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Dev271
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May 28, 2015, 10:28 am
Post #281
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How can Stalin be influenced by Bolsheviks His father and mother run from Gori and marry each other. They then go to Moscow or Petrograd for the search of work and then he is born their. Also it looks as if not each and every application is fully processed it just gets cut and there are many examples.
Small changes like these can help people make their nations like anyone can change anyones lingual, religious and political preferences. Stalin can be a capitalist too, its ALTVERSE.
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Dog of War
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May 28, 2015, 10:55 am
Post #282
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- Dev271
- May 28, 2015, 10:28 am
How can Stalin be influenced by Bolsheviks His father and mother run from Gori and marry each other. They then go to Moscow or Petrograd for the search of work and then he is born their. Also it looks as if not each and every application is fully processed it just gets cut and there are many examples.
Small changes like these can help people make their nations like anyone can change anyones lingual, religious and political preferences. Stalin can be a capitalist too, its ALTVERSE. There are limits in altverse. Nations must not infringe on each others histoy's, and as several nations depend on the Soviet Union acting in more or less the same way Stalin must be retained as a historical figure, just as Hitler and George Washington are for example. Also Stalins father was a poor cobbler. He couldn't have moved to Russia as he was too poor and couldn't speak the language. Stalin was originally trained to be an orthodox priest, which was a way of ascending the social ladder in the Russian Empire and helped Stalin make connections with Russians.
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Alexander
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May 28, 2015, 5:20 pm
Post #283
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- Zabuza825
- May 28, 2015, 3:43 am
- Alexander
- May 27, 2015, 1:44 pm
Ukrainian State
- Link
- Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Ukraine (except for the parts claimed by Meshkheti and the Morochan People's Republic)
- Why you want to join: -
- Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
- Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
- Other: This is an idea I had for making a third country. Basically, it would be the same as real life Ukraine up until 2014. At that point, the Neo Nazi and fascist elements that took part in the Euromaidan riots in 2014 began to want more influence. After the ouster of the legitimate president Viktor Yanukovych, a new government led by Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Vitaly Klitchko rose to power. However, the fascists viewed them (correctly) as puppets of the United States. But rather than do nothing about it as in real life, they instead overthrew the American puppet government by storming government buildings and arresting most of the new regime's members, taking advantage of the fact that the police and military were in disarray and in no shape to protect them. After that, they established a fascist dictatorship with fascist leader Oleh Tyahnybok as president, Oleksandr Turchynov as his prime minister, and Dmytro Yarosh as the vice prime minister.
The Right Sector and Svoboda fascist parties merged together to create the ruling (and only legal) party in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National Revolutionary Front (Український Національний революційний фронт). This caused both the United States, Russia, and the European Union to condemn the new fascist regime. The country was given a new official name by the fascists, "Ukrainian State", to signify their view of Ukrainians being above everyone else. They started a war in the Donbass with the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, separatists, in the east, and also tensions began with Meshkheti and Morochan states in the west. The new regime also disputes status of Crimea with Russia.
Since not all people accepted them in Ukraine proper itself, the unrest began across Ukraine, but the fascist regime used its military and security service to put down the uprisings and successfully secured most of the country. It is concentrating on fighting the separatist DNR and LNR governments in the east. The government itself is not officially fascist, but is a single-party dictatorship.
Being fascist and corrupt, it has negative relations with pretty much most countries, including Sierra, but does have some support from other dictatorships.
Alright, aside from the painfully obvious political undertones here, there's a number of issues I have. First off - before just deciding that the US was involved in it, why don't we ask the person who RP's the US if that's alright with him? If I recall correctly, Sunkist was in charge of the US. That having been said, I'm not exactly the most active on here, so that could have changed without me knowing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Secondly - I doubt that the Ukrainian fascists would just up and get rid of the new government just like that. At the beginning anyway, they were allowed to take part in the political process. That kinda is part of what they wanted, so at least initially they seemed like they wanted to take part in the new system and try to gain influence that way (I only have this impression because for a while there I followed what VICE News was doing with their direct reporting in Ukraine). How about this - Ukrainian authorities try to dismantle the self-defense group set up in part by the Ukrainian far-right ultranationalists in order to make it easier for the police to maintain order. Ukrainian far-right nationalists see this as a move to try and lower the amount of political power they have, and as a result storm the Ukrainian parliament and force the government (at gunpoint) to make a law giving them political power. Now RL, the "self-defense groups" set up by the Ukrainian fascists (I put that in quotation marks because I am referring to those outside of where the protests were happening, and at the point I am referring to, these "self-defense groups" didn't really have much "defending" to do since Viktor Yanukovych was already gone and reforms were underway, yet they still stayed organized and the only reason for this I can think of is that guns and weapons give them political power) resisted (and are in fact still resisting at this moment) attempts by the Ukrainian government to get them to disarm. That said, without someone from the Ukrainian government prior to the coup supporting the coup, there is no way it would succeed. Now you have this person being Oleksandr Turchynov. I did a quick search on this person and while I'm not convinced he's the kind of person who would side with the fascists, I also recognize that this is RP so this person in Altverse may not reflect the way he is RL. I also recognize that don't know his political positions very well, so am not exactly in a position to comment on what he would or would not do. So, I won't complain if you choose to leave him as the person who sides with the fascists. Thirdly - I doubt that a group of people who had just overthrown a corrupt government would want to see it be overthrown by another corrupt government. Should the fascists do this, I would say that Ukraine would have to go through a period of full-blown civil war after wich the fascists could possibly gain control of the country (depends on how they play their cards). Most of those people who protested on the streets were putting their lives on the line (and I mean this literally, since police shot at the Maidan protesters on numerous occaisions), so I doubt they would just sit back down when another corrupt government goes up to them, points a gun at their heads, and says "you'll do what we say now". EDIT: Also, this would be your third nation, yet I haven't seen you do much RP'ing with your other two with the exception of the Second Iraqi Civil War. I'd like to see more RP's with those nations before I support this. Well, the US was involved in real life, and I assumed that would not change in this, given that Dog of War mentioned that the US wants to stop Russian influence from spreading as it does in real life.
The fascists have taken part in political process before and got bad results, with only a very small percent of the vote. By this point they know they don't have a chance of rising to power through legitimate means, and would resort to more radical actions. What I might add is - basically as you said - that the new government ordered the fascist elements to disarm and submit to the authority of the new government, which they would then not want to do.
Oleksandr Turchynov is one of those people, he was the acting president of Ukraine after Yanukovych fled. He is not a fascist, but he is a Ukrainian patriot. Also, I am going to add later, that Arseniy Yatsenyuk (the current RL prime minister of Ukraine) is later released after being arrested by the fascists, and cooperates with them, becoming the minister of interior or defense. He is a radical Ukrainian patriot and is quite accepting of the fascist elements.
The fascists, once in power, would not be openly dictatorial. They would attempt to make it look like a unitary republic as before, but as the tensions begin with the anti-government protestors across the country (in Crimea, then in the Donbass) they would take advantage of this and use it as an excuse to enact martial law, giving themselves emergency powers until the crisis is resolved.
In terms of RPing, I have set up in the News forum channels for Ukraine and Iraq, and will set one up for Congo soon. I have been in the process of working on articles relating to the countries themselves, and on the main country articles, so I have not been RPing as much. Second Iraqi Civil War was one of the ones I started, and I will also make a War in Donbass (for Ukraine, with the separatist DNR and LNR groups). For Congo I might make an article for the Kivu conflict, that I think is still ongoing.
PS - The police only began firing on maidan rioters after they began attacking the police, with molotov cocktails, beatings, and shooting at them.
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DetroitJones
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May 28, 2015, 6:00 pm
Post #284
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Americano Cartel
- Link
- Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, Haiti
- Why you want to join: Back on the wiki after a long absence, I was in another collab that's inactive now, so I'll join this one.
- Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y(I didn't read every page but I read the main page and the history page)
- Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
- Other: Am I allowed to operate in Mexico since someone controls it?
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Zabuza825
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May 28, 2015, 6:18 pm
Post #285
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- Alexander
- May 28, 2015, 5:20 pm
Well, the US was involved in real life, and I assumed that would not change in this, given that Dog of War mentioned that the US wants to stop Russian influence from spreading as it does in real life.
The fascists have taken part in political process before and got bad results, with only a very small percent of the vote. By this point they know they don't have a chance of rising to power through legitimate means, and would resort to more radical actions. What I might add is - basically as you said - that the new government ordered the fascist elements to disarm and submit to the authority of the new government, which they would then not want to do.
Oleksandr Turchynov is one of those people, he was the acting president of Ukraine after Yanukovych fled. He is not a fascist, but he is a Ukrainian patriot. Also, I am going to add later, that Arseniy Yatsenyuk (the current RL prime minister of Ukraine) is later released after being arrested by the fascists, and cooperates with them, becoming the minister of interior or defense. He is a radical Ukrainian patriot and is quite accepting of the fascist elements.
The fascists, once in power, would not be openly dictatorial. They would attempt to make it look like a unitary republic as before, but as the tensions begin with the anti-government protestors across the country (in Crimea, then in the Donbass) they would take advantage of this and use it as an excuse to enact martial law, giving themselves emergency powers until the crisis is resolved.
In terms of RPing, I have set up in the News forum channels for Ukraine and Iraq, and will set one up for Congo soon. I have been in the process of working on articles relating to the countries themselves, and on the main country articles, so I have not been RPing as much. Second Iraqi Civil War was one of the ones I started, and I will also make a War in Donbass (for Ukraine, with the separatist DNR and LNR groups). For Congo I might make an article for the Kivu conflict, that I think is still ongoing.
PS - The police only began firing on maidan rioters after they began attacking the police, with molotov cocktails, beatings, and shooting at them. Okay, I have been following the Ukraine situation, and have literally seen no news networks outside of those affiliated with the Russian government make the claim that the US was involved with the conflict, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't believe those at first. Now, did the US support the protests from the get go? Well, yes, that goes without saying, the US was obviously supportive of those who opposed Yanukovich from the beginning. However, you're talking about having the United States fund and organize a massive group of protests that cause Yanukovich to flee the country AND his parliament to impeach him.
As far as I know, in real life the US was not as involved as you make them out to be in Euromaidan. It's common knowledge even here in Hawaii that the US was very supportive of the Maidan protesters from the beginning, but as far as I can tell the US did not fund and organize the protests like the Russian propaganda outlets say. To sum up what I'm saying - yes, I know the USA supported Euromaidan, but as far as I can tell it was not a CIA orchestrated coup.
As for Turchynov being one who joins the fascists simply because he's a patriot, I want to point out that there is a HUUUUUUGE difference between a patriot and a fascist. I know a LOT of people here in Hawaii who consider themselves to be Hawaiian (note that I say HAWAIIAN AND NOT AMERICAN) patriots, these people want an independent Kingdom of Hawaii to be restored (as far as me and my friends are concerned, the US annexation of Hawaii was an illegal takeover that happened after the US assisted in a coup de'tat of the legitimate government of Hawaii). However, that doesn't make us any more inclined to agree with fascists. As a matter of fact, one of my friends openly identifies as a communist (though, I question whether he holds the actual political beliefs of one, and am 99.99% sure he hasn't read the Communist Manifesto or Das Kapital). Most of the rest of us idenfity as either left-leaning or left-wing. We'd probably be the first ones up ther going against any fascist movement that comes to Hawaii.
My point - patriots aren't always sympathetic to fascist causes, so I'm pretty sure that any reason that these guys joining the fascists would go far deeper than "we're patriots so we sympathize with them".
However, I won't object too much to you making Turchynov join the fascists, simply because it's obvious that this altverse depiction of him is not a depiction of him based off IRL stuff. As for Yatsenyuk joining the fascists, I'm not entirely convinced on that as well, but same reason as Turchynov (IE, altverse Yatsenyuk is not RL Yatsenyuk), so I won't object to it too much. Well, there's that, and in order for the fascists to be able to maintain authority (even in the event that civil war erupts), they'd need to have an authority figure join them who can convince substantial numbers of the police and militar units to swear loyalty to the new fascist government.
As for the police firing on the Maidan protesters, the sources I use (which include smaller networks such as VICE News, alongside what is considered "mainstream" in the US), and they say that protests started peacefully on November 21st, but after riot police violently broke up the protests on November 30th it turned into riots on the next day.
As for the way the fascists suppress the dissent, I find it very hard to believe just delcaring martial law will solve the problem. Again, these people put their lives on the line, why would they just sit back down? If anything, I'd say that implementing martial law would probably only make the situation worse and assure that a full blown civil war breaks out.
Finally the RP'ing - I know that you've set up news channels. But as for the content of said news channels, there isn't much in them
Furthermore, you set up a news channel for Ukraine in altverse even before your nation was accepted, which irks me because it seems to be that you think your nation is already accepted even after I voiced concerns about this nation. I was more referring to your lack of RP with Congo and Iraq outside of the Second Iraqi Civil War, so really making news posts as Ukraine isn't going to do much to get rid of this concerns because the problem was lack of RP with Congo and Iraq, not lack of RP with Ukraine. Now do some more RP's with Congo OR Iraq (I really don't care if you only pick one of the two, as long as more RP is done) then I won't have as much issues.
That having been said, you've already shared some plans you have for RP's, so I suppose it's only a question of how long it will be until those RP's start.
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Alexander
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May 28, 2015, 6:33 pm
Post #286
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- Zabuza825
- May 28, 2015, 6:18 pm
- Alexander
- May 28, 2015, 5:20 pm
Well, the US was involved in real life, and I assumed that would not change in this, given that Dog of War mentioned that the US wants to stop Russian influence from spreading as it does in real life.
The fascists have taken part in political process before and got bad results, with only a very small percent of the vote. By this point they know they don't have a chance of rising to power through legitimate means, and would resort to more radical actions. What I might add is - basically as you said - that the new government ordered the fascist elements to disarm and submit to the authority of the new government, which they would then not want to do.
Oleksandr Turchynov is one of those people, he was the acting president of Ukraine after Yanukovych fled. He is not a fascist, but he is a Ukrainian patriot. Also, I am going to add later, that Arseniy Yatsenyuk (the current RL prime minister of Ukraine) is later released after being arrested by the fascists, and cooperates with them, becoming the minister of interior or defense. He is a radical Ukrainian patriot and is quite accepting of the fascist elements.
The fascists, once in power, would not be openly dictatorial. They would attempt to make it look like a unitary republic as before, but as the tensions begin with the anti-government protestors across the country (in Crimea, then in the Donbass) they would take advantage of this and use it as an excuse to enact martial law, giving themselves emergency powers until the crisis is resolved.
In terms of RPing, I have set up in the News forum channels for Ukraine and Iraq, and will set one up for Congo soon. I have been in the process of working on articles relating to the countries themselves, and on the main country articles, so I have not been RPing as much. Second Iraqi Civil War was one of the ones I started, and I will also make a War in Donbass (for Ukraine, with the separatist DNR and LNR groups). For Congo I might make an article for the Kivu conflict, that I think is still ongoing.
PS - The police only began firing on maidan rioters after they began attacking the police, with molotov cocktails, beatings, and shooting at them.
Okay, I have been following the Ukraine situation, and have literally seen no news networks outside of those affiliated with the Russian government make the claim that the US was involved with the conflict, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't believe those at first. Now, did the US support the protests from the get go? Well, yes, that goes without saying, the US was obviously supportive of those who opposed Yanukovich from the beginning. However, you're talking about having the United States fund and organize a massive group of protests that cause Yanukovich to flee the country AND his parliament to impeach him. As far as I know, in real life the US was not as involved as you make them out to be in Euromaidan. It's common knowledge even here in Hawaii that the US was very supportive of the Maidan protesters from the beginning, but as far as I can tell the US did not fund and organize the protests like the Russian propaganda outlets say. To sum up what I'm saying - yes, I know the USA supported Euromaidan, but as far as I can tell it was not a CIA orchestrated coup. As for Turchynov being one who joins the fascists simply because he's a patriot, I want to point out that there is a HUUUUUUGE difference between a patriot and a fascist. I know a LOT of people here in Hawaii who consider themselves to be Hawaiian (note that I say HAWAIIAN AND NOT AMERICAN) patriots, these people want an independent Kingdom of Hawaii to be restored (as far as me and my friends are concerned, the US annexation of Hawaii was an illegal takeover that happened after the US assisted in a coup de'tat of the legitimate government of Hawaii). However, that doesn't make us any more inclined to agree with fascists. As a matter of fact, one of my friends openly identifies as a communist (though, I question whether he holds the actual political beliefs of one, and am 99.99% sure he hasn't read the Communist Manifesto or Das Kapital). Most of the rest of us idenfity as either left-leaning or left-wing. We'd probably be the first ones up ther going against any fascist movement that comes to Hawaii. My point - patriots aren't always sympathetic to fascist causes, so I'm pretty sure that any reason that these guys joining the fascists would go far deeper than "we're patriots so we sympathize with them". However, I won't object too much to you making Turchynov join the fascists, simply because it's obvious that this altverse depiction of him is not a depiction of him based off IRL stuff. As for Yatsenyuk joining the fascists, I'm not entirely convinced on that as well, but same reason as Turchynov (IE, altverse Yatsenyuk is not RL Yatsenyuk), so I won't object to it too much. Well, there's that, and in order for the fascists to be able to maintain authority (even in the event that civil war erupts), they'd need to have an authority figure join them who can convince substantial numbers of the police and militar units to swear loyalty to the new fascist government. As for the police firing on the Maidan protesters, the sources I use (which include smaller networks such as VICE News, alongside what is considered "mainstream" in the US), and they say that protests started peacefully on November 21st, but after riot police violently broke up the protests on November 30th it turned into riots on the next day. As for the way the fascists suppress the dissent, I find it very hard to believe just delcaring martial law will solve the problem. Again, these people put their lives on the line, why would they just sit back down? If anything, I'd say that implementing martial law would probably only make the situation worse and assure that a full blown civil war breaks out. Finally the RP'ing - I know that you've set up news channels. But as for the content of said news channels, there isn't much in them Furthermore, you set up a news channel for Ukraine in altverse even before your nation was accepted, which irks me because it seems to be that you think your nation is already accepted even after I voiced concerns about this nation. I was more referring to your lack of RP with Congo and Iraq outside of the Second Iraqi Civil War, so really making news posts as Ukraine isn't going to do much to get rid of this concerns because the problem was lack of RP with Congo and Iraq, not lack of RP with Ukraine. Now do some more RP's with Congo OR Iraq (I really don't care if you only pick one of the two, as long as more RP is done) then I won't have as much issues. That having been said, you've already shared some plans you have for RP's, so I suppose it's only a question of how long it will be until those RP's start.
Yes, I know that most US media, being the government's propaganda outlets, will ignore many of the connections of the US being involved in organizing the protests, and the connections with leadership of the more moderate maidan protestors, which became the new government. I don't recommend following any major outlet, I think independent alternative media is better. I, for one, follow those like Corbett Report, StormCloudsGathering, Sovereign Man, and several other smaller alternative media sources.
For example, there was the call between Victoria Nuland and Geoffery Pyatt, where they decided which Ukrainian politician would hold which post in the new government, then there was Nuland's comment about the US investing $5 billion for "democracy" in Ukraine, and the fact that many of the politicians have had ties to the US already. The National Endowment for Democracy was involved, which is a US-affiliated organization that spends money often on funding opposition groups in order to orchestrate color revolutions against governments.
The parliament kind of had to impeach him, since they were being pressured to by the mass riots going on not too far away. Yanukovych feared for his life and fled (which I disagree with, he should have stayed and at least tried to do something).
On YouTube look up "Ukraine what you're not being told". That's not the exact title, I don't remember what it is, but its something along those lines. It is by StormCloudsGathering. He described the situation rather well.
Turchynov and Yatsenyuk are not fascists themselves, but given the situation they would be willing to cooperate (in this altverse, at least). They declared martial law after the Crimea annexation by Russia, which they used as an excuse, and tried to unite the populace behind them by using the "Russian aggression" idea. The parliament and its members would remain as they are, though the president and prime minister would get more power as a result of the martial law. They are aware that they need to maintain a good image to get support, and so they are not doing anything openly fascist (making racist remarks about Jews or other groups, opening concentration camps, thing like that). So far they just declared martial law and are waging war against the separatists.
In the news channels, I didn't want to put out a bunch of information at once since that would not be as realistic, I am going for one article every couple or few days, giving time for a big enough event to happen (like an official state visit or progress in a war). I am also keeping track of whats happening in Iraq in real life to base articles on those events as they unfold.
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DanChan123
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May 28, 2015, 10:57 pm
Post #287
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- Zabuza825
- May 28, 2015, 7:48 am
- Dog of War
- May 28, 2015, 7:23 am
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- DanChan123
- May 27, 2015, 6:08 pm
Actually, to correct all of you, the Kingdom of Oirat existed before the Soviet Union in its fictional history (The First Kingdom was established in 1856). The Russian Empire just occupied it during the First World War, unofficially claiming it as theirs, and the Soviets technically had control over it after they overthrew the Tsar in the middle of the war.
Oirat formed after the Crimean War. The year before its independence and the end of the war, the Russian Empire in 1855 had to release the emancipation of serfdom, bringing in a liberal reform to the country. This reform allowed the various cultural minorities to immigrate to the various large industrial cities in the South Russian area, such as Sevastopol/Sebastopol in Crimea; in this version of history, alot of non-Russian minorites were forced to work for the Russian army in Crimea. Meanwhile, the coalition of French, British, Ottomans, and Sardinians had already pushed into Crimea, taking control of Sevastopol and basically the entire peninsula was lost to them. The Crimean War was a big contributor to the start of Russia’s decline. I’m sure now that the non-Russian minorites and other people had a much more liberal role in the working class society after the serfdom was abolished. In real history, this opened the gateway for a communistic rebellion to take place. But what if there was also a cultural rebellion? There were PLENTY of cultural rebellions (i.e Cossack rebellions) that took place, but when they did, Russia was strong enough to stop them. What if Russia was not strong enough? I’m sure the British and French, who were unsatisfied with the gain from this war (including the land gain), would be quite eager to offer their “conquered” land to these kinds of people, if they all asked the same thing (which they did in this alternate history); I’m sure they’d be even more eager to give it away if it means: 1. To stop Russian expansionism and spheres of influence (from places like Georgia, Azerbaijian, Armenia), which was the whole point of the Crimean War. 2. Gaining tariff-free trade with Crimean ports. Europeans appreciated trading with Oirats in the 1600s and 1700s, because they did not have any international taxation system or reliance on a structure currency, until the Tsar came and annexed them when they were vulnerable (their khan was dead).
I say it’s very possible. And if Oirat did exist before the Soviets came about, then their wouldn’t be much of an argument about how it is unrealistic that Russia seemingly just let some other people take their land.
The Soviets would still annexe their land into the USSR, or at least create a puppet state. The Soviets were originally internationalists, so they rejected the ideas of nationalism and generally didn't give a toss about how independent your state was. The Soviets were instrumental for securing independence for Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in WWI before they annexed them in the Russian Civil War that followed. The Western powers - especially Britain - were intent on having the balance of power and said that to keep the balance Russia must control the Caucasus. This was in WWI, and agreements like this were key to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that the Soviets took over worried the Great Powers, but they reasoned that they may as well let the Soviets take the regions to maintain the balance of power. - Quote:
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Also remember that the Soviets were intent on gaining as much land as possible, and have as many puppet states as possible under their wing. Any state that was occupied by the Red Army in WWII ended up having a communist regime put in place - the exception I think was a portion of Austria. The entire Cold War was about the Soviets expanding their sphere of influence throughout the world. Turkey and Iran were spared from Soviet occupation as they were incredibly pro-Western at the beginning of the Cold War, and were the only nations the USSR boarded that never had a communist regime (Now ofc Iran eventually did its own thing but by that time the Soviets had started to get involved in its neighbour Afghanistan who they had been trying to control for years). As such I cannot see Oirat being an independent nation with its current territory during the Soviet era. A monarchy could exist if it reduced its land and let Russia have a boarder with Georgia and Azerbaijan, but it would very pro-Soviet during the Cold War (same as how Kuwait, Zambia, Syria, India, Burma, and Mali were not communist states but were heavily aligned with the USSR in the Cold War)
Oirat is an Islamic country that had plenty of Western allies from the start. Also, the monarchy is generally appreciated by the populace; the people of Oirat were quite happy with what they had starting from 1856 (this is not generalized… if you read about how they even wanted Prime Minister Sohor to become their king/shah as well). I’m sure the USSR would attempt to convert Oirat to communism (I’ll be writing about that later). The only way I’d see the USSR taking over is if the USSR tried invading Oirat, or if they assassinated the monarch and the ministry and tried to appoint a communist leader, which would not work well since the Oirat majority Muslim populace would not appreciate it, and will probably rebel. Oirat has a history of having a watchful eye on Russia, and I don’t think many Soviets would be able to immigrate into their society unlike the mutual freedom they had with countries like Kazakhstan. And if they tried to take Crimea, Oirat’s holy grail, all of Europe (countries with military agreements and trade agreements with Oirat Black Sea access) would be pretty pissed off. The USSR could not afford a direct war, as we have observed with Korea and Vietnam. Also, if you read the history, Russia had opposed Oirat independence in 1856 and 1914, rather than help support it like it did Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijian in WWI. Actually, if Oirat did come about, it would geopolitically cut Russia away from influencing Georgia, Azerbaijian, and Armenia LONG before WWI ever began, which would mean those three countries would never have had to face events such as the Armenian genocide, and would be virtually either neutral, supply-supportive, or fight against the Allies with Oirat and the Ottomans. (Does altverse have a policy on the influencing of real world history in multiple countries, cause I say that’d be unavoidable?)
If Russia didn't have control of Caucasus, its likely that Joseph Stalin would never have become the Soviet Premier, and that practically changes the entire of 20th century history. Also, the Soviets invaded pretty religious nations in Eastern Europe (most notable being Hungary) which the west let them get away with as they were previously occupied by Nazi's. The exceptions were states which were also occupied by American or British troops such as Iran. Altverse does prefer that nations do not change the history of other nations way too much. Four nations would obviously change a lot (Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Ukraine due to the whole Crimea thing) and possibly every nations on the planet if you consider the fact that Stalin would probably never become a Bolshevik without Russian influence over Georgia.
Just saying this, but I doubt that Stalin would even be named "Stalin" if Russia didn't have Georgia. He changed his name because he went Bolshevik, he was born as Joseph Jugashvili. Th main issue that you're facing right now, DanChan, is that Stalin was a HUGE influence in history. Without him, things in the 1900's would turn out VERY VERY differently. I know one might say "well you're one to talk Zab", and I will admit that I've stretched history a lot with my nations, essentially throwing history out the window actually. But I've also made sure that for my nations I won't drastically change other nations histories by throwing it out the window. Indeed, for the one nation that I didn't throw history out the window, Alkara (which I abandoned due to lack of interest in it), I realized that because of the region I was claiming there was no way that I could possibly not influence other nations history's unless I had it be part of both Russia and the Soviet Union (it had St Petersburg, once called Leningrad, after all), so I had it be conquered by Russia at one point. Now, I'm going to throw this out - chances are you probably aren't going to be able to get away with this unless you do one of two things. You could change your history drastically. Alternatively, you could change your nations geographic location.
How about this: Let’s just call Georgia/Azerbaijian/Armenia as AGA. Oirat and AGA were part of the Russian Empire long before Oirat became its own country. The people in AGA were mostly Christian, like the Russians, and ethnically reserved since they were in their small little section of the world with a mountain (Caucasus) boundary seperating them from the going-ons in main Russia, and the people in proto-Oirat were the huge Non-Russian and melting pot that strived for independence, and many of them were Islamic.
I’m sure Russia can still control AGA, south of the Caucasus, despite Oirat’s independence. This would allow Stalin to still join up with the Bolsheviks. The Russians/Soviets dominated the entire Caspian Sea, since they had control of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. Oirat’s dominance was primarily in the Black Sea, which Russia also had control of.
P.S. The Volgograd Oblast no longer belongs to Oirat.
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Zabuza825
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May 29, 2015, 12:38 am
Post #288
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- Alexander
- May 28, 2015, 6:33 pm
Yes, I know that most US media, being the government's propaganda outlets, will ignore many of the connections of the US being involved in organizing the protests, and the connections with leadership of the more moderate maidan protestors, which became the new government. I don't recommend following any major outlet, I think independent alternative media is better. I, for one, follow those like Corbett Report, StormCloudsGathering, Sovereign Man, and several other smaller alternative media sources.
For example, there was the call between Victoria Nuland and Geoffery Pyatt, where they decided which Ukrainian politician would hold which post in the new government, then there was Nuland's comment about the US investing $5 billion for "democracy" in Ukraine, and the fact that many of the politicians have had ties to the US already. The National Endowment for Democracy was involved, which is a US-affiliated organization that spends money often on funding opposition groups in order to orchestrate color revolutions against governments.
The parliament kind of had to impeach him, since they were being pressured to by the mass riots going on not too far away. Yanukovych feared for his life and fled (which I disagree with, he should have stayed and at least tried to do something).
On YouTube look up "Ukraine what you're not being told". That's not the exact title, I don't remember what it is, but its something along those lines. It is by StormCloudsGathering. He described the situation rather well.
Turchynov and Yatsenyuk are not fascists themselves, but given the situation they would be willing to cooperate (in this altverse, at least). They declared martial law after the Crimea annexation by Russia, which they used as an excuse, and tried to unite the populace behind them by using the "Russian aggression" idea. The parliament and its members would remain as they are, though the president and prime minister would get more power as a result of the martial law. They are aware that they need to maintain a good image to get support, and so they are not doing anything openly fascist (making racist remarks about Jews or other groups, opening concentration camps, thing like that). So far they just declared martial law and are waging war against the separatists.
In the news channels, I didn't want to put out a bunch of information at once since that would not be as realistic, I am going for one article every couple or few days, giving time for a big enough event to happen (like an official state visit or progress in a war). I am also keeping track of whats happening in Iraq in real life to base articles on those events as they unfold. Did you not pay attention to what I wrote in there?
I stated that I also followed smaller, independent media outlets and not just the major US media outlets (CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc). I explicitly stated that I followed VICE News reports, and I don't know how the Russian government puts them out to be, but VICE News is an independent news outlet that has in the past been openly critical of US government policy. Specifically in their series titled "Russian Roulette". Their methods are questionable to some of the US mainstream media outlets, as their methods are to literally send people to conflict zones in order to report directly from there. This has in the past ended badly for their reporters. I am specifically referring to a time when the Ukrainian separatists detained Simon Ostrovsky based on false accusations that he had links to Right Sector.
Now before you accuse the US media outlets of being "the governments propaganda outlets", allow me to introduce you to a VICE News report about the media situation in Russia titled "Silencing Dissent in Russia: Putin's Propaganda Machine" (link). Yes, the US media can sometimes be propaganda outlets, though from my experience it's more for one of the two major policial parties than the federal government (this is especially true for FOX News, and believe me when I say that some of the things they've said have scared me, to the point where part of me is considering leaving the USA and moving to Japan, which I can do because I am a dual citizen). But from what I understand there's a similar growing situation in Russia.
There's a reason why I don't limit myself to US media outlets - I also go to news outlets based outside the USA such as the UK's BBC and Japan's NHK and Asahi News (along with the occasional Japanese TV News report I can watch from KIKU TV - a local independent TV station dedicated to bringing media from Asia to the Asian community here in Hawaii, so no they don't air things like BBC and that stuff it's all stuff from Japan, Korea, China, the Philippines, and other Asian nations). I was raised to never get my news from just one single source - all news will be biased in some way and have some form of agenda (propaganda or otherwise), so instead get news from as many sources as possibly (something made extremely easy by the internet) and draw your own conclusions - and these are the conclusions I've reached.
When it comes to the Ukraine situation, while I may sometimes go to places like BBC and CNN for some of my news - those are mostly for the "what happened". For example, there was a battle here, a raid there, protest here, reports of Russian troops here, etc. For more in-depth looks at the situation I generally go to VICE News. I would like to point out that VICE News is far from a mainstream media outlet here - as far as I can tell they don't even have their own TV slot and only deliver the news via the internet.
I know I may seem like I'm harking on about one seemingly insignificant here - but I'm tired of hearing this bullshit about how all the news networks I pay attention to are "propaganda outlets", ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO MAINSTREAM AMERICAN NEWS NETWORKS AND I HAVE STATED THAT I DON'T LIMIT MYSELF TO MAINSTREAM NEWS NETWORKS OR TO AMERICAN NEWS NETWORKS.
Furthermore - you have addressed literally zero of my other issues, simply saying my understanding of the situation is wrong. I will admit - I don't have a full understanding of the situation - I don't think anybody does. That does not, however, excuse you from addressing my other issues.
You have not addressed my concerns about the fact that I find it highly unlikely that people who put their lives up for the cause of ousting Yanukovich because of corruption and that stuff would accept a perhaps even more corrupt regime rising up. I stand by my statements that a period of full blown civil war would likely follow - especially if they implement martial law in order to secure their power. This goes even moreso if we go with your version of the events, in which the US is involved in the protests. Surely, should the fascists try to overthrow a government the US helped bring about, the US would then try to topple the fascists?
Furthermore, all this is going on without the input of the person who RP's the US. I have not been informed of any change in the situation regarding Sunkists de-facto control of the US, so I'm still going by the idea that he maintains control over it.
You have not addressed the issue of your lack of RP with Iraq and Congo.
You attempted to address the issue of my doubt of whether or not Turchynov and Yatsenyuk would join the fascists - but for me that wasn't a big issue to begin with. I stated that I won't make too much of a fuss about it. Solving this one issue isn't going to make me suddenly change my mind on the whole thing, there are other problems I have with this that have so far been ignored.
You only tried to put forward your version of the events, trying to explain why your view of the situation in Ukraine is correct. Well, the problems I have don't stem from just disagreements over the situation in Ukraine - there's more to it than that.
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Alexander
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May 29, 2015, 9:27 am
Post #289
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- Zabuza825
- May 29, 2015, 12:38 am
- Alexander
- May 28, 2015, 6:33 pm
Yes, I know that most US media, being the government's propaganda outlets, will ignore many of the connections of the US being involved in organizing the protests, and the connections with leadership of the more moderate maidan protestors, which became the new government. I don't recommend following any major outlet, I think independent alternative media is better. I, for one, follow those like Corbett Report, StormCloudsGathering, Sovereign Man, and several other smaller alternative media sources.
For example, there was the call between Victoria Nuland and Geoffery Pyatt, where they decided which Ukrainian politician would hold which post in the new government, then there was Nuland's comment about the US investing $5 billion for "democracy" in Ukraine, and the fact that many of the politicians have had ties to the US already. The National Endowment for Democracy was involved, which is a US-affiliated organization that spends money often on funding opposition groups in order to orchestrate color revolutions against governments.
The parliament kind of had to impeach him, since they were being pressured to by the mass riots going on not too far away. Yanukovych feared for his life and fled (which I disagree with, he should have stayed and at least tried to do something).
On YouTube look up "Ukraine what you're not being told". That's not the exact title, I don't remember what it is, but its something along those lines. It is by StormCloudsGathering. He described the situation rather well.
Turchynov and Yatsenyuk are not fascists themselves, but given the situation they would be willing to cooperate (in this altverse, at least). They declared martial law after the Crimea annexation by Russia, which they used as an excuse, and tried to unite the populace behind them by using the "Russian aggression" idea. The parliament and its members would remain as they are, though the president and prime minister would get more power as a result of the martial law. They are aware that they need to maintain a good image to get support, and so they are not doing anything openly fascist (making racist remarks about Jews or other groups, opening concentration camps, thing like that). So far they just declared martial law and are waging war against the separatists.
In the news channels, I didn't want to put out a bunch of information at once since that would not be as realistic, I am going for one article every couple or few days, giving time for a big enough event to happen (like an official state visit or progress in a war). I am also keeping track of whats happening in Iraq in real life to base articles on those events as they unfold.
Did you not pay attention to what I wrote in there? I stated that I also followed smaller, independent media outlets and not just the major US media outlets (CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc). I explicitly stated that I followed VICE News reports, and I don't know how the Russian government puts them out to be, but VICE News is an independent news outlet that has in the past been openly critical of US government policy. Specifically in their series titled "Russian Roulette". Their methods are questionable to some of the US mainstream media outlets, as their methods are to literally send people to conflict zones in order to report directly from there. This has in the past ended badly for their reporters. I am specifically referring to a time when the Ukrainian separatists detained Simon Ostrovsky based on false accusations that he had links to Right Sector. Now before you accuse the US media outlets of being "the governments propaganda outlets", allow me to introduce you to a VICE News report about the media situation in Russia titled "Silencing Dissent in Russia: Putin's Propaganda Machine" ( link). Yes, the US media can sometimes be propaganda outlets, though from my experience it's more for one of the two major policial parties than the federal government (this is especially true for FOX News, and believe me when I say that some of the things they've said have scared me, to the point where part of me is considering leaving the USA and moving to Japan, which I can do because I am a dual citizen). But from what I understand there's a similar growing situation in Russia. There's a reason why I don't limit myself to US media outlets - I also go to news outlets based outside the USA such as the UK's BBC and Japan's NHK and Asahi News (along with the occasional Japanese TV News report I can watch from KIKU TV - a local independent TV station dedicated to bringing media from Asia to the Asian community here in Hawaii, so no they don't air things like BBC and that stuff it's all stuff from Japan, Korea, China, the Philippines, and other Asian nations). I was raised to never get my news from just one single source - all news will be biased in some way and have some form of agenda (propaganda or otherwise), so instead get news from as many sources as possibly (something made extremely easy by the internet) and draw your own conclusions - and these are the conclusions I've reached. When it comes to the Ukraine situation, while I may sometimes go to places like BBC and CNN for some of my news - those are mostly for the "what happened". For example, there was a battle here, a raid there, protest here, reports of Russian troops here, etc. For more in-depth looks at the situation I generally go to VICE News. I would like to point out that VICE News is far from a mainstream media outlet here - as far as I can tell they don't even have their own TV slot and only deliver the news via the internet. I know I may seem like I'm harking on about one seemingly insignificant here - but I'm tired of hearing this bullshit about how all the news networks I pay attention to are "propaganda outlets", ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO MAINSTREAM AMERICAN NEWS NETWORKS AND I HAVE STATED THAT I DON'T LIMIT MYSELF TO MAINSTREAM NEWS NETWORKS OR TO AMERICAN NEWS NETWORKS. Furthermore - you have addressed literally zero of my other issues, simply saying my understanding of the situation is wrong. I will admit - I don't have a full understanding of the situation - I don't think anybody does. That does not, however, excuse you from addressing my other issues. You have not addressed my concerns about the fact that I find it highly unlikely that people who put their lives up for the cause of ousting Yanukovich because of corruption and that stuff would accept a perhaps even more corrupt regime rising up. I stand by my statements that a period of full blown civil war would likely follow - especially if they implement martial law in order to secure their power. This goes even moreso if we go with your version of the events, in which the US is involved in the protests. Surely, should the fascists try to overthrow a government the US helped bring about, the US would then try to topple the fascists? Furthermore, all this is going on without the input of the person who RP's the US. I have not been informed of any change in the situation regarding Sunkists de-facto control of the US, so I'm still going by the idea that he maintains control over it. You have not addressed the issue of your lack of RP with Iraq and Congo. You attempted to address the issue of my doubt of whether or not Turchynov and Yatsenyuk would join the fascists - but for me that wasn't a big issue to begin with. I stated that I won't make too much of a fuss about it. Solving this one issue isn't going to make me suddenly change my mind on the whole thing, there are other problems I have with this that have so far been ignored. You only tried to put forward your version of the events, trying to explain why your view of the situation in Ukraine is correct. Well, the problems I have don't stem from just disagreements over the situation in Ukraine - there's more to it than that. Woah, calm down there.
First of all, I didn't say that you only listened to the major mainstream networks, I just told you you should avoid them completely and only listen to alternative ones. But as you said, I suppose they would be useful for getting the general idea of events, and then listening to other independent sources. I would not recommend any mainstream British sources for anything other than the general picture of things, such as the BBC, to be specific, in case you don't already use it for that purpose.
Also you probably should not rely too much on VICE news, while they are independent, they sadly seem to often times tow the US government's party line when it comes to the Ukraine crisis. I have used VICE myself before, but only for non-Ukraine issues (specifically for what is happening in Africa and Middle East, they have some pretty good reports on that.) VICE seems to largely buy into this whole anti-Putin streak that the US and other Western governments have built up. I have my own ideas for how my country should be run, but Putin has done a very good job so far and I don't see why people have a problem with him. Considering especially that the alternatives are far, far worse - either him, or Gennady Zyuganov, communist clown, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, basically a fascist, or an American collaborator (anyone from the "opposition", Navalny, Kasyanov, etc.) So I don't listen to all of this anti-Putin rhetoric too much, I think he is an OK leader and though he probably has some skeletons in the closet (like every politician, especially western ones), he is generally a good leader and I might vote for him if he runs in 2018.
Now I don't have time to watch the report you posted at the moment of this writing (I have a few minutes left before I have to go), I will watch it when I get home later today. However, as far as what I do know of the Russian media, I have had a generally good experience with them. They do showcase the Russian perspective (obviously), but from my time being in Russia and watching main Russian channels, I still checked independent sources while I was there, and I did not hear them say anything about Ukraine situation that turned out to be a lie (unlike some other media outlets I could mention). So generally I don't view the Russian media as too bad, but to be honest, I don't watch it very frequently, so its not a problem for me.
Now, to address what you said regarding Altverse concerns: First off, I see what you mean that people on the maidan do not want a corrupt regime. The radicals would handle this by, after rising to power and taking control of state television, would present evidence of the members of the new government working with the US and thus committing treason. The radicals would claim it was necessary, and will say that the regular system remains intact (including the democratically elected parliament). The people would not rise up as the new regime would not take any direct action against them, not to mention the parliament and cabinet of ministers remain as they were (mostly include people not related to their party to at least make an appearance of evening out the power). When Crimea is annexed by Russia and the regions in the east also declare their independence, they would declare martial law (understandably) to regain order and prevent other separatists from rising up (or so they would tell the public, which is part of the reason, but of course there is the reason of gaining more power as well). The average person will probably understand this. Not to mention that, again, the other parties will still have people in positions of power, most of the cabinet of ministers are not members of the radical parties that the president is from. With the Yanukovych era ministers replaced, the average person has no reason to rebel.
I guess you missed this, but I did address why I did not RP as much yet for Iraq and Congo, so I will repeat that:
In the news channels, I didn't want to put out a bunch of information at once since that would not be as realistic, I am going for one article every couple or few days, giving time for a big enough event to happen (like an official state visit or progress in a war). I am also keeping track of whats happening in Iraq in real life to base articles on those events as they unfold.
Other than that, I am working on articles and expansion of things related to Second Iraqi Civil War, but as I said before, I don't have the time to do everything at once, and I am working on it.
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JustinVuong
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May 29, 2015, 10:47 am
Post #290
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( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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- DetroitJones
- May 28, 2015, 6:00 pm
Americano Cartel
- Link
- Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, Haiti
- Why you want to join: Back on the wiki after a long absence, I was in another collab that's inactive now, so I'll join this one.
- Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y(I didn't read every page but I read the main page and the history page)
- Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
- Other: Am I allowed to operate in Mexico since someone controls it?
You are allowed if you agree that the cartel is one of the fascist Mexican government's private groups and means to acquire funds overseas (so the Cartel has extensive ties to the government and functions similarly to a paramilitary organization or a state-sponsored criminal syndicate).
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| Kingdom of Sierra (main) | Mexican Social Republic | Great Korean Empire | Republic of Vietnam |
     
(ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง - Kingtrevor11
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wow im sorry ur a fag
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