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A DTG based computer game?; Because getting a game on Steam would be cool
Topic Started: Sep 4 2015, 03:08 PM (334 Views)
Talist
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Guy with all the talking animals
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I want to make a game. Like, on Steam.

I've never made an actual game before. But hey, there's gotta be a first time, right? I have programming experience with Java, and the game engine Unity uses C#, which apparently is very similar to Java. And, seemingly unlike a lot of things of Steam Greenlight, I actually know a few things about starting game design, like don't do 3d, don't try to replicate Minecraft/Call of Duty, make a prototype involving blocks, yada yada, yada.

As for the game setting, the thing I'd be most comfortable making story wise, would be here in DTG. Specifically, the DreamScape sidequest, which leads into the next part, the mechanics.

My idea is for a Metroid-Vania style 2d platformer centered around Wilson's dream. Although I'd probably call him Laiko for the sake of originality. It works in days, with each day being say, 10 minutes. Each day, you get to run around and try to collect as many upgrades as possible that are hidden around the dream representation of the lab. The more upgrades you get, the more abilities you unlock, the stronger you are, and the more upgrades you can find. (I'd possibly have a system for the Grid where you control gravity, light, and electricity via mouse, but that might be hard to program.) Standard Metroid-Vania stuff. What isn't standard is that at the end of each day, you return to the start and 'go to sleep'. Then, you have the choice to fight the final boss, guilt. You can fight him at any point, even on night 1. But if you don't have enough upgrades and/or aren't good enough, he will kill you, which has the same effect as just skipping the boss fight anyway.

Now, I am terrible with art. So, I've come up with a few ways to substitute competence with charm. And no, it isn't pixel art because people hate that. Instead, make everything like a puppet show with characters being pencil drawn cutouts on little popsicle sticks, kinda like how Battle Block Theater does its cutscenes. That means I don't have to animate actual movement and I just have it swap the still picture with a movement one and then have it bounce up and down.

I might be trying to get in WAY over my head... But I want to try. What I would consider a resounding success is if I manage to make an hour long game, price it at 1$, and sell 200 copies. If Grass Simulator can do it, why can't I? Bonus points if I actually get Steam trading cards. And if it doesn't make it up onto Steam, that's sad, but... okay. I'll put it up on some of the free websites like Kongregate or Newgrounds or something. And that might actually be better because if the game is under an hour long, that means people could beat it and refund it on Steam. (The limit there is under two hours)

I wanted to post this mainly to document it and force me to commit to it. Of course, if anyone does have Unity experience or wants to make art, I'd love if you wanted to help. I suspect this is going to take a very long time because I'm starting Unity from 0 experience.

...

...

...

Alternatively, I could make a visual novel documenting all the more storyish parts of DTG. I suspect those kinds of "games" are stupid easy to program.
Something something, play my game. I dare you. http://s15.zetaboards.com/DTG_Forums/topic/10508000/1/#new
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NumberSoup
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Both things sound cool... I'd probably like the visual novel more myself, but that's just personal preference.
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engie
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I like the visual novel idea, personally.
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Talist
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So, basically people want me to undercut the webcomic adaptation with a visual novel adaptation? The main problem there is that it's more a job for Twin's art than it is for my programming. So, if he wants to make all the pictures, I'd put them together in Unity. But I doubt it will have the same appeal to people who haven't played DTG.

Wait, I have a WONDERFUL idea. I should make it a dating sim! I can see it now...


Wil-Senpai blushes at your comment and looks down sheepfoxishly.

Oh... you... you really think so Player-Chan? I mean... you have done enough dull, random, repetitive, and most of all, gameplay padding tasks with me to max out my relationship value. And everyone knows that deep, heartfelt feelings of love can be accurately represented with the integer variable, wilson_Relation. And I'm sure that you're truly committed to a monogamous and sincerely emotional relationship with the .png image I am even though this could be your 17th playthrough and you're just looking for all the characters' endings. I also love how many random gift items you've given me, like those acorns. I just woke up one morning and thought to myself 'GODMODDER! I wish someone would give me some ACORNS! I have no clue where to find ACORNS!' I loved them so much that talking to me now gives you 50% extra stat points for some reason. Also, you've given me all this stuff even though it's not my birthday or any major holiday and I've never given you anything in return. I'm no expert, but I think healthy relationships have some reciprocation. Also, have I mentioned that you creepily seem to ALWAYS know exactly where I am? It's a good thing for you that I have no option to... you know, leave, ask you to stop stalking me, or call the police. But don't worry, everyone knows that stalking someone just means you *obviously* and totally socially acceptably love them and are trying to teach them to 'open up their heart'. You totally aren't planning on leading them into a dark alleyway and shanking them.

As you click through all that as fast as possible and try to meet his large, sparkly anime eyes with your own large sparkly anime eyes, you realize how stupid this relationship is because of the massive height difference between the two of you. Seriously. You're about six times taller than him. Also, if you haven't noticed, he's a fox, genius. So achievement unlocked! 'Bestiality!'. Then the Godmodder notices you and bashes everyone's heads in. GAME OVER.



I'm sure that would be a great idea, especially considering how annoyed people are getting at portrayal of characters over in Goshcraft. ... I spent way too long on that joke.

But if you actually want a visual novel, I'd need a lot of preplanning of the story, permission to use people's characters, and an idea of what parts to include.
Edited by Talist, Sep 5 2015, 03:24 AM.
Something something, play my game. I dare you. http://s15.zetaboards.com/DTG_Forums/topic/10508000/1/#new
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pionoplayer
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Huh, the visual novel idea is nice, but I think that the game would work better.
I like the idea of having them be paper cut outs, that'd be kind of fun.

I don't think the visual novel would work as well, the thing's going to need a lot of adaptation, and room needs to be left for the previous one, since some of the stuff will need explaining, and I'm still trying to find time to get The Godmodder Chronicles off the ground, so I'm worried about our projects messing with each other.
But whichever you choose, I'm still behind you all the way.

I'd definitely dole out money to play Dreamscape.
Yeah I got nothin.
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Talist
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I'm probably not going to have this game for a long time. It would take at least a year, probably more. So, I want to have a solid plan first, which leads me to this post of me just putting down ideas. I'm kinda using this as an online journal so I don't have a nice idea but forget it.

I might want to make a mobile game. On mobile, I don't have to compete with 5$ Skyrim, expectations for games are lower, and people are more willing to download random free/low price apps. I could have some ads if I wanted to, or even *gasp* micro transactions. Of course, a platformer does NOT work on a mobile device. At all. So I'd want to change it to something more mobile friendly, like a turn based RPG. Then I'd also want to implement some kind of speed based mini game in between selecting actions, like, yes, Undertale. However, I originally got the idea from the Mario & Luigi games. And because neither of those two games' systems would work on a mobile device, I was thinking of replacing it with a system that definitely works on mobile, match 3. I actually like the speed based match 3, like the Pokemon Shuffle/Trozi kind of things. But I had another idea to take it farther and do something I've never seen anyone else do (maybe for a very good reason I can't see). You know how in Undertale, your enemies often fire bolts at you from outside the screen and you have to dodge them? I had the idea where enemies are firing into your match 3 grid at Wilson, but he's stationary. However, whenever you match 3 or more tokens, it forms a temporary wall to block a shot. So, you have to make sure you match them at the right place and time. (And you'd be able to move tokens anywhere so it's not too restrictive).

Anyway, there's my random ideas. Doughnut steal.
Something something, play my game. I dare you. http://s15.zetaboards.com/DTG_Forums/topic/10508000/1/#new
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pionoplayer
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Hm, that's a decent idea. Don't know if I'd play it personally, but it's still a nifty one.
Yeah I got nothin.
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Redstonetam15
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I'd love to be in the game :3.

Anyways, how's the game so far?
You are already dead.
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Talist
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Um... I haven't started and have no plans to start any time soon. Sure, I can make a java program to simulate some Hunger Games or some other text based game, but an actual game with actual graphics? That's sooooooo far in the future. (the biggest problems are artwork and music.) That would be something either over the summer or my college project or something. I'm just putting down random ideas. I have a... let's see... 489 page book on game design, and it's one of my favorite books. A big thing about it is planning. At least, I'll use that as my excuse. So anyway, I want to any of my ideas down somewhere I'll remember them and where other people can see them.

=-=-=-=-More Random Ideas-=-=-=-=

I'd be rather dumb to not try to learn something from the really good, popular games, like Undertale. In Undertale, you have two options to try and beat an encounter with, (I'm not counting running) either aggressive or peaceful. The problem to me is that you can't be... uh... aggressively peaceful? If that makes any sense? From what I've seen, if you want to be peaceful, you have to play defensively and survive your opponents' attacks until you can work out how to solve the puzzle. That's more realistic, but I think it could be more fun.

So, another option is for the turn based RPG, give the player something along the lines of these options:

MIGHTMINDHEARTFLEE


Might and Flee are exactly what they sound like. The other two are somewhat more interesting. I'm taking some ideas from a game called Renowned Explorers: International Society (I really like that game). Both of them rely on exploiting your opponent's emotions. Mind uses things like illusions and insults to get enemies to run away. Heart tries to inspire your enemies into supporting you.

Maybe this is getting too complex for my first game. Probably. ... Definitely.

But if you want to be in the game, sure I guess. Don't know what you'd want to do though.
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pionoplayer
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Huh, that would be an interesting gimmick. I think that it's an idea to save for a later game when you have more experience though.
Yeah I got nothin.
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Talist
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BEHOLD! Potentially the longest non RP, non computer generated post on this forum! I feel so special for having nothing better to do. ... Probably should be getting back to lynda.com... would be a better use of my time...

Random brainstorming update. I want a really solid idea of what I'll be doing before I actually make anything. If I keep updating with all my brainstormed ideas, maybe I'll remember this project by the time summer/another break rolls around.

I'm pretty sure now that this will not be my very first game. My very first game will probably be some platformer that is really, really, really bad. Then I'll put it up on Steam Greenlight for 10$. This is going to be my "dream" game that takes 78 billion years of development with a budget of one bent paperclip. Oh well. Brainstorming ideas is always fun.



Mechanical Stuff:

I still like the idea of the turn based RPG where each individual action has some kind of skill based aspect. So, I had another idea for it. Rather than using a match three system, it could use TETRIS! Whenever you take an attack, it lets you place 5 (or so) Tetris blocks on what I'll call the "attack grid". Whenever you clear a row, it gives you a percentage based damage boost to the attack you were using. However, the state of the board persists between your attacks. So, once you use your biggest attack, you want the board to be lined up so that you can use one of the 1x4 pieces, clear 4 rows at once (called a Tetris. I'll probably just call it a critical hit), and get a massive damage boost. However, taking damage will shuffle up the attack grid and potentially ruin combos you had set up. Speaking of getting hit...

What would be really cool, but hard to program is whenever you get attacked (or just for major attacks), it goes to what I'll call the aptly named defense grid. This time, the AI is trying to line up rows. If they do, you take damage. But you have the ability to mess them up slightly by placing blocks, swapping out their block, moving blocks, etc. The problem with this is that coding an AI to intelligently play Tetris is HARD. There are several scripts online from people who have already done it, so maybe I could base something off that. But the script needs to also be able to adapt whenever the player does something to the grid. This is probably too hard to program.

I also want player choices to matter. I know that's always the dream of every novice, starry eyed game designer though. Choices are one of the most expensive assets to give to players. You can either make a 10 hour long story with one truly meaningful, story altering choice right in the middle. Or one completely linear 15 hour long story. Plus, you have to worry about whether each ending feels fully fleshed out and is a proper ending, yet still is unique compared to the other endings.



Story Stuff:
These were more fun to think about.

I want to break the fourth wall. Like, a lot. But not like Deadpool does or anything. I want to break it in a way relevant to the game. So, I got some ideas on what to do. I want to try and either break or explain common video game tropes. And I don't mean just "Go save the princes- oh wait, the big bad IS the princess" kind of story tropes, but those are good to break as well. I really want to attack the more gameplay based tropes, such as the concept of a "Game over" screen and the GUIs (graphical user interfaces). Why does collecting 100 coins give you a 1-up? And why does lining up a row in Tetris give a damage boost?

One of my first ideas was to adopt the DTG concept of the Narrative, but change it somewhat and have that be some kind of god to the characters. I'll probably give all these concepts different names though. Anyway, here the Narrative will represent the creative power of the authors of a story. It tends to empower the righteous, give out Deus ex Machinas, and do whatever else it takes to get a happy ending even when evil should logically win. One of the strongest powers of the Narrative is that of the "fail state", which lets it rewind reality. Ever notice how video game heroes just keep on coming back after dying/failing? As long as you still have spare lives, the main character can respawn and try again as much you'd like, even if the character has been described as mortal before. The stronger the Narrative is, the more liberally it uses fail states to tailor the story's outcome to its desires.
Spoiler: click to toggle


There are three problems that prevent the Narrative from flat out handing an easy win to whoever it wants. First, in cases of Good Versus Good or Evil versus Evil where both sides are equally justified, the Narrative tends to just back off. So, I want the world to be idealistic, where the "villain" is actually good, but still in conflict with the main character. I'll elaborate more on that later. Second, the Narrative is the authors' creative will. So, in order to make a better story, it often lets characters suffer and be defeated, as long as the story still gets its happy ending. The Narrative isn't actually purely good, it just wants the best story possible. And the Narrative's idea of a 'happy ending' is one where the protagonists are happy. Nobody cares what happened to Odysseus's men in anything more than "oh... I guess that's terrible...". It also is usually responsible for the dreaded scripted events and perma death cutscenes. I hope to (eventually) work that concept into the "overthrow god" ending (maybe to truly get that ending, you have to get every other ending then delete the game files afterwards). Very occasionally, the Narrative will use its fail state power to actually encourage a bad ending if it thinks that's the best story. The third problem is that, similarly to DTG, the Narrative usually doesn't act directly. It wants a story, not a massive Deus ex Machina. That's where the next paragraph comes in.

There's the Narrative's executor, otherwise known quite literally as the Player. And yes, I mean the player who downloaded the game and is playing it. The Player tends to execute the Narrative's will by helping along/advising/downright controlling the main character. They don't have to do so all the time, but are usually railroaded into doing so in most games (You can't join the Templars in Assassin's Creed, can't be a villain in Fallout4, can't let the forest burn in Ori and the Blind Forest. You tend to succeed at those games' "good path" eventually.), but sometimes with the threat of a fail state (letting the bad guys win just gives you a "game over, try again"). The stronger the Narrative is, the less direct control it gives the Player. The Player has a more direct influence on the game, but they, with rare exceptions, need their own executor who is actually in the game. As you can probably guess, that is the main character. Otherwise known as the Hero.

The Hero is the one character/group of characters in the game who was chosen by the Narrative to have the most direct link to the Player. The Hero has both the Narrative and Player's backing, usually meaning they are considerably stronger, smarter, and more heroic than other, normal characters. They also strangely tend to be able to learn "ancient, extremely complicated forbidden techniques" at the speed of plot, often times much faster than even experts in the field. And thanks to the Narrative, they have the most common, but forgotten, video game hero power, respawning. Whenever the character does respawn, it's from the Narrative using a fail state there. No character remembers from the rewound reality, not even the Hero. Most of the time anyway. I'll probably be putting my DTG characters into the most important roles because I'm egotistical I've developed them the most.

I have all these underlying world ideas, but not much for the exact plot. I do have a few possible ideas though. And this is getting farther and farther from DTG by the minute. The villain used to be a hero. As in, chosen by the Narrative and a different player. He once went on adventurers, saved the world, etc. By the end of the story, he was EXTREMELY powerful, capable of rewriting space and time with his attacks. But then, his story ended. He got his happy ending and the Narrative abandoned him. But it went farther than that. Because the villain's world didn't have any more stories left to tell in it, the Narrative tried to erase it. However, the villain was so powerful, he realized what was happening and tried to stop it. And he succeeded. In a way. His world, and everyone in it, including him, died. So what does the actual game take place in? A memory. Through what power he had left, the villain maintained a sudo real version of his world and people. Again, including himself. But due to, you know, dying, his memory version doesn't really remember what happened. All it thinks is that it was abandoned by the Narrative and suddenly lost 99% of its power because of that. But actually, that 99% of power is being used to stop the Narrative from finishing the job and crushing this memory world. The Narrative just can't... quite... do... it! But that's where the player comes in. It's your quest as the "only moral person" to go with your direct influence in the game and slay this "evil tyrant" and get the "happy ending". ... Where everybody dies.

But... that's a really drastic storyline that will probably drag the world to the more cynical side. But the whole "memory that the Narrative is trying to kill" might be good to use. Maybe there's another character that the Narrative killed off during the villain's original adventures in order to build drama, but the villain is doing everything possible to keep their semi-physical memory alive.

I do want to use the "villain used to be the hero" thing. Either way, the villain is angry at the Narrative for abandoning him and leaving him without powers. And call this an Undertale rip off if you'd like, but that left the villain (and maybe other characters) with an extremely high level of genre awareness. He knows that there's a player and that the hero gets respawns (even if the hero doesn't), and he's going to use that to his advantage. But in a silly and idealistic way, of course. Having a game where the main enemy is quite literally trying to get you to rage quit would not be very fun.



Random ideas that are combinations of story and gameplay and/or tropes I shoud list for breaking

This an idea. It's a cool idea, but I don't think it would really work properly. What if the game rewarded the player for saving and reloading? As in, more than rewarding the player with just favorable RNG. I don't really know how I could implement it though. As I said, it's an idea.

Maybe the game download can include a text file or executable called "interface.txt". For most of the game, it's useless. However, it could be referenced in game as "an emergency access for the Player,". So for certain sections, the player can tab out of the game, enter something into the text file, then tab back into the game and have that effect the world.

When you first encounter the villain, I want to give players the option to literally just give up right away and it gives you a reasonably good ending.

I also want some characters to be directly aware of your GUIs. Sometimes they'll directly attack the GUI and potentially damage it. Another idea was if you die on a certain boss, you get a game over screen, but the boss will literally go to the game over screen and keep hitting you.

If you lose on the first encounter of the villain and have to reload, the villain recognizes your character when you try again, even though your character calls them insane and that they've never met. Then after your second or third loss, the villain leaves, muttering about how fighting forever isn't worth it and that they need to do something to stop the hero's respawn.

A really subtle trope I want to break is character order. Whenever your player character is in a party of other characters, and they collectively win a fight, it says "[your character's name] & party were victorious!". However, that even happens when your character isn't supposed to be the leader. I'd like to see a game say after a battle: "[the name of your sidekick] & party were victorious!" and completely marginalize the player character.

Characters must use the GUIs as weapons. Just go up and whack someone with their own HP bar. The more you use the weapon, the less power and shorter range it has!

The villain could use attacks based on your other, currently unused save files.

And maybe there can be puzzles where one save file effects another one of your current save files. You can jump between the save files for maximum value.

In every game romance, it seems like the player character is always the one to initiate and the other character is mind controlled into accepting that fact even if you're a horrible person.

Pretty standardly, I'd want to have the generally "good" path(s) and the generally "evil" path(s). And if you go about murdering everyone and being a massive jerk (ala a certain game...), you become a villain. But not just a villain, a video game villain. So, everything suddenly becomes really easy, but you lose the ability to respawn and save the game (outside of maybe a quick save feature in case you want to leave midway through) because you're now a villain. You don't have the Narrative's backing anymore. Then you fight the final boss for that path. And that boss is really easy. They only get in maybe one or two shots on you before you mow them down. But, they respawn and fight you again. And again. And again. Each time, slowly wearing you down. They can respawn infinitely because you're no longer the hero chosen by the Narrative. They are. Being a video game boss like Bowser or whatever would actually suck. The hero keeps coming back no matter how many times you kill them. You need to win indefinitely. The hero only needs to win once.

I want a more silly, idealistic world where the villain's idea of an "inescapable trap" is putting up a painted cardboard screen that says "Thank you for playing the alpha version of the game!" in the hopes that the player will fall for it and quit. So characters should be, at worst, neutral. But I'd probably want one, maybe two characters who are truly genocidal maniacs. That exploits the power of contrast for real shock value. And maybe they could serve as the final boss of one of the most peaceful routes as a final message of "you can't save everyone".

...

Seal. the. freaking. vents.

...

...

I'm also worried I'm just going to make a cheap Undertale ripoff. Thing is, I haven't actually watched enough to say if that's true...
Something something, play my game. I dare you. http://s15.zetaboards.com/DTG_Forums/topic/10508000/1/#new
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The_Nonexistent_Tazz
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First off, yeah, I'm getting an Undertale Vibe from basically the whole plot, so you'd be accused of ripoff even if it's not-or at least 'inspiration.' And NOT just from the plot either; Undertale ENJOYS ripping some tropes to shreds. In particular, two of three of the final bosses exploit save states, while the third basically exploits everything else and does crud that not even the player could do; said third boss (coincidentally the worst route's boss) is legitimately out to make you ragequit as he knows that death is merely an inconvenience to you; if you lose at one point in a certain boss battle, information you retain will allow you to skip to the 2nd, main phase immediately; using a cell phone on a conveyor belt will cause the text box of the character you call to slide off-screen, and cause the character talking to you on the phone to notice this and react; you can get a snowman piece from a snowman, and if you eat it later you can request another, but eating it RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM will cause him to react in disgust and prevent you from taking more; some characters DO retain knowledge of previous games, however little, and say things accordingly, including a character commemorating you on getting through an area safely, but commenting on your look if you actually died on the way there; whiffing an attack on a certain boss if you're going genocidal causes you to be kicked out of the genocide run because your heart didn't go into it; if you reset a genocidal run's data RIGHT BEFORE completing it, a certain someone will know and complain about it; keep petting a lesser enemy and (for some reason) its neck will extend up beyond the screen, then come back down, loop behind the text box, and go DOWN beyond the screen, with messages for every one; and perhaps most insanely, if you go into the codes, you can correct a typo and get easter eggs...Including data relating to a dummied out character who's comments about basically being thrown out of time and time being re-written. That guy was INTENTIONALLY dummied out for specifically the purpose of exploring the trope of being dummied out; canonically, he actually existed. Oh, and finally, Determination is basically that game's Narrative, at least in being the source of respawns (minor spoilers). In other words; Undertale does a lot of trope-ripping, and usually in silly ways. This plot synopsis, while distinct and different (especially with the tetris thing), is RIFE with an Undertale vibe at some points.

So, in other words, Toby Fox, how are you doing? :mspa: Yeah, though, seriously, I think you'll be accused of a ripoff if you release it too soon. I'd wait on this and let the juicy creative energies flow for a while to give this game a real memorable time.

I told you that you should play Undertale, and given what you wanted to make in a game, I'll mention it again; you'd be shocked by how much STUFF there is in it and how deep the rabbit hole goes. That's only a fraction. But that's just my personal opinion on the matter-the point is, you're going to have to make pains to differentiate this from Undertale if you're going that route. And you are. (Though the guy who keeps beating you up post Game Over is certainly a start)
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Talist
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Edit- I had a rather long, depressive defense of myself complaining about Undertale, but you know what? Forget it. If I want to make a game that gets compared to Undertale by everyone who thinks that Undertale copyrighted breaking the fourth wall, then fine. I don't care. I'll just wait several years for the massive hype to die down. That will be enough time for college. However, I will say that I probably used some of the same inspiration Toby Fox did, such as the Psycho Mantis fight of Metal Gear Solid. I just need to wait out Undertale I guess. And hope for no sequels.

I tried to go farther than Undertale without realizing Undertale was already there. Maybe I should go back to the original idea of a metroidvania. Still, I wish people would stop inadvertently reminding me of how great Undertale is and how it has already done everything better. But that's a selfish desire.

...

What about a four dimensional game? As in, four spacial dimensions. And if I want to make a game based on DTG, I probably should have just asked, what makes DTG fun?

Alternatively, once I'm ready to make the game, VR will probably be more of a thing. Something to exploit that?
Edited by Talist, Jan 11 2016, 01:10 PM.
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The_Nonexistent_Tazz
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Honestly, it's not that you probably couldn't try to do better (or at least do something GOOD), but an incredible amount of people are praising Undertale as the best thing since sliced bread (twin joked about a 9.5/10 on a review being a typo), and while it's VERY good and all that jazz, it's not SO incredibly good that something can't compete or even top it (Example: Digimon DID IN FACT come first, and technically Shin Megumi Tensei was the definite predecessor to Pokemon in terms of the 'Mon' genre of RPGS, but Pokemon is CLEARLY the more popular franchise by far and away in comparison despite being later than both). However, the reason why I said what I said is, well...You KNOW how people get: it's like they don't have brains on their heads, and the more popular something seems to get the bigger the Fan Dumb that comes with it (which differs from the legitimate fandom in, well, they're stupid to the point of cancerous effect), so there is no doubt that you'd have some base-breaking on this kind of thing no matter how you dice it.

Honestly, you could probably make a REALLY good game of this sort (especially if we go with that interesting patchwork/puppet /whatever style you mentioned above, which will probably help a LOT in differentiating it from the competition)-I was just cautioning you on this, because you said you were worried if this sounded like an Undertale ripoff, and while there are definitely parallels, the answer is a definitive NO. However, the accusations will exist and they WILL be heard, and they will NOT be talked down, whether they're the majority or not, and they will probably assume it is a ripoff without even looking at it-there's clearly differences, but given who will be shouting this stuff, it's probable that they won't even care.

Plus, this isn't wholly negative: While there's clearly a lot of stuff that this and Undertale share (even without consulting each other), Undertale's existence proves there is a MASSIVE market for this kind of stuff (if done right), so given the circumstances people would eat this up like candy. Plus, the more time to it, the better it gets, so I say, go for it regardless-any plan works where you give yourself more time to do this, as long as it can get done. (I will caution you: DON'T spend too much time on this, else it might never finish, if you understand what I mean.)
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pionoplayer
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un-retired plot tumor
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So, here's my thoughts on things: yes, it has some (a fair number) of Undertale-feeling vibes, but I remember watching a Youtube video about "How to Copy Undertale" and it talked about how even if people took the ideas in Undertale to make their own game, it could either turn out really well or really badly. In your case, I think if you put in the proper time it'll turn out really well.

The ideas you have here are pretty great, and although some people will call it an Undertale knock-off, I doubt there will be many, as the huge amount of hype will likely have worn off by then, and I can already tell from the things typed here that the graphics are going to be very different from Undertale's so there's that.

I like this idea, the fourth wall breaking seems like it'll be amusing, and Undertale may have the whole twist on respawning, but this game's twist is on the plot and the effect it has on the world around it. It'll take a lot of work, but if you do this, and do it all the way, it'll be the most amazing thing ever.


May I put in my own input? One of the similarities I'm noticing with this game is that it's going to seem very light-hearted at first. Unlike Undertale, it looks to me like you're not going to figure out how dark it really is until your second playthrough or so, or if you really go off looking for secrets.
Undertale sort of has a kind of progression to its endings, Neutral -> Pacifist -> Genocide. Were you planning on having your game's endings have a sort of semi-progression as well? Utilizing the reboots and such for the purpose of having a story that progresses across multiple 'playthroughs' rather than across the course from 'Start' to 'The End'. Undertale SORT of does that, but it still follows, for the most part, the conventional story arc logic.

Anyways, I suppose I'm talking myself in circles, so now I'm going to make a slightly selfish request:
Could we have characters from DTG appear? If Wilson and co. are going to be there, it would interesting to have parts of the rest of the cast make an appearance (with the blatant cross-over stuff removed or glossed over of course) especially with the ways your game is screwing with the basic ideas of plot. Some of our characters have good things they could contribute.
Engie: raw power, should be dominating the plot, but because of raw disinterest and the interference of the Narrative doesn't.
Split and Build: Simultaneously direct agents for the work of the Narrative yet completely averse to the path it plots out for them.
Tazz: direct agent of the Narrative, sort of sitting back and watching the whole thing unfold, knowing that as long as he keeps himself useful, he's safe.
Piono and Eric: Two different facets of trying to disrupt the Narrative, Piono attempting to do it through sheer force, Eric through subtlety and avoiding the prophecy.
Ire: Being the one wild card that ends up disrupting a lot of plans to fight the Narrative just from sheer unpredictability if you weren't involved in premeditating it.

Although most of them wouldn't show up until the darker parts of the plot begin to come up, I think it'd be cool to have some remnants. Sort of a Mythology Gag in character form.

But to sum up: I love this idea talist. I'd love to help if there's some way I could.
Yeah I got nothin.
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Redstonetam15
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Wandering Goddess
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I imagine this:

Fight <
Defend
Skills

14000 Damage.

1000 Damage Sustained.

Player: 8999/9999 HP 700/999 MP

Boss A 100000/1000000 HP
Edited by Redstonetam15, Jan 12 2016, 12:48 AM.
You are already dead.
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Talist
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Guy with all the talking animals
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@Tazz: Something that really disheartened me was reading the comments for a game called Pony Island. Both it and Undertale use the concepts of knowing it's a game and breaking the fourth wall. Apart from that, they are completely different games. One is a turn based RPG, one is a... a... um... point and click puzzle? Yet still, Pony Island was called an Undertale rip off. The timings don't even support that. Both of those games were in development for over a year. ... Should I not overestimate the intelligence of the average ravenous fanboy of anything?

The whole puppet thing was originally just because that would be easier to draw and animate. Like Paper Mario. But hey, it adds to the theming. What do puppets do? Be controlled.

And I do know Undertale has flaws. The biggest of course is that, technologically speaking (not the same as technically...), it's a really simplistic game. Sorry, but there are better bullet hell games with far more fleshed out upgrades available for free on Kongregate. And if I do play Undertale, it will probably be in several months time. I don't want hype or anything skewing my perceptions of it.

@Piono: So how do you badly copy Undertale?

Undertale seems to focus on the player's ability to reload. I wanted to focus more on the player's ability to retry. But from what Tazz said, sounds like Undertale does that anyway.

I did want to gate endings behind other endings. However, I'd need to figure out exactly what order to gate things in. ... Is each Undertale run basically one complete story? Maybe I can try to get each ending to just be one part of the story. As in, there are multiple versions of the world that sometimes interact. Plant a tree in one playthrough, and after getting 2 other endings, it grows. I'd have to change the backstory somewhat to fit that. Might be really hard to plan them all out given player choice. But that's something for when we have more defined character roles/backstory. I'll want to make up for the number of endings by having each run be rather short. Like, 2-3 hours. That way, I can make... maybe 5 or 6 endings before I go insane? I don't want the game's hour 'budget' of what I have to code in to go much higher than 15. Of course, the first 20 or 30 minutes minimum of each run would be the same story wise because the player hasn't made any decisions yet.

Heh... I probably will want to include other DTG characters. But I'm just thinking of how ridiculous it's going to look. In the text based DTG, it's fairly easy to ignore how small my characters are compared to everyone else, but here, we (might) have artwork. ... It would be the fox and the dragon against the panther and the wolf with everyone else being 3 times taller. At the risk of sounding egotistical and for the sake of clarity, I'll substitute out "protagonist", "villain", and all that with my character names. But I'll probably swap out all their names later.

ProtagonistA = Wilson
ProtagonistB = Cynder (I like these two the best)
Villain = Mikoto
OtherPerson = Inari/Gail

And here, following the Narrative is being in support of killing off Mikoto, which sounds like an inherently bad thing. I should add some pros for killing him.

I was thinking of having a character like Engie, but their role was kinda reduced to a gag. Engie should have some fort/base and where the front door is locked. There's a key in a convenient chest around the back... but it's to a completely different door. You literally can't get into the fort. I mean, why would someone put all the keys to their doors outside said doors?

@Tazz/Piono: I want to spend as much time as possible just thinking of ideas. As somebody whose name I forgot once said, "the best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas". Maybe starting planning so early isn't the right way to do it. I don't know. But that's the ADVENTURRRRREEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

...

I've started keeping a collection of index cards on my table. On them, I have a bunch of scrawled ideas about this game. This forum thread is basically acting as a bunch of digital index cards. So, I guess helping here is saying which of these ideas you like/dislike. I'll be honest, most of these ideas should be tossed out. If the only good idea from my other post (the big one) was the "boss attacking you on game over screen", then it was successful. And speaking of that, I think it's a good idea, but there needs to be something that the player can lose from that attack that isn't flat out "you lose forever".

@Redstone: ... I got another idea on how combat could work. And this is more... elegant than what I had originally. Let me try to describe how I envision a battle going with this system... Things I have in (parentheses) are obviously my own comments. The dividing lines marks new turns.

Spoiler: click to toggle


I've been thinking some more though. I should probably try to rethink the role of the player, which might help differentiate it from Undertale more. The first idea was seeing the player as some kind of external force. But what about implying that the player IS a character in game? Obviously not the player character/hero, but someone else. This might work in a few different ways...
MetroidVania Based


RPG based


More random ideas:

Maybe there should be 6 basic paths. Extrapolating from the concept of Might-Mind-Heart, they would be...

  • Maniac (pure Might)
  • Tyrant (Might + Mind)
  • Suppressor (pure Mind)
  • Rhetorician (Mind + Heart)
  • Pacifist (pure Heart)
  • Diplomat (Heart + Might)


Although, that would prevent the gating of endings. Possibly there should only be 3 endings because that would be far easier to make. But I could really try to focus on "one story through many plays" and have things like getting Maniac unlocks Tyrant, getting Suppressor unlocks Rhetorician, and getting Pacifist unlocks Diplomat.

As for boss ideas, how about a boss where you have to lose? Like, each time you die and respawn, the boss changes to a different phase where it's weak to different tactics. As you go on in the battle, your own power increases linearly, but the boss's power increases exponentially. So at first, you're (relatively) strong, but the boss catches up and you have to let yourself die to reset everything.

Or, taking that even farther, a boss who's attack power SUCKS, but you have to die anyway to get the non violent option. You're trying to kill yourself before the boss kills itself. ... I kinda got that idea from Pokemon ORAS. You can fight against Wally in front of a gym there and Wally is trying to prove himself, but his Pokemon sucks. So, the first time I encountered that, I purposefully threw the battle. ... Nothing special happened, sadly.
Something something, play my game. I dare you. http://s15.zetaboards.com/DTG_Forums/topic/10508000/1/#new
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insert_generic_username
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Quick comment: While it could sound good to have some convoluted method of obtaining a certain ending, it should either be a. foreshadowed well enough that people can find it, b. easy enough to come across as a natural extension of what the game can actually do/what you think you can do, or c. just put in some easily accessible part of the code, I guess.
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Redstonetam15
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I kinda based mine off the Epic Battle Fantasy style.
You are already dead.
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pionoplayer
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Basically, how you badly copy Undertale is by, well, trying to copy it. Rather than taking elements from the game and making your own thing, making an Undertale rip-off. Its sort of like how Halo runs with a lot of idea from other FPSs, but isn't a knock-off.

And yeah, for the most part each ending is its own story. One other character remembers those playthroughs, but for the most part, each ending is separate with a small thread connecting them.

As for the protagonists... I actually kind of like having specific characters in each of the roles, because that sets up potential for conflict in and of itself. In Undertale the character's personality is determined entirely by what choices the players make, if the players are still making all these choices, it opens up potential for conflict within the characters (perhaps have the final fight of an early genocide run be against Wilson and Cynder? They wouldn't be too keen on being forced to slaughter everything indiscriminately)

As for the size discrepancy, that can work in your favor too, since the focus is on your characters, rather than the other DTG types, the world could be centered on other such anthropomorphs and small, but intelligent animals. This makes it clear that the other DTG-originated characters are out of place and really not supposed to be there. Especially since because of the gated endings, some (or even most) wouldn't show up until the game had been 'beaten' at least once.

As for making lots of ideas, that is, in fact, a great idea itself. It really is. Once you have the huge platter of ideas you can start putting the game together, and if you end up having to scrap one idea but need something in its place, you have a massive stockpile of ideas that could be used. Its never to early to start planning so long as you make sure to eventually make the game.

The boss attacking you on the game over screen is pretty good too, perhaps it could be at the end of one of the paths where you have said boss attack you on the game over screen and losing to it nets you a reset, but counts as an ending in its own right separate from what happens if you win (with winning in or out of the Game Over screen netting you the same result, with slightly different dialogue) potentially with the capability to go straight back to that character and get such comments as "Back so soon?" or "Even that wasn't enough to stop you, was it?"

I like the idea of the combat system, I agree that think should affect attack as well, and that Mind and Heart need to be differentiated a bit more. They're three separate paths, but as is, it's currently a bit too easy to accidentally go the wrong way.

As for the IC/OOC explanation, the RPG one fits with the rest of the ideas that've been brainstormed much better, the metroid-vania one seems a lot like a cop-out. I'm not certain how you'd implement Inari/Gail though, (having Inari just always be the dead one probably works better since then you won't have certain problems like skewing the dialogue and being completely unable to change it for way too long and the like) although I do have this idea: Why not have Wilson AND Cynder being the starting characters. You had the idea that you wanted to challenge the trope of always listing the victory by the main characters' name, so why not have it so that there's not a single designated main character, but Wilson and Cynder are both designated main characters, with one or two of the endings having someone else hijack the spotlight near the end?

6 basic paths is an idea I like, that's a good starting place off of which to build the gated endings. I would posit a 7th though: Uncertain (All 3/no specialization) that would be either a bad ending, or at the very least a very ambiguous one as to whether or not you had any positive effect. Or maybe that would be difficult (maybe have the early, 'non-gated' endings not take very long to achieve?) or whatever. I still think you have time, either way. Having a large, sprawling game could be pretty impressive and would probably get a lot of people interested in it, regardless of false accusations of being 'an Undertale clone'

As for the boss, that's actually a really good idea. A boss you have to just persevere against, and another boss who can only be spared by dying to them repeatedly. Both of those are good ideas, file those away for safe-keeping.
Yeah I got nothin.
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