want it).
**Ukarine is not pro-Russia? The Eastern half of Ukraina was Russia until the 70s in the Kruschev era. Population are Russian and I remember you that in the last REAL elections in Ukrania the government was totally PRO-RUSSIA. And then, the CIA again foundend nazi parties in Ukraina to start the famous "Maidan" and to carry a coup against the legitimate government. So, without the intervention of CIA, Ukraina could be perfectly pro-Russia.
**Crimea is Russia. Crimea is Russia from the times when Russians died for Crimea when the western nations (England specially) were allied with the Otomans and atacked Crimea. Crimea is a CORE part of Russia. There is no dispute.
***Finally, think that this is "Alt Verse", so thinks here have not to be like IRL. In "Altverse" the USA does not have an Europe full op Pupet states what they have IRL. In "AltVerse" Britannia, Kalmar Unión, and of course the Germanic IMperium has their own political views and maybe they could have different views over Russia than the USA has. We play the fall of Soviet Unión, but after than we can build a new history for Eastern Europe. Maybe people of Eastern Europe changed their governments after the fall of Soviet Unión but at the end of the 90s, a strong Russia could be able to atrack then again. In Alt Verse the history of Europe from the 90s is going very far from IRL, so we could be abe to accept a new Russian bloc in Eastern Europe.
You know what, I was in the process of writing up a long and convoluted argument against you when I realized something.

Being on Conworlds, this isn't fun for me anymore. The whole slew of political arguments that come up from being here is draining me of both my creativity and my energy.

I'm tired of all these arguments, and you obviously aren't going to listen to anything that I say. You seem to be all up in your own world, brainwashed by Russian propaganda about a whole slew of different issues.

So you know what, fuck it.

I'll summarize what I was about to say and then probably take a long break from RP'ing while I rethink my role in the Conworlds community.

Essentially I was going to point out a whole slew of historical innacuracies that you have, ranging from your view about the reason why eastern Ukraine wants closer relations with Russia (hint, it has to do with Stalin's policies towards Ukraine), to your assertation that Crimea is a core part of Russia (it's not Russia, but it's not Ukraine either, it should be the land of the Crimean Tatars). Europe isn't a puppet of the US IRL (just do a simple google search and you should find a whole slew of times when Europe actually went against what the USA wanted). None of these arguments really help or hurt you in your quest for a reborn Eastern Bloc, but expect opposition from Westland and Britannia in trying to reborn it (they have their own interests and ideologies after all) and maybe Germany (I don't know what the guy plans to do with that nation, so he might oppose it, he might not, I don't know). I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA was involved in some of the falls of the USSR in some way - but that doesn't change the fact that some of the nations the CIA would have no reason to get involved in (seriously, why would the CIA care about Turkmenistan, or Uzbekistan, or Kazakhstan, or any of the Central Asian states? the worlds focus was and still is on Europe cuz Eurocentrism), nor does it change the fact that the CIA wouldn't have been able to maintain their change without some level of support from the people (just look at how things went with Latin America or Iran to see how CIA-backed coups there ended, it ended in short-term allies but in the long term making those nations hate the USA).

I'm not brainwashed by Hollywood propaganda, if I was brainwashed I wouldn't be firmly opposed to nuclear bombs, nor would I make the claim that Hiroshima and Nagasaki constituted war crimes (in case you haven't noticed, the American public and entertainment industry in general tends to have a more positive view on those bombings), and some of the things I make would make some people yell at me for being a Japanese ultranationalist (I'm not one, in fact some of what I say a real Japanese ultranationalist would literally want to murder me for saying), nor would I admit that there are parts of the world that hate America, nor would I admit that some of the reasons why those nations hate America are very very good reasons (Hollywood tends to take the "AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" approach to that). These are all beliefs that some people would want to strangle me for, so no I'm not brainwashed by Hollywood propaganda.

Finally I'd like to thank you for making me realize that I'm not enjoying Conworlds in the way that I once did.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political debate, but I can see that it's already gone in that direction. I don't want to make it head any more in that direction. I'll leave the whole decision up to people like DogofWar and Justin and not really get involved in this any more. It's not worth my time nor is it worth the effort.

Please don't respond to this post, but if you do don't expect me to give you any answer.
I've been thinking whether to answer, and finally I decided to respond it because I can and because I want. And I hope that eventually reconsider your stance and decide to answer, because I think the only thing we are doing is to discuss and debate is healthy and is what distinguishes people.

If we debate of conworlding and leave behind the magic and fiction is impossible not finish debating politics. In any case, I see no problem in discussing politics.

In my previous answer I have tried to answer your arguments with mine. Nothing else. You said that I do not understand what really happened during the fall of the USSR and what I've done is try to explain that I know it well. First because I have always tried to know the unofficial version and, most importantly, because my wife is the daughter of a Russian marriage. I have been several times visiting family and friends and I can assure you firsthand that most Russian citizens who lived in the USSR think their standard of living was better in the 70s and 80s than it was in the 90s and in many cases still today.

The Disney tale that everything in the USSR was terrible and that everyone dreamed of being able to eat McDonalds and drink Coca Cola is not able to pass a minimum of sociopolitical rigor in the analysis.

Regarding to Eastern bloc countries, it is clear that after the collapse of the USSR were "free" to choose and it was obvious which way would take. However, the fact that the USSR ceased to send cheap oil also had much to do. Doing the same analysis, I assure you a citizen of Hungary and Poland lived much better in Soviet times tan all Hungarian or Polish fathers crowded into barracks to pick strawberries in southern Spain to earn a misery.And finally, I encourage you to go a Eastern germany city with an unemployment triple of a similar western one and tell the people thay life today is better than in GDR times. Ask yourself why Europe is going towards political views very different to those reigning during last decades.

About Europe being a pupet nation of USA, I only have to say one thing. Some monts ago, all newspapers in Europe opened its editon with news about USA spying the dead of governments of France, Germany, Britain, etc. Did you know any consecuence of this? Do you think a nation not being a pupet supporting this? At least a mínimum diplomatic pressure!!! From WWII to nowdays, Europe is a pupet of Washington.

Now, about Crimea. Yes, Crimea was the land of the Tartars, and what? Arizona was the land of Native Americans and, despite that, no one would doubt that today Arizona is a core territory of the United States.

And finally, and I think more important, this is Alt Verse so things here dont have to do similar to IRL. We can explain a socialist republican England but we cant explain a communist russia after tye URSS. Are we getting mad?

I didn’t come here to disturb your peace, it is your game after all so there are your rules. What I did is try to argument my views and against that there are two ways. The first one is try to discuss and put your arguments and trying to find a consense and the second one is to say it is my game, my rules, don’t accept the discussion or exchange of ideas, to be angry and turn around.

I’m not here to tell anybody how to behave. However, if my presence here is a problem I will go quietly so you can live happily in your idyllic world where nobody questions your words.

Peace and good, brother.
Edited by BIPU, April 4, 2015, 1:42 pm.
Si vis pacen, para bellum.
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Dog of War
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BIPU
April 4, 2015, 1:40 pm
Zabuza825
April 4, 2015, 7:33 am
BIPU
April 4, 2015, 5:44 am
*Maybe I dont understand, but what I dont understand is how Hollywood films tell the history. Are you really telling that a médium soviet citizen had lower living standards than what they had in the 90's and even today? A soviet worker had 7 dayly hours of work, a free house, one of the best education system for his children, a good health service and 15 days a year of paid hollydays in the Black Sea. Free museums, free music concerts, free entertaiment, etc. I'm not a communist supporter and communist is far from my thoughts but I'm not going to accept the yankee history as the Bible becouse whay yankee capitalist brought to Russia was poverty and misery for the majority of the population. And now, when Russia is starting to grow and recovering its position they invent and finance a war (like they did in Afganistán creating and funding Al Qaeda or what they did in Siria creating and funding ISIS).
**Do you really think that CIA had nothing to see in the fall of Soviet Unión?
**I agree with you in what you say about the Baltic Republics. Yes, they are not Russia (and I dont want it).
**Ukarine is not pro-Russia? The Eastern half of Ukraina was Russia until the 70s in the Kruschev era. Population are Russian and I remember you that in the last REAL elections in Ukrania the government was totally PRO-RUSSIA. And then, the CIA again foundend nazi parties in Ukraina to start the famous "Maidan" and to carry a coup against the legitimate government. So, without the intervention of CIA, Ukraina could be perfectly pro-Russia.
**Crimea is Russia. Crimea is Russia from the times when Russians died for Crimea when the western nations (England specially) were allied with the Otomans and atacked Crimea. Crimea is a CORE part of Russia. There is no dispute.
***Finally, think that this is "Alt Verse", so thinks here have not to be like IRL. In "Altverse" the USA does not have an Europe full op Pupet states what they have IRL. In "AltVerse" Britannia, Kalmar Unión, and of course the Germanic IMperium has their own political views and maybe they could have different views over Russia than the USA has. We play the fall of Soviet Unión, but after than we can build a new history for Eastern Europe. Maybe people of Eastern Europe changed their governments after the fall of Soviet Unión but at the end of the 90s, a strong Russia could be able to atrack then again. In Alt Verse the history of Europe from the 90s is going very far from IRL, so we could be abe to accept a new Russian bloc in Eastern Europe.
You know what, I was in the process of writing up a long and convoluted argument against you when I realized something.

Being on Conworlds, this isn't fun for me anymore. The whole slew of political arguments that come up from being here is draining me of both my creativity and my energy.

I'm tired of all these arguments, and you obviously aren't going to listen to anything that I say. You seem to be all up in your own world, brainwashed by Russian propaganda about a whole slew of different issues.

So you know what, fuck it.

I'll summarize what I was about to say and then probably take a long break from RP'ing while I rethink my role in the Conworlds community.

Essentially I was going to point out a whole slew of historical innacuracies that you have, ranging from your view about the reason why eastern Ukraine wants closer relations with Russia (hint, it has to do with Stalin's policies towards Ukraine), to your assertation that Crimea is a core part of Russia (it's not Russia, but it's not Ukraine either, it should be the land of the Crimean Tatars). Europe isn't a puppet of the US IRL (just do a simple google search and you should find a whole slew of times when Europe actually went against what the USA wanted). None of these arguments really help or hurt you in your quest for a reborn Eastern Bloc, but expect opposition from Westland and Britannia in trying to reborn it (they have their own interests and ideologies after all) and maybe Germany (I don't know what the guy plans to do with that nation, so he might oppose it, he might not, I don't know). I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA was involved in some of the falls of the USSR in some way - but that doesn't change the fact that some of the nations the CIA would have no reason to get involved in (seriously, why would the CIA care about Turkmenistan, or Uzbekistan, or Kazakhstan, or any of the Central Asian states? the worlds focus was and still is on Europe cuz Eurocentrism), nor does it change the fact that the CIA wouldn't have been able to maintain their change without some level of support from the people (just look at how things went with Latin America or Iran to see how CIA-backed coups there ended, it ended in short-term allies but in the long term making those nations hate the USA).

I'm not brainwashed by Hollywood propaganda, if I was brainwashed I wouldn't be firmly opposed to nuclear bombs, nor would I make the claim that Hiroshima and Nagasaki constituted war crimes (in case you haven't noticed, the American public and entertainment industry in general tends to have a more positive view on those bombings), and some of the things I make would make some people yell at me for being a Japanese ultranationalist (I'm not one, in fact some of what I say a real Japanese ultranationalist would literally want to murder me for saying), nor would I admit that there are parts of the world that hate America, nor would I admit that some of the reasons why those nations hate America are very very good reasons (Hollywood tends to take the "AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" approach to that). These are all beliefs that some people would want to strangle me for, so no I'm not brainwashed by Hollywood propaganda.

Finally I'd like to thank you for making me realize that I'm not enjoying Conworlds in the way that I once did.

I wasn't expecting this to turn into a political debate, but I can see that it's already gone in that direction. I don't want to make it head any more in that direction. I'll leave the whole decision up to people like DogofWar and Justin and not really get involved in this any more. It's not worth my time nor is it worth the effort.

Please don't respond to this post, but if you do don't expect me to give you any answer.
I've been thinking whether to answer, and finally I decided to respond it because I can and because I want. And I hope that eventually reconsider your stance and decide to answer, because I think the only thing we are doing is to discuss and debate is healthy and is what distinguishes people.

If we debate of conworlding and leave behind the magic and fiction is impossible not finish debating politics. In any case, I see no problem in discussing politics.

In my previous answer I have tried to answer your arguments with mine. Nothing else. You said that I do not understand what really happened during the fall of the USSR and what I've done is try to explain that I know it well. First because I have always tried to know the unofficial version and, most importantly, because my wife is the daughter of a Russian marriage. I have been several times visiting family and friends and I can assure you firsthand that most Russian citizens who lived in the USSR think their standard of living was better in the 70s and 80s than it was in the 90s and in many cases still today.

The Disney tale that everything in the USSR was terrible and that everyone dreamed of being able to eat McDonalds and drink Coca Cola is not able to pass a minimum of sociopolitical rigor in the analysis.

Regarding to Eastern bloc countries, it is clear that after the collapse of the USSR were "free" to choose and it was obvious which way would take. However, the fact that the USSR ceased to send cheap oil also had much to do. Doing the same analysis, I assure you a citizen of Hungary and Poland lived much better in Soviet times tan all Hungarian or Polish fathers crowded into barracks to pick strawberries in southern Spain to earn a misery.And finally, I encourage you to go a Eastern germany city with an unemployment triple of a similar western one and tell the people thay life today is better than in GDR times. Ask yourself why Europe is going towards political views very different to those reigning during last decades.

About Europe being a pupet nation of USA, I only have to say one thing. Some monts ago, all newspapers in Europe opened its editon with news about USA spying the dead of governments of France, Germany, Britain, etc. Did you know any consecuence of this? Do you think a nation not being a pupet supporting this? At least a mínimum diplomatic pressure!!! From WWII to nowdays, Europe is a pupet of Washington.

Now, about Crimea. Yes, Crimea was the land of the Tartars, and what? Arizona was the land of Native Americans and, despite that, no one would doubt that today Arizona is a core territory of the United States.

And finally, and I think more important, this is Alt Verse so things here dont have to do similar to IRL. We can explain a socialist republican England but we cant explain a communist russia after tye URSS. Are we getting mad?

I didn’t come here to disturb your peace, it is your game after all so there are your rules. What I did is try to argument my views and against that there are two ways. The first one is try to discuss and put your arguments and trying to find a consense and the second one is to say it is my game, my rules, don’t accept the discussion or exchange of ideas, to be angry and turn around.

I’m not here to tell anybody how to behave. However, if my presence here is a problem I will go quietly so you can live happily in your idyllic world where nobody questions your words.

Peace and good, brother.
I would just like to reiterate my point. Just because living standards in the Eastern Bloc are worse today then they were in 1989 doesn't meant that the people were not unhappy in 1989. I gave the example of Iran, but another excellent one is Zimbabwe/Rhodesia - (back and white) people mostly pine for the days of not Mugabe (i.e white minority rule) but at the time they (mostly meaning blacks here) were understandably not happy with Ian Smith's government. Most in the Eastern Bloc do not want the authoritarianism/oppression back but do wish for the social services provided by a socialist economy. Hungarians and Poles hated socialism the most (mostly for cultural reasons - both are much more religious then say Slovakia) and others like Croats and Serbs weren't too fond of living together under socialism. Others like Bulgarians and East Germans seem to forget the oppression they rioted against and remember the positive aspects of socialism. Czechs and Slovaks don't like communism mainly because of the Warsaw Pact invasion and the suppression of the widely, widely popular Prague Spring. The Baltic states never really wanted to be part of the USSR, and Ukraine has traditionally been a divided nation.

I recommend that we compromise on some issues. For Crimea, its probably best to have it as either an enclave of Russia that Brezhnev transferred authority to the RFSSR in the 1970's or have it in the same situation it is in now. For the Eastern Bloc, it would most likely still collapse although the RFSSR may influence elections in its closest allies (Ukraine, Serbia, and Bulgaria are the obvious ones) so that socialist parties win and they end up similar to how Belarus is today (not socialist....officially) as well as expand interest into Africa and Asia. For the 1990's, my advice would be that the RFSSR should focus on reforming the mismanaged economy of the 1980's with economic reform similar to what happened in Hungary happening in Russia, and it only recovers fully in the past five years. These compromises tick all of the essential boxes and hopefully addresses most of the major issues.
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UnitedRepublic02
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If there is a Soviet Russia (which I don't support because a smaller USSR would not support a fascist Mexico), Germany would be VERY against a second Eastern Bloc, which I still don't really understand how it would come back.

Also, I'm getting pretty frustrated because it hasn't been very clear that Germany is canon to Altverse and that other nations submitted after me have gotten approved and included to Altverse. Justin said he'd support it, but no one else has been very clear as if they support it or not.

I might create a far-right Russia soon, but I'm having a difficult time coming up with a name for it and I'm STILL waiting for a "go ahead" on Germany.
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Dog of War
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UnitedRepublic02
April 4, 2015, 2:49 pm
If there is a Soviet Russia (which I don't support because a smaller USSR would not support a fascist Mexico), Germany would be VERY against a second Eastern Bloc, which I still don't really understand how it would come back.

Also, I'm getting pretty frustrated because it hasn't been very clear that Germany is canon to Altverse and that other nations submitted after me have gotten approved and included to Altverse. Justin said he'd support it, but no one else has been very clear as if they support it or not.

I might create a far-right Russia soon, but I'm having a difficult time coming up with a name for it and I'm STILL waiting for a "go ahead" on Germany.
I will say my reservation with Germany is over Kalingard - I don't think Germany should have it. Once that is cleared up I'll give the thumbs up and stck it on the map.

tbh when it comes to approval its mainly Justin, me and Zab who handle them.
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UnitedRepublic02
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Since Kaliningrad seems to be the main point of disputes and that more people are against a German Konigsberg/East Prussia than a Russian Kaliningrad Oblast, then Kaliningrad will remain Russian.
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Dog of War
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UnitedRepublic02
April 4, 2015, 3:31 pm
Since Kaliningrad seems to be the main point of disputes and that more people are against a German Konigsberg/East Prussia than a Russian Kaliningrad Oblast, then Kaliningrad will remain Russian.
In that case I will support Germany, and add it to the map. Welcome aboard.

Oh, and it wouldn't be the Prussian Democratic Republic. Marx was pretty critical of Prussia so the East German regime was quick to tear down Prussian cultural artefacts. It would still be the German Democratic Republic (Deutsche Demokratische Republik or DDR)
Edited by Dog of War, April 4, 2015, 3:58 pm.
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Thank you very much. Also, is it alright if I can modify the Second Cold War to include Germany?
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Dog of War
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UnitedRepublic02
April 4, 2015, 3:56 pm
Thank you very much. Also, is it alright if I can modify the Second Cold War to include Germany?
Yeah, of course. Pick the side you want to join. If you have anything else to ask speak to me on here
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