|
Replies:
|
|
DanChan123
|
May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
Post #271
|
|
- Posts:
- 21
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #32
- Joined:
- May 26, 2015
|
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:47 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 11:15 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:10 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 7:35 am
- DanChan123
- May 26, 2015, 10:46 pm
http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/OiratNation: Kingdom of Oirat Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Crimean Peninsula, Adygea (Russian federal subject), Krasnodar Krai (Russian federal subject), Karachay-Cherkessia (Russian federal subject), Ingushetia (Russian federal subject), Chechnya (Russian federal subject), Dagestan (Russian federal subject), Stavropol Krai (Russian federal subject), Kalmykia (Russian federal subject), Astrkhan Oblast (Russian federal subject), Rostov Oblast (Russian federal subject), Volgograd Oblast (Russian federal subject), Voronezh Oblast (Russian federal subject). Why you want to join?: My first nation on Conworld Wiki and my new Wikia account (old one deleted). I’ve had similar experience previously on other wikis, such as the Althistory Wiki, Creative Sci Fi Wiki, Aressia Infinite Wiki, Basilicus, etc. before joining this one. It’ll be summer soon, and I got alot of time on my hands for this. Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y Other: Oirat is based on Kalmykia and the Kalmyk people, a real Central Asian people descended from the Oirats in Mongolia, whom travelled to the Volga Russia region, settling in 1630. Alternate history begins in 1856, where the 1856 Treaty of Paris (the one that ended the Crimean War between Russia and Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, Sardinia, in an attempt to stop Russian expansionism), was scrapped for the (fictional) Treaty of Sebastopol, which gave all of the territory taken by France/Britain in the war, including Crimea, to the Oirat, or Kalmyk ethnic majority in Southwest Russia, including other non-Russian minorities, so that they could start an independent state; the Kingdom of Oirat. To make secession realistic, in this alternate history, the Oirat people are not only much more culturally secular from Russian society, but are higher populated, and also unsatisfied with Russian treatment. Also, the Dörbet Sohor khan heritage survived in this alt-history. Furthermore, the Oirats would promise tariff-free access to Black Sea ports in Crimea, something the Russian Tsar would not allow.
I'm not sure how this nation could not have been a part of the Soviet Union. The USSR had full control of the Caucasus nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia) - Joseph Stalin himself was a Georgian. Soviet policy was to make sure all of the territory of the former Russian Empire was to be restored. That's why for example Romania, Poland Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany were kept as "independent" nations after WW2 but Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and Lithuania were annexed back into the USSR. The Baltic people especially really hated this, but couldn't do anything about it as they knew that a move towards succession would be treated brutally by the Soviets. The only way I could see Oirat not being part of the USSR is to reduce its territory (maybe just to Kalmykia, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, Astrakhan Oblast, and Volgograd Oblast) to enable Russia to share a land boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, and have it as being an independent nation from the 1800's (possibly a protectorate of Russia similar to Mongolia). Still, even in that scenario its likely that it would have been ruled by a puppet communist regime until 1989. From then you can have the monarchy back through popular support. btw, the Russian imperial/Soviet policy didn't give a damn if ethnic minorities were unsatisfied with Russian rule just as colonial policy from European empire didn't care - if they stroked up to much of a fuss they would be forcibly assimilated into Russian culture (a process nicknamed "Russification").
I agree with Dog of War. However, I don't think that it should have that much territory under it's control. I highly doubt that it could contain the territories where Russians are the majority, and have historically been so. Such as Rostov Oblast, Astrakhan Oblast, Volgograd Oblast (which happens to where I am from), and Voronezh Oblast. These places are 90%+ ethnic Russian. I don't think they would want to be part of Oirat and would probably want to instead be part of Russia. Now as for the other regions, like Dagestan, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia - those are more likely to be willing to be part of an independent state.
Well, I doubt Chechnya would be anything but its own probably Islamic influenced states
I think he'll have to modify the history and the territories his state controls. Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war.
Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead).
I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land.
|
|
|
| |
|
Alexander
|
May 27, 2015, 6:24 pm
Post #272
|
|
- Posts:
- 31
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #30
- Joined:
- Apr 2, 2015
|
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:47 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 11:15 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:10 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 7:35 am
- DanChan123
- May 26, 2015, 10:46 pm
http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/OiratNation: Kingdom of Oirat Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Crimean Peninsula, Adygea (Russian federal subject), Krasnodar Krai (Russian federal subject), Karachay-Cherkessia (Russian federal subject), Ingushetia (Russian federal subject), Chechnya (Russian federal subject), Dagestan (Russian federal subject), Stavropol Krai (Russian federal subject), Kalmykia (Russian federal subject), Astrkhan Oblast (Russian federal subject), Rostov Oblast (Russian federal subject), Volgograd Oblast (Russian federal subject), Voronezh Oblast (Russian federal subject). Why you want to join?: My first nation on Conworld Wiki and my new Wikia account (old one deleted). I’ve had similar experience previously on other wikis, such as the Althistory Wiki, Creative Sci Fi Wiki, Aressia Infinite Wiki, Basilicus, etc. before joining this one. It’ll be summer soon, and I got alot of time on my hands for this. Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y Other: Oirat is based on Kalmykia and the Kalmyk people, a real Central Asian people descended from the Oirats in Mongolia, whom travelled to the Volga Russia region, settling in 1630. Alternate history begins in 1856, where the 1856 Treaty of Paris (the one that ended the Crimean War between Russia and Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, Sardinia, in an attempt to stop Russian expansionism), was scrapped for the (fictional) Treaty of Sebastopol, which gave all of the territory taken by France/Britain in the war, including Crimea, to the Oirat, or Kalmyk ethnic majority in Southwest Russia, including other non-Russian minorities, so that they could start an independent state; the Kingdom of Oirat. To make secession realistic, in this alternate history, the Oirat people are not only much more culturally secular from Russian society, but are higher populated, and also unsatisfied with Russian treatment. Also, the Dörbet Sohor khan heritage survived in this alt-history. Furthermore, the Oirats would promise tariff-free access to Black Sea ports in Crimea, something the Russian Tsar would not allow.
I'm not sure how this nation could not have been a part of the Soviet Union. The USSR had full control of the Caucasus nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia) - Joseph Stalin himself was a Georgian. Soviet policy was to make sure all of the territory of the former Russian Empire was to be restored. That's why for example Romania, Poland Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany were kept as "independent" nations after WW2 but Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and Lithuania were annexed back into the USSR. The Baltic people especially really hated this, but couldn't do anything about it as they knew that a move towards succession would be treated brutally by the Soviets. The only way I could see Oirat not being part of the USSR is to reduce its territory (maybe just to Kalmykia, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, Astrakhan Oblast, and Volgograd Oblast) to enable Russia to share a land boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, and have it as being an independent nation from the 1800's (possibly a protectorate of Russia similar to Mongolia). Still, even in that scenario its likely that it would have been ruled by a puppet communist regime until 1989. From then you can have the monarchy back through popular support. btw, the Russian imperial/Soviet policy didn't give a damn if ethnic minorities were unsatisfied with Russian rule just as colonial policy from European empire didn't care - if they stroked up to much of a fuss they would be forcibly assimilated into Russian culture (a process nicknamed "Russification").
I agree with Dog of War. However, I don't think that it should have that much territory under it's control. I highly doubt that it could contain the territories where Russians are the majority, and have historically been so. Such as Rostov Oblast, Astrakhan Oblast, Volgograd Oblast (which happens to where I am from), and Voronezh Oblast. These places are 90%+ ethnic Russian. I don't think they would want to be part of Oirat and would probably want to instead be part of Russia. Now as for the other regions, like Dagestan, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia - those are more likely to be willing to be part of an independent state.
Well, I doubt Chechnya would be anything but its own probably Islamic influenced states
I think he'll have to modify the history and the territories his state controls.
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war. Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead). I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land. Though I don't think it would control as much land as you claim. I don't see how it would control places with mostly ethnic Russian populations. I would say that it would control probably Adygea, Karachay-Cherkessia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, and Kalymkia.
Everything else it would most likely not be able to control due to their being mostly ethnic Russians who would probably want to be part of Russia more.
|
|
|
| |
|
DanChan123
|
May 27, 2015, 7:50 pm
Post #273
|
|
- Posts:
- 21
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #32
- Joined:
- May 26, 2015
|
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 6:24 pm
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:47 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 11:15 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:10 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 7:35 am
- DanChan123
- May 26, 2015, 10:46 pm
http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/OiratNation: Kingdom of Oirat Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Crimean Peninsula, Adygea (Russian federal subject), Krasnodar Krai (Russian federal subject), Karachay-Cherkessia (Russian federal subject), Ingushetia (Russian federal subject), Chechnya (Russian federal subject), Dagestan (Russian federal subject), Stavropol Krai (Russian federal subject), Kalmykia (Russian federal subject), Astrkhan Oblast (Russian federal subject), Rostov Oblast (Russian federal subject), Volgograd Oblast (Russian federal subject), Voronezh Oblast (Russian federal subject). Why you want to join?: My first nation on Conworld Wiki and my new Wikia account (old one deleted). I’ve had similar experience previously on other wikis, such as the Althistory Wiki, Creative Sci Fi Wiki, Aressia Infinite Wiki, Basilicus, etc. before joining this one. It’ll be summer soon, and I got alot of time on my hands for this. Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y Other: Oirat is based on Kalmykia and the Kalmyk people, a real Central Asian people descended from the Oirats in Mongolia, whom travelled to the Volga Russia region, settling in 1630. Alternate history begins in 1856, where the 1856 Treaty of Paris (the one that ended the Crimean War between Russia and Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, Sardinia, in an attempt to stop Russian expansionism), was scrapped for the (fictional) Treaty of Sebastopol, which gave all of the territory taken by France/Britain in the war, including Crimea, to the Oirat, or Kalmyk ethnic majority in Southwest Russia, including other non-Russian minorities, so that they could start an independent state; the Kingdom of Oirat. To make secession realistic, in this alternate history, the Oirat people are not only much more culturally secular from Russian society, but are higher populated, and also unsatisfied with Russian treatment. Also, the Dörbet Sohor khan heritage survived in this alt-history. Furthermore, the Oirats would promise tariff-free access to Black Sea ports in Crimea, something the Russian Tsar would not allow.
I'm not sure how this nation could not have been a part of the Soviet Union. The USSR had full control of the Caucasus nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia) - Joseph Stalin himself was a Georgian. Soviet policy was to make sure all of the territory of the former Russian Empire was to be restored. That's why for example Romania, Poland Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany were kept as "independent" nations after WW2 but Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and Lithuania were annexed back into the USSR. The Baltic people especially really hated this, but couldn't do anything about it as they knew that a move towards succession would be treated brutally by the Soviets. The only way I could see Oirat not being part of the USSR is to reduce its territory (maybe just to Kalmykia, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, Astrakhan Oblast, and Volgograd Oblast) to enable Russia to share a land boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, and have it as being an independent nation from the 1800's (possibly a protectorate of Russia similar to Mongolia). Still, even in that scenario its likely that it would have been ruled by a puppet communist regime until 1989. From then you can have the monarchy back through popular support. btw, the Russian imperial/Soviet policy didn't give a damn if ethnic minorities were unsatisfied with Russian rule just as colonial policy from European empire didn't care - if they stroked up to much of a fuss they would be forcibly assimilated into Russian culture (a process nicknamed "Russification").
I agree with Dog of War. However, I don't think that it should have that much territory under it's control. I highly doubt that it could contain the territories where Russians are the majority, and have historically been so. Such as Rostov Oblast, Astrakhan Oblast, Volgograd Oblast (which happens to where I am from), and Voronezh Oblast. These places are 90%+ ethnic Russian. I don't think they would want to be part of Oirat and would probably want to instead be part of Russia. Now as for the other regions, like Dagestan, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia - those are more likely to be willing to be part of an independent state.
Well, I doubt Chechnya would be anything but its own probably Islamic influenced states
I think he'll have to modify the history and the territories his state controls.
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war. Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead). I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land.
Though I don't think it would control as much land as you claim. I don't see how it would control places with mostly ethnic Russian populations. I would say that it would control probably Adygea, Karachay-Cherkessia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, and Kalymkia. Everything else it would most likely not be able to control due to their being mostly ethnic Russians who would probably want to be part of Russia more. I did some research, and the most significant Russian areas include only the Krasnodar Krai since Krasnodar has the oil and coal, and has the highest Russian population out of all the territories, at 88%; all the others are distinguished greatly at percents of between 9% to 68% Russian; I calculated and average of 47% Russian in the entire area. All the others aren’t as economically important to Russia. The area is filled with non-Russian populations, and they all have histories of cultural revolutions, such as Astrakhan, and the commonwealth-based republics. The Volga River region is a territory that historically belonged to the Cossacks on one side and the Kalmyk/Oirats on the other. They are also religiously distinguished; the Muslim percentage is slightly higher than the Russian Orthodox percentage, and there are also many Buddhists, irreligious, neopagans, etc. The region has a high percentage of non-Russians.
But regardless, remember that the founding was in 1853, so the populations of these people were definitely higher; Russia’s insecurities were centered in this area, their instability caused by the various non-Russian cultural revolutions by the Cossacks; whom were brave enough to oppose powerful people like Catherine the Great, in which other groups refused in fear. If all non-Russian groups had all gathered for an independence movement and asked the coalition for independence after a war in which Russia had lost, it may as well have been greatly considered.
|
|
|
| |
|
Dog of War
|
May 27, 2015, 8:12 pm
Post #274
|
|
- Posts:
- 126
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #9
- Joined:
- Dec 15, 2014
|
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:47 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 11:15 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:10 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 7:35 am
- DanChan123
- May 26, 2015, 10:46 pm
http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/OiratNation: Kingdom of Oirat Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Crimean Peninsula, Adygea (Russian federal subject), Krasnodar Krai (Russian federal subject), Karachay-Cherkessia (Russian federal subject), Ingushetia (Russian federal subject), Chechnya (Russian federal subject), Dagestan (Russian federal subject), Stavropol Krai (Russian federal subject), Kalmykia (Russian federal subject), Astrkhan Oblast (Russian federal subject), Rostov Oblast (Russian federal subject), Volgograd Oblast (Russian federal subject), Voronezh Oblast (Russian federal subject). Why you want to join?: My first nation on Conworld Wiki and my new Wikia account (old one deleted). I’ve had similar experience previously on other wikis, such as the Althistory Wiki, Creative Sci Fi Wiki, Aressia Infinite Wiki, Basilicus, etc. before joining this one. It’ll be summer soon, and I got alot of time on my hands for this. Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y Other: Oirat is based on Kalmykia and the Kalmyk people, a real Central Asian people descended from the Oirats in Mongolia, whom travelled to the Volga Russia region, settling in 1630. Alternate history begins in 1856, where the 1856 Treaty of Paris (the one that ended the Crimean War between Russia and Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, Sardinia, in an attempt to stop Russian expansionism), was scrapped for the (fictional) Treaty of Sebastopol, which gave all of the territory taken by France/Britain in the war, including Crimea, to the Oirat, or Kalmyk ethnic majority in Southwest Russia, including other non-Russian minorities, so that they could start an independent state; the Kingdom of Oirat. To make secession realistic, in this alternate history, the Oirat people are not only much more culturally secular from Russian society, but are higher populated, and also unsatisfied with Russian treatment. Also, the Dörbet Sohor khan heritage survived in this alt-history. Furthermore, the Oirats would promise tariff-free access to Black Sea ports in Crimea, something the Russian Tsar would not allow.
I'm not sure how this nation could not have been a part of the Soviet Union. The USSR had full control of the Caucasus nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia) - Joseph Stalin himself was a Georgian. Soviet policy was to make sure all of the territory of the former Russian Empire was to be restored. That's why for example Romania, Poland Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany were kept as "independent" nations after WW2 but Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and Lithuania were annexed back into the USSR. The Baltic people especially really hated this, but couldn't do anything about it as they knew that a move towards succession would be treated brutally by the Soviets. The only way I could see Oirat not being part of the USSR is to reduce its territory (maybe just to Kalmykia, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, Astrakhan Oblast, and Volgograd Oblast) to enable Russia to share a land boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, and have it as being an independent nation from the 1800's (possibly a protectorate of Russia similar to Mongolia). Still, even in that scenario its likely that it would have been ruled by a puppet communist regime until 1989. From then you can have the monarchy back through popular support. btw, the Russian imperial/Soviet policy didn't give a damn if ethnic minorities were unsatisfied with Russian rule just as colonial policy from European empire didn't care - if they stroked up to much of a fuss they would be forcibly assimilated into Russian culture (a process nicknamed "Russification").
I agree with Dog of War. However, I don't think that it should have that much territory under it's control. I highly doubt that it could contain the territories where Russians are the majority, and have historically been so. Such as Rostov Oblast, Astrakhan Oblast, Volgograd Oblast (which happens to where I am from), and Voronezh Oblast. These places are 90%+ ethnic Russian. I don't think they would want to be part of Oirat and would probably want to instead be part of Russia. Now as for the other regions, like Dagestan, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia - those are more likely to be willing to be part of an independent state.
Well, I doubt Chechnya would be anything but its own probably Islamic influenced states
I think he'll have to modify the history and the territories his state controls.
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war. Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead). I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land. The Soviets would still annexe their land into the USSR, or at least create a puppet state. The Soviets were originally internationalists, so they rejected the ideas of nationalism and generally didn't give a toss about how independent your state was. The Soviets were instrumental for securing independence for Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in WWI before they annexed them in the Russian Civil War that followed. The Western powers - especially Britain - were intent on having the balance of power and said that to keep the balance Russia must control the Caucasus. This was in WWI, and agreements like this were key to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that the Soviets took over worried the Great Powers, but they reasoned that they may as well let the Soviets take the regions to maintain the balance of power.
Also remember that the Soviets were intent on gaining as much land as possible, and have as many puppet states as possible under their wing. Any state that was occupied by the Red Army in WWII ended up having a communist regime put in place - the exception I think was a portion of Austria. The entire Cold War was about the Soviets expanding their sphere of influence throughout the world. Turkey and Iran were spared from Soviet occupation as they were incredibly pro-Western at the beginning of the Cold War, and were the only nations the USSR boarded that never had a communist regime (Now ofc Iran eventually did its own thing but by that time the Soviets had started to get involved in its neighbour Afghanistan who they had been trying to control for years). As such I cannot see Oirat being an independent nation with its current territory during the Soviet era. A monarchy could exist if it reduced its land and let Russia have a boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, but it would very pro-Soviet during the Cold War (same as how Kuwait, Zambia, Syria, India, Burma, and Mali were not communist states but were heavily aligned with the USSR in the Cold War)
|
         Left<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Right
|
| |
|
DanChan123
|
May 27, 2015, 9:19 pm
Post #275
|
|
- Posts:
- 21
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #32
- Joined:
- May 26, 2015
|
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 8:12 pm
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:47 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 11:15 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:10 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 7:35 am
- DanChan123
- May 26, 2015, 10:46 pm
http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/OiratNation: Kingdom of Oirat Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Crimean Peninsula, Adygea (Russian federal subject), Krasnodar Krai (Russian federal subject), Karachay-Cherkessia (Russian federal subject), Ingushetia (Russian federal subject), Chechnya (Russian federal subject), Dagestan (Russian federal subject), Stavropol Krai (Russian federal subject), Kalmykia (Russian federal subject), Astrkhan Oblast (Russian federal subject), Rostov Oblast (Russian federal subject), Volgograd Oblast (Russian federal subject), Voronezh Oblast (Russian federal subject). Why you want to join?: My first nation on Conworld Wiki and my new Wikia account (old one deleted). I’ve had similar experience previously on other wikis, such as the Althistory Wiki, Creative Sci Fi Wiki, Aressia Infinite Wiki, Basilicus, etc. before joining this one. It’ll be summer soon, and I got alot of time on my hands for this. Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y Other: Oirat is based on Kalmykia and the Kalmyk people, a real Central Asian people descended from the Oirats in Mongolia, whom travelled to the Volga Russia region, settling in 1630. Alternate history begins in 1856, where the 1856 Treaty of Paris (the one that ended the Crimean War between Russia and Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, Sardinia, in an attempt to stop Russian expansionism), was scrapped for the (fictional) Treaty of Sebastopol, which gave all of the territory taken by France/Britain in the war, including Crimea, to the Oirat, or Kalmyk ethnic majority in Southwest Russia, including other non-Russian minorities, so that they could start an independent state; the Kingdom of Oirat. To make secession realistic, in this alternate history, the Oirat people are not only much more culturally secular from Russian society, but are higher populated, and also unsatisfied with Russian treatment. Also, the Dörbet Sohor khan heritage survived in this alt-history. Furthermore, the Oirats would promise tariff-free access to Black Sea ports in Crimea, something the Russian Tsar would not allow.
I'm not sure how this nation could not have been a part of the Soviet Union. The USSR had full control of the Caucasus nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia) - Joseph Stalin himself was a Georgian. Soviet policy was to make sure all of the territory of the former Russian Empire was to be restored. That's why for example Romania, Poland Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany were kept as "independent" nations after WW2 but Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and Lithuania were annexed back into the USSR. The Baltic people especially really hated this, but couldn't do anything about it as they knew that a move towards succession would be treated brutally by the Soviets. The only way I could see Oirat not being part of the USSR is to reduce its territory (maybe just to Kalmykia, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, Astrakhan Oblast, and Volgograd Oblast) to enable Russia to share a land boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, and have it as being an independent nation from the 1800's (possibly a protectorate of Russia similar to Mongolia). Still, even in that scenario its likely that it would have been ruled by a puppet communist regime until 1989. From then you can have the monarchy back through popular support. btw, the Russian imperial/Soviet policy didn't give a damn if ethnic minorities were unsatisfied with Russian rule just as colonial policy from European empire didn't care - if they stroked up to much of a fuss they would be forcibly assimilated into Russian culture (a process nicknamed "Russification").
I agree with Dog of War. However, I don't think that it should have that much territory under it's control. I highly doubt that it could contain the territories where Russians are the majority, and have historically been so. Such as Rostov Oblast, Astrakhan Oblast, Volgograd Oblast (which happens to where I am from), and Voronezh Oblast. These places are 90%+ ethnic Russian. I don't think they would want to be part of Oirat and would probably want to instead be part of Russia. Now as for the other regions, like Dagestan, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia - those are more likely to be willing to be part of an independent state.
Well, I doubt Chechnya would be anything but its own probably Islamic influenced states
I think he'll have to modify the history and the territories his state controls.
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war. Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead). I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land.
The Soviets would still annexe their land into the USSR, or at least create a puppet state. The Soviets were originally internationalists, so they rejected the ideas of nationalism and generally didn't give a toss about how independent your state was. The Soviets were instrumental for securing independence for Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in WWI before they annexed them in the Russian Civil War that followed. The Western powers - especially Britain - were intent on having the balance of power and said that to keep the balance Russia must control the Caucasus. This was in WWI, and agreements like this were key to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that the Soviets took over worried the Great Powers, but they reasoned that they may as well let the Soviets take the regions to maintain the balance of power. - Quote:
-
Also remember that the Soviets were intent on gaining as much land as possible, and have as many puppet states as possible under their wing. Any state that was occupied by the Red Army in WWII ended up having a communist regime put in place - the exception I think was a portion of Austria. The entire Cold War was about the Soviets expanding their sphere of influence throughout the world. Turkey and Iran were spared from Soviet occupation as they were incredibly pro-Western at the beginning of the Cold War, and were the only nations the USSR boarded that never had a communist regime (Now ofc Iran eventually did its own thing but by that time the Soviets had started to get involved in its neighbour Afghanistan who they had been trying to control for years). As such I cannot see Oirat being an independent nation with its current territory during the Soviet era. A monarchy could exist if it reduced its land and let Russia have a boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, but it would very pro-Soviet during the Cold War (same as how Kuwait, Zambia, Syria, India, Burma, and Mali were not communist states but were heavily aligned with the USSR in the Cold War)
Oirat is an Islamic country that had plenty of Western allies from the start. Also, the monarchy is generally appreciated by the populace; the people of Oirat were quite happy with what they had starting from 1856 (this is not generalized… if you read about how they even wanted Prime Minister Sohor to become their king/shah as well). I’m sure the USSR would attempt to convert Oirat to communism (I’ll be writing about that later). The only way I’d see the USSR taking over is if the USSR tried invading Oirat, or if they assassinated the monarch and the ministry and tried to appoint a communist leader, which would not work well since the Oirat majority Muslim populace would not appreciate it, and will probably rebel. Oirat has a history of having a watchful eye on Russia, and I don’t think many Soviets would be able to immigrate into their society unlike the mutual freedom they had with countries like Kazakhstan. And if they tried to take Crimea, Oirat’s holy grail, all of Europe (countries with military agreements and trade agreements with Oirat Black Sea access) would be pretty pissed off. The USSR could not afford a direct war, as we have observed with Korea and Vietnam. Also, if you read the history, Russia had opposed Oirat independence in 1856 and 1914, rather than help support it like it did Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijian in WWI. Actually, if Oirat did come about, it would geopolitically cut Russia away from influencing Georgia, Azerbaijian, and Armenia LONG before WWI ever began, which would mean those three countries would never have had to face events such as the Armenian genocide, and would be virtually either neutral, supply-supportive, or fight against the Allies with Oirat and the Ottomans. (Does altverse have a policy on the influencing of real world history in multiple countries, cause I say that’d be unavoidable?)
|
|
|
| |
|
MineCraftian
|
May 27, 2015, 9:56 pm
Post #276
|
|
Lion of the North
- Posts:
- 26
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #3
- Joined:
- Dec 14, 2014
|
Brazoria
- Link
- Real World Countries and Land Claimed: United States (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska)
- Why you want to join: I want to make my homeland.
- Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
- Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
- Other: God Save the Republic.
|
|
|
| |
|
JustinVuong
|
May 27, 2015, 10:00 pm
Post #277
|
|
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
- Posts:
- 130
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #6
- Joined:
- Dec 14, 2014
|
- MineCraftian
- May 27, 2015, 9:56 pm
Brazoria
- Link
- Real World Countries and Land Claimed: United States (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska)
- Why you want to join: I want to make my homeland.
- Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
- Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
- Other: God Save the Republic.
No objections as we've talked about the Mexican-American War beforehand and how it down on the wiki.
|
| Kingdom of Sierra (main) | Mexican Social Republic | Great Korean Empire | Republic of Vietnam |
     
(ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง - Kingtrevor11
-
wow im sorry ur a fag
|
| |
|
Zabuza825
|
May 28, 2015, 3:43 am
Post #278
|
|
- Posts:
- 102
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- Dec 15, 2014
|
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 1:44 pm
Ukrainian State
- Link
- Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Ukraine (except for the parts claimed by Meshkheti and the Morochan People's Republic)
- Why you want to join: -
- Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
- Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
- Other: This is an idea I had for making a third country. Basically, it would be the same as real life Ukraine up until 2014. At that point, the Neo Nazi and fascist elements that took part in the Euromaidan riots in 2014 began to want more influence. After the ouster of the legitimate president Viktor Yanukovych, a new government led by Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Vitaly Klitchko rose to power. However, the fascists viewed them (correctly) as puppets of the United States. But rather than do nothing about it as in real life, they instead overthrew the American puppet government by storming government buildings and arresting most of the new regime's members, taking advantage of the fact that the police and military were in disarray and in no shape to protect them. After that, they established a fascist dictatorship with fascist leader Oleh Tyahnybok as president, Oleksandr Turchynov as his prime minister, and Dmytro Yarosh as the vice prime minister.
The Right Sector and Svoboda fascist parties merged together to create the ruling (and only legal) party in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National Revolutionary Front (Український Національний революційний фронт). This caused both the United States, Russia, and the European Union to condemn the new fascist regime. The country was given a new official name by the fascists, "Ukrainian State", to signify their view of Ukrainians being above everyone else. They started a war in the Donbass with the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, separatists, in the east, and also tensions began with Meshkheti and Morochan states in the west. The new regime also disputes status of Crimea with Russia.
Since not all people accepted them in Ukraine proper itself, the unrest began across Ukraine, but the fascist regime used its military and security service to put down the uprisings and successfully secured most of the country. It is concentrating on fighting the separatist DNR and LNR governments in the east. The government itself is not officially fascist, but is a single-party dictatorship.
Being fascist and corrupt, it has negative relations with pretty much most countries, including Sierra, but does have some support from other dictatorships.
Alright, aside from the painfully obvious political undertones here, there's a number of issues I have.
First off - before just deciding that the US was involved in it, why don't we ask the person who RP's the US if that's alright with him? If I recall correctly, Sunkist was in charge of the US. That having been said, I'm not exactly the most active on here, so that could have changed without me knowing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Secondly - I doubt that the Ukrainian fascists would just up and get rid of the new government just like that. At the beginning anyway, they were allowed to take part in the political process. That kinda is part of what they wanted, so at least initially they seemed like they wanted to take part in the new system and try to gain influence that way (I only have this impression because for a while there I followed what VICE News was doing with their direct reporting in Ukraine).
How about this - Ukrainian authorities try to dismantle the self-defense group set up in part by the Ukrainian far-right ultranationalists in order to make it easier for the police to maintain order. Ukrainian far-right nationalists see this as a move to try and lower the amount of political power they have, and as a result storm the Ukrainian parliament and force the government (at gunpoint) to make a law giving them political power.
Now RL, the "self-defense groups" set up by the Ukrainian fascists (I put that in quotation marks because I am referring to those outside of where the protests were happening, and at the point I am referring to, these "self-defense groups" didn't really have much "defending" to do since Viktor Yanukovych was already gone and reforms were underway, yet they still stayed organized and the only reason for this I can think of is that guns and weapons give them political power) resisted (and are in fact still resisting at this moment) attempts by the Ukrainian government to get them to disarm.
That said, without someone from the Ukrainian government prior to the coup supporting the coup, there is no way it would succeed. Now you have this person being Oleksandr Turchynov. I did a quick search on this person and while I'm not convinced he's the kind of person who would side with the fascists, I also recognize that this is RP so this person in Altverse may not reflect the way he is RL. I also recognize that don't know his political positions very well, so am not exactly in a position to comment on what he would or would not do. So, I won't complain if you choose to leave him as the person who sides with the fascists.
Thirdly - I doubt that a group of people who had just overthrown a corrupt government would want to see it be overthrown by another corrupt government. Should the fascists do this, I would say that Ukraine would have to go through a period of full-blown civil war after wich the fascists could possibly gain control of the country (depends on how they play their cards). Most of those people who protested on the streets were putting their lives on the line (and I mean this literally, since police shot at the Maidan protesters on numerous occaisions), so I doubt they would just sit back down when another corrupt government goes up to them, points a gun at their heads, and says "you'll do what we say now".
EDIT: Also, this would be your third nation, yet I haven't seen you do much RP'ing with your other two with the exception of the Second Iraqi Civil War. I'd like to see more RP's with those nations before I support this.
|
|
|
| |
|
Dog of War
|
May 28, 2015, 7:23 am
Post #279
|
|
- Posts:
- 126
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #9
- Joined:
- Dec 15, 2014
|
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 9:19 pm
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 8:12 pm
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:47 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 11:15 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 11:10 am
- Dog of War
- May 27, 2015, 7:35 am
- DanChan123
- May 26, 2015, 10:46 pm
http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/OiratNation: Kingdom of Oirat Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Crimean Peninsula, Adygea (Russian federal subject), Krasnodar Krai (Russian federal subject), Karachay-Cherkessia (Russian federal subject), Ingushetia (Russian federal subject), Chechnya (Russian federal subject), Dagestan (Russian federal subject), Stavropol Krai (Russian federal subject), Kalmykia (Russian federal subject), Astrkhan Oblast (Russian federal subject), Rostov Oblast (Russian federal subject), Volgograd Oblast (Russian federal subject), Voronezh Oblast (Russian federal subject). Why you want to join?: My first nation on Conworld Wiki and my new Wikia account (old one deleted). I’ve had similar experience previously on other wikis, such as the Althistory Wiki, Creative Sci Fi Wiki, Aressia Infinite Wiki, Basilicus, etc. before joining this one. It’ll be summer soon, and I got alot of time on my hands for this. Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y Other: Oirat is based on Kalmykia and the Kalmyk people, a real Central Asian people descended from the Oirats in Mongolia, whom travelled to the Volga Russia region, settling in 1630. Alternate history begins in 1856, where the 1856 Treaty of Paris (the one that ended the Crimean War between Russia and Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, Sardinia, in an attempt to stop Russian expansionism), was scrapped for the (fictional) Treaty of Sebastopol, which gave all of the territory taken by France/Britain in the war, including Crimea, to the Oirat, or Kalmyk ethnic majority in Southwest Russia, including other non-Russian minorities, so that they could start an independent state; the Kingdom of Oirat. To make secession realistic, in this alternate history, the Oirat people are not only much more culturally secular from Russian society, but are higher populated, and also unsatisfied with Russian treatment. Also, the Dörbet Sohor khan heritage survived in this alt-history. Furthermore, the Oirats would promise tariff-free access to Black Sea ports in Crimea, something the Russian Tsar would not allow.
I'm not sure how this nation could not have been a part of the Soviet Union. The USSR had full control of the Caucasus nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia) - Joseph Stalin himself was a Georgian. Soviet policy was to make sure all of the territory of the former Russian Empire was to be restored. That's why for example Romania, Poland Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany were kept as "independent" nations after WW2 but Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and Lithuania were annexed back into the USSR. The Baltic people especially really hated this, but couldn't do anything about it as they knew that a move towards succession would be treated brutally by the Soviets. The only way I could see Oirat not being part of the USSR is to reduce its territory (maybe just to Kalmykia, Dagestan, Stavropol Krai, Astrakhan Oblast, and Volgograd Oblast) to enable Russia to share a land boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, and have it as being an independent nation from the 1800's (possibly a protectorate of Russia similar to Mongolia). Still, even in that scenario its likely that it would have been ruled by a puppet communist regime until 1989. From then you can have the monarchy back through popular support. btw, the Russian imperial/Soviet policy didn't give a damn if ethnic minorities were unsatisfied with Russian rule just as colonial policy from European empire didn't care - if they stroked up to much of a fuss they would be forcibly assimilated into Russian culture (a process nicknamed "Russification").
I agree with Dog of War. However, I don't think that it should have that much territory under it's control. I highly doubt that it could contain the territories where Russians are the majority, and have historically been so. Such as Rostov Oblast, Astrakhan Oblast, Volgograd Oblast (which happens to where I am from), and Voronezh Oblast. These places are 90%+ ethnic Russian. I don't think they would want to be part of Oirat and would probably want to instead be part of Russia. Now as for the other regions, like Dagestan, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia - those are more likely to be willing to be part of an independent state.
Well, I doubt Chechnya would be anything but its own probably Islamic influenced states
I think he'll have to modify the history and the territories his state controls.
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war. Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead). I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land.
The Soviets would still annexe their land into the USSR, or at least create a puppet state. The Soviets were originally internationalists, so they rejected the ideas of nationalism and generally didn't give a toss about how independent your state was. The Soviets were instrumental for securing independence for Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in WWI before they annexed them in the Russian Civil War that followed. The Western powers - especially Britain - were intent on having the balance of power and said that to keep the balance Russia must control the Caucasus. This was in WWI, and agreements like this were key to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that the Soviets took over worried the Great Powers, but they reasoned that they may as well let the Soviets take the regions to maintain the balance of power. - Quote:
-
Also remember that the Soviets were intent on gaining as much land as possible, and have as many puppet states as possible under their wing. Any state that was occupied by the Red Army in WWII ended up having a communist regime put in place - the exception I think was a portion of Austria. The entire Cold War was about the Soviets expanding their sphere of influence throughout the world. Turkey and Iran were spared from Soviet occupation as they were incredibly pro-Western at the beginning of the Cold War, and were the only nations the USSR boarded that never had a communist regime (Now ofc Iran eventually did its own thing but by that time the Soviets had started to get involved in its neighbour Afghanistan who they had been trying to control for years). As such I cannot see Oirat being an independent nation with its current territory during the Soviet era. A monarchy could exist if it reduced its land and let Russia have a boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, but it would very pro-Soviet during the Cold War (same as how Kuwait, Zambia, Syria, India, Burma, and Mali were not communist states but were heavily aligned with the USSR in the Cold War)
Oirat is an Islamic country that had plenty of Western allies from the start. Also, the monarchy is generally appreciated by the populace; the people of Oirat were quite happy with what they had starting from 1856 (this is not generalized… if you read about how they even wanted Prime Minister Sohor to become their king/shah as well). I’m sure the USSR would attempt to convert Oirat to communism (I’ll be writing about that later). The only way I’d see the USSR taking over is if the USSR tried invading Oirat, or if they assassinated the monarch and the ministry and tried to appoint a communist leader, which would not work well since the Oirat majority Muslim populace would not appreciate it, and will probably rebel. Oirat has a history of having a watchful eye on Russia, and I don’t think many Soviets would be able to immigrate into their society unlike the mutual freedom they had with countries like Kazakhstan. And if they tried to take Crimea, Oirat’s holy grail, all of Europe (countries with military agreements and trade agreements with Oirat Black Sea access) would be pretty pissed off. The USSR could not afford a direct war, as we have observed with Korea and Vietnam. Also, if you read the history, Russia had opposed Oirat independence in 1856 and 1914, rather than help support it like it did Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijian in WWI. Actually, if Oirat did come about, it would geopolitically cut Russia away from influencing Georgia, Azerbaijian, and Armenia LONG before WWI ever began, which would mean those three countries would never have had to face events such as the Armenian genocide, and would be virtually either neutral, supply-supportive, or fight against the Allies with Oirat and the Ottomans. (Does altverse have a policy on the influencing of real world history in multiple countries, cause I say that’d be unavoidable?)
If Russia didn't have control of Caucasus, its likely that Joseph Stalin would never have become the Soviet Premier, and that practically changes the entire of 20th century history. Also, the Soviets invaded pretty religious nations in Eastern Europe (most notable being Hungary) which the west let them get away with as they were previously occupied by Nazi's. The exceptions were states which were also occupied by American or British troops such as Iran. Altverse does prefer that nations do not change the history of other nations way too much. Four nations would obviously change a lot (Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Ukraine due to the whole Crimea thing) and possibly every nations on the planet if you consider the fact that Stalin would probably never become a Bolshevik without Russian influence over Georgia.
|
         Left<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Right
|
| |
|
Zabuza825
|
May 28, 2015, 7:48 am
Post #280
|
|
- Posts:
- 102
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- Dec 15, 2014
|
- Dog of War
- May 28, 2015, 7:23 am
- Quote:
-
- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war.
Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead).
I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land.
The Soviets would still annexe their land into the USSR, or at least create a puppet state. The Soviets were originally internationalists, so they rejected the ideas of nationalism and generally didn't give a toss about how independent your state was. The Soviets were instrumental for securing independence for Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in WWI before they annexed them in the Russian Civil War that followed. The Western powers - especially Britain - were intent on having the balance of power and said that to keep the balance Russia must control the Caucasus. This was in WWI, and agreements like this were key to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that the Soviets took over worried the Great Powers, but they reasoned that they may as well let the Soviets take the regions to maintain the balance of power. - Quote:
-
Also remember that the Soviets were intent on gaining as much land as possible, and have as many puppet states as possible under their wing. Any state that was occupied by the Red Army in WWII ended up having a communist regime put in place - the exception I think was a portion of Austria. The entire Cold War was about the Soviets expanding their sphere of influence throughout the world. Turkey and Iran were spared from Soviet occupation as they were incredibly pro-Western at the beginning of the Cold War, and were the only nations the USSR boarded that never had a communist regime (Now ofc Iran eventually did its own thing but by that time the Soviets had started to get involved in its neighbour Afghanistan who they had been trying to control for years). As such I cannot see Oirat being an independent nation with its current territory during the Soviet era. A monarchy could exist if it reduced its land and let Russia have a boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, but it would very pro-Soviet during the Cold War (same as how Kuwait, Zambia, Syria, India, Burma, and Mali were not communist states but were heavily aligned with the USSR in the Cold War)
Oirat is an Islamic country that had plenty of Western allies from the start. Also, the monarchy is generally appreciated by the populace; the people of Oirat were quite happy with what they had starting from 1856 (this is not generalized… if you read about how they even wanted Prime Minister Sohor to become their king/shah as well). I’m sure the USSR would attempt to convert Oirat to communism (I’ll be writing about that later). The only way I’d see the USSR taking over is if the USSR tried invading Oirat, or if they assassinated the monarch and the ministry and tried to appoint a communist leader, which would not work well since the Oirat majority Muslim populace would not appreciate it, and will probably rebel. Oirat has a history of having a watchful eye on Russia, and I don’t think many Soviets would be able to immigrate into their society unlike the mutual freedom they had with countries like Kazakhstan. And if they tried to take Crimea, Oirat’s holy grail, all of Europe (countries with military agreements and trade agreements with Oirat Black Sea access) would be pretty pissed off. The USSR could not afford a direct war, as we have observed with Korea and Vietnam. Also, if you read the history, Russia had opposed Oirat independence in 1856 and 1914, rather than help support it like it did Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijian in WWI. Actually, if Oirat did come about, it would geopolitically cut Russia away from influencing Georgia, Azerbaijian, and Armenia LONG before WWI ever began, which would mean those three countries would never have had to face events such as the Armenian genocide, and would be virtually either neutral, supply-supportive, or fight against the Allies with Oirat and the Ottomans. (Does altverse have a policy on the influencing of real world history in multiple countries, cause I say that’d be unavoidable?)
If Russia didn't have control of Caucasus, its likely that Joseph Stalin would never have become the Soviet Premier, and that practically changes the entire of 20th century history. Also, the Soviets invaded pretty religious nations in Eastern Europe (most notable being Hungary) which the west let them get away with as they were previously occupied by Nazi's. The exceptions were states which were also occupied by American or British troops such as Iran. Altverse does prefer that nations do not change the history of other nations way too much. Four nations would obviously change a lot (Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Ukraine due to the whole Crimea thing) and possibly every nations on the planet if you consider the fact that Stalin would probably never become a Bolshevik without Russian influence over Georgia. Just saying this, but I doubt that Stalin would even be named "Stalin" if Russia didn't have Georgia. He changed his name because he went Bolshevik, he was born as Joseph Jugashvili.
Th main issue that you're facing right now, DanChan, is that Stalin was a HUGE influence in history. Without him, things in the 1900's would turn out VERY VERY differently.
I know one might say "well you're one to talk Zab", and I will admit that I've stretched history a lot with my nations, essentially throwing history out the window actually. But I've also made sure that for my nations I won't drastically change other nations histories by throwing it out the window. Indeed, for the one nation that I didn't throw history out the window, Alkara (which I abandoned due to lack of interest in it), I realized that because of the region I was claiming there was no way that I could possibly not influence other nations history's unless I had it be part of both Russia and the Soviet Union (it had St Petersburg, once called Leningrad, after all), so I had it be conquered by Russia at one point.
Now, I'm going to throw this out - chances are you probably aren't going to be able to get away with this unless you do one of two things.
You could change your history drastically.
Alternatively, you could change your nations geographic location.
|
|
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|