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Internet Pornography; A sin that needs to be talked about
Topic Started: 18 Aug 2009, 09:13 PM (12,572 Views)
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:ermm:
right thats daft
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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ARAZEC
19 Oct 2009, 05:48 AM
GREAT mwah too-except i had a cold last time i thought of it
your turn
While we're waiting for conradw's reply to your post, I'd like to pop a question of my own (there will be follow-ups to this one later).

q2: What makes you so sure that you've found the truth in Jesus and that you would not find the truth in Muhammad or Buddha?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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thats not a pop in question its a whole friggin testimony :D

Cause Jesus is my lord and saviour
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Okay, trying a different approach while I'm waiting for your testimony :P

q3: Why do you think I should be more convinced by your claim that Jesus is your lord and saviour than a Muslim's claim that Allah is the one true God, or a Buddhist's claim that Buddha gives the path to Nirvana?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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a2: I don't. I have friends who are Muslim and Buddhist, and the message of compassion is present in all these religions. There are, unfortunately those who would often obfuscate teachings of love with those of xenophobia, prejudice and intolerance, and that muddies the whole business. I don't have any difficulty saying that I am a Christian because of the culture I grew up surrounded by, and I hope that had I not grown up as a Christian, I would have searched out the same message of love that Jesus taught in any other culture. (My point is that you don't have to believe in Jesus to follow Christ - Some of the most "Christian" people I ever met were of other religions)

a3: Probably for the same reason I was: you too grew up in a culture where you saw more of Christianity than other religions. Maybe some of the practices of the belief system you followed were at odds with your conscience?
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@conradw: Care for a game of conkers? ;)

Unlike many of the other members of this site, I was not raised in the presence of a particular belief system (not even Humanism which is the world-view I presently find to be closest to my own). Of course my parents have their own beliefs and were not afraid to share them if asked, but they never presented it as the infallible truth, only their personal opinion. They had the honesty to answer "I don't know" when I asked questions which they could not answer and they've always encouraged me to find my own answers.

In school, most children I met could be described as "non-religious" and even those with a religious background were mostly secular to the point of not caring about their religion at all. I had the privilege of being allowed to choose to learn about all religions with equal weight in school. To me this was very similar to reading about fairy-tales from the old days, and I was quite surprised when I later truly realized that there are a large number of people who hold one of these stories to be true, and the others to be false.

I have since tried to understand what it is that makes people believe in things that are without, or contrary to, established evidence. Upbringing is of course important, but people also switch faith, they loose it or gain it depending on events in their life, so that can't be the whole story. This leads me to my question to you:

q1@conradw: Do you think there is a rational reason to believe in something supernatural?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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a1@concolor: I'm not sure at what level you're asking that, so I'll do my best to explain myself:
If you mean, could you rationally explain why people people believe in supernatural things? Maybe, I suppose it might be something like pareidolia where you see shapes you recognise in random patterns (such as in clouds), except applied more broadly... Richard Dawkins talked about this in terms of memes, and ideas with more potential for prorogation. i'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest - it sounds a little like psychological evolution (which snuggles up close to the line between science and speculation).

If you mean rational evidence for the supernatural, then I'm going to have to play the pedant, and say what you're suggesting is almost self contradictory. The moment something metaphysical impinges on the physical, then it is no longer supernatural, but natural. If we all saw and could interact with ghosts, I have no doubt that someone would have figured out how to turn them into a source of cheap labour (and they wouldn't be supernatural any more).
If you would like to ask if there is any evidence for the metaphysical, I would say yes. Just because we can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. I can't see wind (or Hitler for that matter) but I know about both by their effects. For the same reason, I believe in love and human rights, but also hope, hate, compassion, freedom, wisdom and others.
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solidrockcorps
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conradw
18 Oct 2009, 02:52 PM
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Cause you have never experience God like we have and im sorry for that.

You see, that's just not true. I have.

The things you're saying are the exact same things I would have said about 5 years ago. Well, going by some of the things you've mentioned before about demons and stuff, no I haven't experienced anything like that. I don't see dead people, or demons, or fairies.

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Lol first off God is the omnipotent one and He calls me Friend!

Yup. my point exactly: God calls you friend. He doesn't. He doesn't say "Hey, meet my friend solidrockcorps." He has never called you friend to anyone but you!
Have you talked to God? because if you dont hang out with him and talk to him how would you know?
"The World and its Desires pass away, but the Man who does the Will of God Lives Forever." 1 John 2:17

Dance Like David Did!


FOR WE ARE DESTROYED FOR THE LACK OF KNOWLEGDE
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conradw
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Okay, i could phrase this differently. God has never mention you to me. Why? Has he mentioned me to you? is he talking about me behind my back? :O!
Edited by conradw, 19 Oct 2009, 01:14 PM.
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Barabbas
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@conradw: Thanx for answering on both levels :D

I agree that it is important to distinguish scientific discoveries and established theories, from ideas put forward by scientists. Just as long as one keeps in mind that even if a scientist promotes an idea about gravity that turns out to be wrong, that does not mean gravity does not exist.

I completely agree with your assessment that the part of reality that can be investigated through empirical methods, and in my opinion one can know something about it rationally. In retrospect my question is not as well formulated as I first thought. However, I would say that for something supernatural (or it's effects) to be perceived it must interact with the natural world (BTW. this could be argued and that would be interesting). In that very moment it, or the part of it that interacts with the natural world would be natural, as we would be able to assert it's existence empirically.

But, why would you assume something to exist supernaturally if it has not interacted with the natural world?
And if you find that the fact that people have ideas about this supernatural entity is some kind of proof, or evidence of interaction with the natural world, does that mean you would believe in every fantasy ever depicted to exist in the supernatural realm? (Kinda like Fantasia in the Never Ending Story, but in a more serious way)
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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I don't think you can assume something to exist supernaturally if it hasn't or doesn't interact with the natural world. The sets of things that are "supernatural" and "exist only in the imagination" are pretty difficult to disentangle.

I think this is a reason why people (quite rightly) make a fuss about their Rights. A right is not something you can see, measure or quantify. It is something I could just invent out of thin air (I have the right to this parking space, it has been endowed to me by my creator). It is something that could be taken away from you without you even knowing it (he doesn't live on this street, he has no right to park here!).

But we choose to suspend our disbelief to the fact that these things called rights do not exist in any physical sense, and treat them according to their rights because of the fact that we all share the notion that we would not do unto to others what we would not have them do unto us.



So, to answer your question, it may be because some notions have more value to us than their physical existence.

... and so I have no shame in saying I believe in Father Christmas
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Barabbas
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@conradw: Ah, but simply because these rights are not physical entities that does not necessarily make them supernatural.
Take physical laws. They are not supernatural, in fact they are an integral part of the natural world, and still they are not physical entities.

I once believed in Father Christmas, even though I was to young to have kept any memories of what it was like (I've been told I truly believed). Now I believe this phenomenon to have a purely natural explanation, but even if I could not think of the exact explanation myself that noes not mean the explanation is supernatural. I'm not entirely sure of how they get the cream into Twinkies, but that does not mean I have any reason to supposed a supernatural agent is behind. Are there any properties of this world that leads you to believe there to be something supernatural, and if so why?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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See, When I say I believe in Santa, I'm talking about that spirit of giving and sharing that everyone enjoys at christmas time. He is a representation of the spirit of christmas (much like the statue of liberty).

I don't believe that feeling is anything but physical, however. Like I said before, you are your body. Even joy has a physical manifestation (even if it is difficult to observe).

As for properties of this world. Even the most hard-hearted old bastard couldn't hold a new-born without wondering, similarly the even most down to earth of us can't look lie on the grass looking at a starry night sky without contemplating whether there is another reality waiting to be explored.

Is that proof-positive? no. Is it enough? it is surprisingly often
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[/ If we all saw and could interact with ghosts, I have no doubt that someone would have figured out how to turn them into a source of cheap labour (and they wouldn't be supernatural any more).
quote] and
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I would say that for something supernatural (or it's effects) to be perceived it must interact with the natural world (BTW. this could be argued and that would be interesting). In that very moment it, or the part of it that interacts with the natural world would be natural, as we would be able to assert it's existence empirically.

But Con2 they have ! its called fortune telling or clairvoyance and i can assure you they make a packet ! and at that moment of taking a persons money they interact with the natural world assertion enough?
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Barabbas
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@conradw:
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the even most down to earth of us can't look lie on the grass looking at a starry night sky without contemplating whether there is another reality waiting to be explored.
I beg to differ. Some of us find more than enough awesomeness waiting to be explored in this reality :D

Please see the example in post #36 in this thread: http://s15.zetaboards.com/Godlimations/topic/6709701/3/
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Is it enough? it is surprisingly often
This is what really interests me. I get the feeling that you have a strong feeling/urge/need for there to be something other than the reality we can all experience (I may be misinterpreting though). To me it feels like this is causing you to blur the line between what belongs to this reality and what does not when you speak of concepts and feelings. I agree with you that the most plausible explanation is that joy and the spirit of Christmas is a result of physical processes in our bodies, but then where does the supernatural come in?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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