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Topic Started: December 14, 2014, 10:36 pm (5,077 Views)
JustinVuong
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Before your country can officially take part in the Altverse community, you must first go through the application process. Before you apply, make sure to read the Rules and the official page. In addition, you must provide a link to the main article of the country you plan to be using. Although strongly encouraged but not required, the article should be of decent length that provides sufficient information about the country. Be prepared to make the necessary changes to your country before it can be deemed a part of Altverse. Under no circumstance may you add your nation, claim your nation is part of, or otherwise insert information that may give the impression that your country is in any shape or form connected to Altverse and/or its material until you have been given explicit approval from the community consensus/moderator.

Code:
 
[center][b]Your Country Name[/b][/center]
[list]
[*][b][url=http://www.conworld.wikia.com/wiki/Your_Country_Name]Link[/url][/b]
[*][b]Real World Countries and Land Claimed[/b]:
[*][b]Why you want to join[/b]:
[*][b]Have you read everything concerning Altverse?[/b]: (Y/N)
[*][b]Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?[/b]: (Y/N)
[*][b]Other[/b]: Your additional comments here.
[/list]


Example
Kingdom of Sierra

  • Link
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: California, Nevada, Arizona, Baja California, Baja California Sur, Sonora, Hawaiian Islands, American Samoa, Easter Island, Kiribati
  • Why you want to join: I really enjoy collaborating with others and I want to have fun.
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
  • Other: This is just an example but I'd like to point out that you can also provide links to other important pages related to your country to enhance understanding. Links to the government page, flags, or military are great.
Edited by JustinVuong, January 3, 2015, 6:49 pm.
| Kingdom of Sierra (main) | Mexican Social Republic | Great Korean Empire | Republic of Vietnam |
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Replies:
Zabuza825

Alexander
June 5, 2015, 9:17 am
OK, thanks for replying.

Alright, well, I suppose I could remove the part where they ban other political parties, in order to keep the population satisfied at least to some extent. Also, for some of their more drastic actions, they would use the separatism in the east and the Crimean annexation to justify it to the public and try to rally public support.

The other thing I wanted to bring up is that the fascists, once in power, would gather the maidan radicals and put them into a new National Guard of Ukraine (kind of like what happened in real life). This National Guard would be mostly Ukrainian ultranationalists and would be loyal to the new regime, which they could use to enforce their rule rather than rely on the mainly non-radical military and police.

Legislature would be the way you described it, basically, and the fascists would probably use the National Guard to intimidate them. The military would probably be forced to pledge allegiance to the new government and anyone who does not would be kicked out, or perhaps demoted to a lower rank. For example, in real life, the Ukrainian navy chief of staff defected to Russia once this began and so he would have to be replaced by the new government. They would try to fill up important posts in the military with people who are willing to work for them without asking too many questions.

And yes, it did seem to me like in the past months that RP in Altverse has been slowing down overall. I suppose this sudden influx of new participants/new countries (Oirat, Romania, India, Qatif, though I think some of those are still awaiting acceptance) would improve RP if we informed them about it, and increased cooperation. Maybe have like a sort of "meeting" in the wiki chat a couple or a few times every week to discuss weekly happenings in our nations and then come up with new ideas and state what countries want to say to each other regarding the events, and discuss other related issues, something like that.
If that's what you're going to do, then my major concerns have been addressed and any more objecting by me would realy amount to needless nitpicking.

Unless others have objections to Ukraine, I won't oppose it anymore.

That said, I still do feel we should check with whoever RP's the USA about having the US government be involved in the Euromaidan protests. Seriously, nobody has gotten back to me on the status of the USA yet, and I think that's going to need some clarifying.

Also, I would still like my objections to the obvious political connotations of the way that this version of Ukraine has been presented to be noted by anyone who views this post. I do object to seeing what is in my view Russian government propaganda being brought in here, even if it is only in part. It is simply that since a lot of other issues I had with this have been addressed I feel that continuing to object because of it would only cause needless conflict (which would, quite frankly, be a waste of time for everyone involved, all of us have things to do after all!).
Edited by Zabuza825, June 7, 2015, 3:36 am.
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JustinVuong
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I support the inclusion of Alexander's Ukraine.
| Kingdom of Sierra (main) | Mexican Social Republic | Great Korean Empire | Republic of Vietnam |
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Alexander

Zabuza825
June 7, 2015, 3:34 am
Alexander
June 5, 2015, 9:17 am
OK, thanks for replying.

Alright, well, I suppose I could remove the part where they ban other political parties, in order to keep the population satisfied at least to some extent. Also, for some of their more drastic actions, they would use the separatism in the east and the Crimean annexation to justify it to the public and try to rally public support.

The other thing I wanted to bring up is that the fascists, once in power, would gather the maidan radicals and put them into a new National Guard of Ukraine (kind of like what happened in real life). This National Guard would be mostly Ukrainian ultranationalists and would be loyal to the new regime, which they could use to enforce their rule rather than rely on the mainly non-radical military and police.

Legislature would be the way you described it, basically, and the fascists would probably use the National Guard to intimidate them. The military would probably be forced to pledge allegiance to the new government and anyone who does not would be kicked out, or perhaps demoted to a lower rank. For example, in real life, the Ukrainian navy chief of staff defected to Russia once this began and so he would have to be replaced by the new government. They would try to fill up important posts in the military with people who are willing to work for them without asking too many questions.

And yes, it did seem to me like in the past months that RP in Altverse has been slowing down overall. I suppose this sudden influx of new participants/new countries (Oirat, Romania, India, Qatif, though I think some of those are still awaiting acceptance) would improve RP if we informed them about it, and increased cooperation. Maybe have like a sort of "meeting" in the wiki chat a couple or a few times every week to discuss weekly happenings in our nations and then come up with new ideas and state what countries want to say to each other regarding the events, and discuss other related issues, something like that.
If that's what you're going to do, then my major concerns have been addressed and any more objecting by me would realy amount to needless nitpicking.

Unless others have objections to Ukraine, I won't oppose it anymore.

That said, I still do feel we should check with whoever RP's the USA about having the US government be involved in the Euromaidan protests. Seriously, nobody has gotten back to me on the status of the USA yet, and I think that's going to need some clarifying.

Also, I would still like my objections to the obvious political connotations of the way that this version of Ukraine has been presented to be noted by anyone who views this post. I do object to seeing what is in my view Russian government propaganda being brought in here, even if it is only in part. It is simply that since a lot of other issues I had with this have been addressed I feel that continuing to object because of it would only cause needless conflict (which would, quite frankly, be a waste of time for everyone involved, all of us have things to do after all!).
OK, I guess we should ask Sunkist (if he's the one who controls the US) if he would be fine with the role of the US.
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Fallout

Global Nation of Humanity

  • Link
  • Real World Countries and Land Claimed: Unrecognised internationally, claims extraterritoriality of headquarters. Currently seeking to lease or control land to gain sovereign territory.
  • Why you want to join: I am very interested in this idea I have had and am currently developing.
  • Have you read everything concerning Altverse?: Y
  • Do you agree to comply to all rules and policies?: Y
  • Other: I feel this would be an interesting concept for Altverse, and aspiring state which goes against the geopolitical and economic status quo.
Edited by Fallout, June 7, 2015, 10:22 am.
Westlandic People's Republic | Global Nation of Humanity
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DanChan123

So far you have identified two problems regarding Oirat.
I. It seems to interfere with Russia’s Soviet history drastically by eliminating Stalin.
II. It prevents Soviet Russia’s control over Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia.

So here is my answer:

I. The Tsar still had control over the states located South of Oirat. The Tsardom practically owned the Caspian and influenced every area surrounding it.

Remember that Oirat was formed before the completion of the influx of Russian people into the area, and the steppe aboriginals living there strongly differed from the Russians in culture and religion, and many of them were quite rebellious in the first place; also the “Sohor” Khan heritage survived in this alternate history, and so they had a political leader to represent them, unlike in the real life history. Also there were Coalition soldiers in Oirat following the Crimean War and the independence movement.

From this we know that the Tsar still had control over Stalin’s homeland, and this would not change the idea that the capability of Oirat to sustain an independent state is low.

II. An SSR was formed on the entire Eastern (Caspian) side of Oirat during what was at first a minor communistic insurrection in the city of Astrakhan, which escalated into an unconstitutional occupation by the Red Army, and an Oirat Civil War that allowed the Astrakhan SSR to spread all the way down to Azerbaijan. This took place in the early 1920s. The Soviet Union was unable to take ALL of Oirat because WWII had started. The Oirat government officially stopped sending troops to fight Germany after Operation Barbarossa failed, and took a role as a production state which boosted their economy and trade with countries that eventually opposed the Union during the Cold War. With a stronger economy they could get more allies to combat the case of a Soviet invasion, or at least intimidate the USSR such that they stop considering an invasion entirely. Meanwhile the Soviets were still fighting and let’s just say the costs didn’t end well for the USSR.

Oirat government virtually rendered all Soviet plans to convert the nation obsolete, by joining NATO in the 60s (i.e. the Black Ghost incident, in which Oirat found the Soviets spying on their new navy with stealth submarines in the Black Sea), and allowing anti-Soviet forces to operate in Oirat.

The land originally belonging to the Astrakhan SSR, and later the pro-Kingdom provisional government, was peacefully annexed back by the Kingdom of Oirat when Gorbachev officially dissolved the Union.

Do you vouch for approval?

Edited by DanChan123, June 7, 2015, 7:38 pm.
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DanChan123

Gee, weeks without replies…
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Dog of War
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I would have to see a map of the Astrakhan SSR before approving. However, it may be better if the Tsar had control over either the east or west coast - otherwise Lenin/Stalin would have invaded the entire of Oirat at some point and occupied all of it - remember they had 23 years to take the entire of Oirat before Operation Barbarossa was launched. If the Tsar had the East Coast, then its likely Oriat would have been able to negotiate a peace deal with the Red Army, although most likely they would have to cede territory. Now in the Cold War Oirat would be isolated if it took a pro-Western approach - again, it would probably be dependent on the Soviets for aid (in the same way the Kingdom of Afghanistan was). You could also have had the Soviets occupy Oirat in the Cold War, and have the monarchy restored following the fall of communism. I just can't see how Oirat could take an anti-Soviet stance when it would literally be surrounded by pro-Soviets states from 1945 to 1989.
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DanChan123

Dog of War
July 11, 2015, 7:33 pm
I would have to see a map of the Astrakhan SSR before approving. However, it may be better if the Tsar had control over either the east or west coast - otherwise Lenin/Stalin would have invaded the entire of Oirat at some point and occupied all of it - remember they had 23 years to take the entire of Oirat before Operation Barbarossa was launched. If the Tsar had the East Coast, then its likely Oriat would have been able to negotiate a peace deal with the Red Army, although most likely they would have to cede territory. Now in the Cold War Oirat would be isolated if it took a pro-Western approach - again, it would probably be dependent on the Soviets for aid (in the same way the Kingdom of Afghanistan was). You could also have had the Soviets occupy Oirat in the Cold War, and have the monarchy restored following the fall of communism. I just can't see how Oirat could take an anti-Soviet stance when it would literally be surrounded by pro-Soviets states from 1945 to 1989.
Go to this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_subjects_of_Russia#/media/File:Russian_Regions-EN.svg
It’s a map of all the russian federal subjects.
The Astrakhan SSR includes the political boundaries of the republics 6, 12, 5, 3, Dagestan, 8. It also includes half of Krai 1, and the Astrakhan Oblast.

The main reason the Kingdom of Oirat would have survived without communism is its difference from other countries that became communist states. First of all, the treaties signed after the end of WWI practically barred the Soviet Union from interacting with former Axis countries such as the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Oirat; the Crimean War was a constant reminder of this.

Second of all, Oirat people wanted religious freedom and much of it was pro-West, as it had borrowed the structure of government from Western countries where the country’s founder, Menko Sohor, had studied. To maintain a connection with the West, Oirat opened its oil trade to countries like Britain and France and also made much money from selling war supplies in Turkey and Persia during their own insurrections. Of course, Oirat opened up oil trade with the Soviet Union as well and they recieved arms and vehicles (tanks) in return. The Soviet Union was occupied with establishment, the White Movement, the Great Purge, and the Spanish Civil War during those 23 years, while money poured into Oirat’s pockets just prior to the Great Depression, and a successful government reformation operated by powerful Oirat Prime Minister Nurzhan Salaiman satisfied the population and diminished the need for a communist state. Lenin got most of his oil from Baku in Azerbaijan in 1920, which he had invaded through naval means via the Caspian Sea. You might say he would’ve rather taken Oirat’s oil instead of Azerbaijan’s, but geopolitically speaking, Oirat had greater trade routes such as the connection with Istanbul and the rest of the Mediterranean.

Near the end of WWII, Oirat’s survival and successful resistance from Nazi occupation (i. e. the Battle of Rostov and Stalingrad) gave it time to continue selling stuff to the Allies. The SU’s push on the Eastern Front of WWII allowed Stalin to establish communism in European countries, but Oirat was not affected by this.

After the war was the time when the Soviet Union became powerful, and of course that was when the SU used the Astrakhan Uprising to start the Oirat Civil War. Of course strong opposition to the Soviet power among Oirat citizens and the front in Korea at the time prevented all of Oirat from being conquered. In contrast with other SSR states, the Astrakhan SSR had ALOT of internal rebellions from Islamic groups which made progress for Soviet expansion from there VERY difficult. Additionally, I can’t really imagine the SU quickly turning over the pro-capitalist Krasnodar at once without facing off against countries who have trade connections, embassies, and businesses in Oirat.

The Afghan Soviet War marked the climax of anti-Soviet activity in the Astrakhan SSR. Oirat wasn’t isolated: Oirat’s relationship with America and its later membership into NATO kept it running; Oirat allowed the United States to build military bases on Oirat’s federal land. Oirat’s people were happy anyway, since now they had an extra layer of protection. This marked a period of cultural Westernization for the country. Oirat also helped modernize Iran according to Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi’s wishes, which created a strong bond between the two countries up until the Islamic Revolution. Oirat also had a bond with Turkey, which was crucial to the docking of Oirat ships in Istanbul and the passage of Oirat goods through the Bosphorus.

More proof that Oirat was not isolated is the 1936 Montreux Convention that allowed free civilian and merchant travel throughout the Black Sea. Both Greece (I guess its called Hellas in Altverse) and Turkey joined NATO in 1951. Because of this, I can validate the events and results of the Black Ghost Incident, which was a clear violation to the eyes of NATO and the United Nations, further prompting a security-based relationship with NATO and the countries eventual membership into the organization without a violent Soviet opposition. Also, Oirat’s membership in OPEC is a great contribution to Oirat’s relationship with powerful petroleum producing countries.

All of these factors would have contributed to the survival of the Second Kingdom of Oirat since WWI and proof that Oirat was far from isolated on a realistic, theoretical perception.

If your still not convinced, well let me ask you: How did an ISOLATED Switzerland and the Anchluss remain unaffected by its small pro-Nazi party such that Switzerland remained safe from Nazi governance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars
Switzerland was blockaded by BOTH Axis and Allies yet is survived. In Oirat’s case, Oirat actually had it much, much better.
Edited by DanChan123, July 12, 2015, 12:04 am.
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Dog of War
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DanChan123
July 11, 2015, 11:37 pm
Dog of War
July 11, 2015, 7:33 pm
I would have to see a map of the Astrakhan SSR before approving. However, it may be better if the Tsar had control over either the east or west coast - otherwise Lenin/Stalin would have invaded the entire of Oirat at some point and occupied all of it - remember they had 23 years to take the entire of Oirat before Operation Barbarossa was launched. If the Tsar had the East Coast, then its likely Oriat would have been able to negotiate a peace deal with the Red Army, although most likely they would have to cede territory. Now in the Cold War Oirat would be isolated if it took a pro-Western approach - again, it would probably be dependent on the Soviets for aid (in the same way the Kingdom of Afghanistan was). You could also have had the Soviets occupy Oirat in the Cold War, and have the monarchy restored following the fall of communism. I just can't see how Oirat could take an anti-Soviet stance when it would literally be surrounded by pro-Soviets states from 1945 to 1989.
Go to this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_subjects_of_Russia#/media/File:Russian_Regions-EN.svg
It’s a map of all the russian federal subjects.
The Astrakhan SSR includes the political boundaries of the republics 6, 12, 5, 3, Dagestan, 8. It also includes half of Krai 1, and the Astrakhan Oblast.

The main reason the Kingdom of Oirat would have survived without communism is its difference from other countries that became communist states. First of all, the treaties signed after the end of WWI practically barred the Soviet Union from interacting with former Axis countries such as the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Oirat; the Crimean War was a constant reminder of this.

Second of all, Oirat people wanted religious freedom and much of it was pro-West, as it had borrowed the structure of government from Western countries where the country’s founder, Menko Sohor, had studied. To maintain a connection with the West, Oirat opened its oil trade to countries like Britain and France and also made much money from selling war supplies in Turkey and Persia during their own insurrections. Of course, Oirat opened up oil trade with the Soviet Union as well and they recieved arms and vehicles (tanks) in return. The Soviet Union was occupied with establishment, the White Movement, the Great Purge, and the Spanish Civil War during those 23 years, while money poured into Oirat’s pockets just prior to the Great Depression, and a successful government reformation operated by powerful Oirat Prime Minister Nurzhan Salaiman satisfied the population and diminished the need for a communist state. Lenin got most of his oil from Baku in Azerbaijan in 1920, which he had invaded through naval means via the Caspian Sea. You might say he would’ve rather taken Oirat’s oil instead of Azerbaijan’s, but geopolitically speaking, Oirat had greater trade routes such as the connection with Istanbul and the rest of the Mediterranean.

Near the end of WWII, Oirat’s survival and successful resistance from Nazi occupation (i. e. the Battle of Rostov and Stalingrad) gave it time to continue selling stuff to the Allies. The SU’s push on the Eastern Front of WWII allowed Stalin to establish communism in European countries, but Oirat was not affected by this.

After the war was the time when the Soviet Union became powerful, and of course that was when the SU used the Astrakhan Uprising to start the Oirat Civil War. Of course strong opposition to the Soviet power among Oirat citizens and the front in Korea at the time prevented all of Oirat from being conquered. In contrast with other SSR states, the Astrakhan SSR had ALOT of internal rebellions from Islamic groups which made progress for Soviet expansion from there VERY difficult. Additionally, I can’t really imagine the SU quickly turning over the pro-capitalist Krasnodar at once without facing off against countries who have trade connections, embassies, and businesses in Oirat.

The Afghan Soviet War marked the climax of anti-Soviet activity in the Astrakhan SSR. Oirat wasn’t isolated: Oirat’s relationship with America and its later membership into NATO kept it running; Oirat allowed the United States to build military bases on Oirat’s federal land. Oirat’s people were happy anyway, since now they had an extra layer of protection. This marked a period of cultural Westernization for the country. Oirat also helped modernize Iran according to Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi’s wishes, which created a strong bond between the two countries up until the Islamic Revolution. Oirat also had a bond with Turkey, which was crucial to the docking of Oirat ships in Istanbul and the passage of Oirat goods through the Bosphorus.

More proof that Oirat was not isolated is the 1936 Montreux Convention that allowed free civilian and merchant travel throughout the Black Sea. Both Greece (I guess its called Hellas in Altverse) and Turkey joined NATO in 1951. Because of this, I can validate the events and results of the Black Ghost Incident, which was a clear violation to the eyes of NATO and the United Nations, further prompting a security-based relationship with NATO and the countries eventual membership into the organization without a violent Soviet opposition. Also, Oirat’s membership in OPEC is a great contribution to Oirat’s relationship with powerful petroleum producing countries.

All of these factors would have contributed to the survival of the Second Kingdom of Oirat since WWI and proof that Oirat was far from isolated on a realistic, theoretical perception.

If your still not convinced, well let me ask you: How did an ISOLATED Switzerland and the Anchluss remain unaffected by its small pro-Nazi party such that Switzerland remained safe from Nazi governance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars
Switzerland was blockaded by BOTH Axis and Allies yet is survived. In Oirat’s case, Oirat actually had it much, much better.
Switzerland though was largely neutral in the Cold War, and sided with neither the US or the USSR in international disputes. In World War Two Switzerland was probably never invaded by the Axis as it never made any moves to ally with the Allies. Portugal can be seen in a similar light - like Switzerland it would have been logical for it to join a side (Switzerland's German population and democratic heritage could mean it would be a natural ally to either side, as would Portugal's close links to the UK and semi-fascist government would make it understandable for them to join either side). As well as that, Turkey's histroy has been changed in Altverse- it was occupied in 1945 meaning the only country Oirat could trade with via a naval route would be Hellas. However, I can offer another suggestion - you could take the east coast of Azerbaijan and have a boarder with Iran, which could mean in WWII Britain would help keep Soviets out of Oirat (the only difference being that the Astrakhan SSR would be on the west coast). Its likely though Oirat would not be part of NATO, but CENTO instead, and that it only joins NATO in 1991.
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DanChan123

Dog of War
July 12, 2015, 9:45 am
Switzerland though was largely neutral in the Cold War, and sided with neither the US or the USSR in international disputes. In World War Two Switzerland was probably never invaded by the Axis as it never made any moves to ally with the Allies. Portugal can be seen in a similar light - like Switzerland it would have been logical for it to join a side (Switzerland's German population and democratic heritage could mean it would be a natural ally to either side, as would Portugal's close links to the UK and semi-fascist government would make it understandable for them to join either side). As well as that, Turkey's histroy has been changed in Altverse- it was occupied in 1945 meaning the only country Oirat could trade with via a naval route would be Hellas. However, I can offer another suggestion - you could take the east coast of Azerbaijan and have a boarder with Iran, which could mean in WWII Britain would help keep Soviets out of Oirat (the only difference being that the Astrakhan SSR would be on the west coast). Its likely though Oirat would not be part of NATO, but CENTO instead, and that it only joins NATO in 1991.
True, CENTO does seem much more reasonable. Haven’t considered that. But of course that would mean Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia would probably never have become SSRs as the Soviets had control of the Caspian, which was the primary way the SU could’ve taken the South Caucasus countries into their “communist union”. This means these three countries least likely have become communist; leaving of from the cut-off via the independence of Oirat, these three countries were under the sphre of influence of the Tsar, as the Tsar had control of the Caspian Sea’s trade that was essential for the survival of Azerbaijan, which would also impact Georgia and Armenia. During the October Revolution, the Russian Provisional Government handed off power over these states to the Special Transcaucasian Committee, which actually founded a short lived Transcaucasion Democratic Federative Republic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcaucasian_Democratic_Federative_Republic] that composed of all three countries. In this alternate universe, the TDFR would’ve survived.

Either someone has to conworld the Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic or something else. I think it’s more likely that Persia/Iran under Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi would take over the TDFR than Oirat, and this way Oirat could still be apart of CENTO. Of course, it’d be more likely that Oirat become a part of NATO along with Hellas later on since CENTO was hardly effective (it dissolved in 1979).
Edited by DanChan123, July 12, 2015, 1:29 pm.
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