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the end days; will it be 2012
Topic Started: 6 Sep 2009, 03:21 PM (4,395 Views)
conradw
Goliath
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and why is being disrespectful of the bible a bad thing?
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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I would actually agree with ARAZEC that my reply was less graceful than I would normally expect from myself. I've edited it now.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Deleted User
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O.k i will talk about me so then we dont debate that i exsist
1 reason its a bad thing is....

Well- i value the Bible and i read it daily its an important part of my life not just a viewpoint - i would expect you to realise this from talking to me for a while now.
It hurts me when you be disrespectfull of the Bible.

i just read Concolors response about him beleiving morals come from empathy
thats a scarey thought in practise




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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Well my entire life is based upon the recognition that our rationality is our best tool for making sense of this world, that it is our only hope for a better and more moral world. You may not recognize it, but whenever you are claiming something to be more important than rationality, then you're peeing all over the faculty which I base every decision in my life on (figuratively speaking).

You and I value these things radically different. If we are to be honest with each other then we are bound to clash and hurt each other sometimes. The reason why I am in the debate section is because I'm hoping that I can learn something about my fellow humans that will make the endurance-test worthwhile.
Edited by Concolor, 1 Dec 2009, 08:35 AM.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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clash and hurt are very different

see i dont get hurt by you claiming anything about your views on rationality -

if you claim God is a figment of my imagination and you worship jello because its more important-im o.k with that

i get hurt when you say Gods word is #$%^& * as i have shared with you that i have a personal relationship with God -i dont get hurt that you dissagree with it or dont beleive the same thing as me-i get hurt because i love God.

if i loved you i would be hurt if someone said that comment about you.
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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When I was 5 years old, my mother told me about Santa Claus and all his ways (this is just one of the many times she explained it to me). Now I love my mom more than anything, but what she told me was complete and utter #$%^&*. You see, there is a difference between loving someone and thinking that everything they say is true.

There is also a difference between respecting someone and respecting what they say. I have the deepest respect for my mom, but I have no problems correcting her when what she is saying is wrong. Loving and respecting my mother does not in any way mean I have to treat what she is saying with any more respect than anything else in this world.

I know that my mom loves me, even though her story about Santa Clause was #$%^&*. And if someone else should say that what my mom says is #$%^&*, then I'd leave it to her to choose if she would get offended or not as my mom can fend for herself (which is one of the many reasons I respect her).
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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See, if you really get down to brass tacks, I think you'll find that some of the things I've said about the bible are much more offensive than what Concolor has.

For instance: "I worship God, not the Bible"
Doesn't that by implication mean some people do worship the Bible as if it were God?

What about calling Paul a bigot?

And saying the Old testament was written by goat herders?

I think I've been much more offensive than Concolor
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@conradw: For the record, I allowed myself to stand corrected on account of lack of elegance not offensiveness. As I've said before somewhere in this forums, there is a reason why it's called "taking offence" not "giving" it. It must be actively taken to be an offence.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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:-/ oh
no offence was taken-i lack the most elegance in speech

I would not say the Qur’an is a pile of dog poo to a Muslim on a Muslim forum because i would not want to be treated like that myself.

I know that its common knowledge Muslims consider it to be the divine word of God and a holy book.

if you cant identify with yourself it would be difficult to identify with someone other than you

It would be difficult to show empathy if you couldnt identify with someone.

If you identify with yourself the things which you would like afforded to you in most instances i think we mostly share similar higher desires-

i would like your coments on the following

I might like for you to kill me
You might like to kill me
You might like to die too
I might like for you to die









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conradw
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But what I want to know is why do you take offence at it. Both my and Concolors statements suggest that the bible is to a large degree (if not completely) untrue.
Why does that offend you? why do you have such an emotional attachment to the Bible?

I remember asking a similar thing to a Muslim when that cartoon issue was going around. There are so many other things, worthy things, to be outraged about - why do you all pick this?

I'm not suggesting the examples are identical but they are suggestive of each other. And I would like to know why!
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Concolor
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@ARAZEC: Does this mean that you respect and value the teachings of the Koran, or would you just lie about it if you were in front of a Muslim?

Because I honestly think that what the Koran teaches is not right. I think treating it's teachings as something to be put in high regard would be misleading and wrong. And if I said anything else to people I know who are Muslims I would be dishonest to them.

Is your example about euthanasia? Because I'm all for that.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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you and your empathy !

a person is a person
So would you tell Muslim ppl you know that the Koran is a pile of dog droppings?

Would ya?

i would not-in this way i respect the person

Would i then be aggreeing with exact and equivalent retribution as permitted by the Quram? No i would not

Did you go back and edit your post Concolor -change up the wording a bit?

like i said i would hope to aspire to treat others how i myself would want to be treated -
i wouldnt picket an abortion clinic and yell murderer at the doctors
does that mean i respect and value abortion?
No i do not

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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:
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So would you tell Muslim ppl you know that the Koran is a pile of dog droppings? Would ya?
I have, and would do so again. Why would I treat my Muslim friends any other than Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or non-religious?

But I will admit that I tend to be more freely spoken around my friends who are non-believers as I know that I can describe any piece of literature, no matter how dear to them, in any wordings I like without anyone taking it personally.

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i would not-in this way i respect the person
By lying to them?
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Did you go back and edit your post Concolor -change up the wording a bit?
Yes I did (as I said I would in post #167).

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like i said i would hope to aspire to treat others how i myself would want to be treated -
i wouldnt picket an abortion clinic and yell murderer at the doctors
does that mean i respect and value abortion?
No i do not
That is because we can tolerate some things even if we don't respect them.

If I had said "Abortions are great, I think everyone should have some." Are you quite sure that you would not call my statement a load of horse radish? What if I later revealed that I had been quoting my beloved mommy, or some ancient text I was worshiping?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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No Concolor thats not because i can tolerate Abortion-its because i would not want to be treated like that myself.

and No it does not mean i lie to my Muslim friends by not hurling profanities about there Holy Book-TRUTH IN LOVE is what its called....

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But I will admit that I tend to be more freely spoken around my friends who are non-believers as I know that I can describe any piece of literature, no matter how dear to them, in any wordings I like without anyone taking it personally.
Well think of something that you know is dear to your friends-i am hoping they have some passion for something worthwhile in their lives-now let me know what it is and also some severly insulting things you could say to them.....
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:
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No Concolor thats not because i can tolerate Abortion-its because i would not want to be treated like that myself.
Tolerance is to allow something to be even if you do not respect it. There are many reasons for tolerating things. The way I see it, you are tolerating abortion because you find it morally wrong to picket abortion clinics due to your empathy with the staff. If this is correct, then I think it is a truly admirable choice. I would add, however, that tolerating the fact that abortion clinics and their staff are operating does not mean you have to tolerate abortion in itself. There are perfectly morally permissible ways to fight abortion by means of voting and non-intrusive campaigns.
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And No it does not mean i lie to my Muslim friends by not hurling profanities about there Holy Book-TRUTH IN LOVE is what its called....
I don't quite get it. Is this like when Christians say they love gay people but hate the despicable, sinful abominations they do?
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Well think of something that you know is dear to your friends-i am hoping they have some passion for something worthwhile in their lives-now let me know what it is and also some severly insulting things you could say to them.....
Well a lot of my friends are really passionate about science, and in particular the specific field they are in. But it is hard to find something severely insulting I could say to them. There are many reasons for this, and I shall try to account for some of them:

Usually for a statement to be insulting, it must be taken so by the recipient. He/she must "take offence". This means I must find a statement which I think is true, which they must happen to take offence at. This is really hard. If I'm saying things about the thing they are passionate about, I can't be talking about them, but rather about the field they love. So they can't be personally offended (unless they're 5 years old and think that everything they touch is a reflection/extension of themselves). Even if I say that I think what they wrote in their thesis was the biggest pile of Koala shavings I ever laid my eyes upon, then I have just given them the excuse of a lifetime to talk about the topic they love the most.

They would go (and I have a friend who does this every time I call his bull-droppings) "AHA! I knew you'd say that! But this is why you're wrong..." and he would go on and on about each and every detail that could possibly be attacked. I would then have to, for each separate point, either counter, admit, or force him to acknowledge that he does not have enough facts yet to clearly support his point (which is a form of counter I guess). The closest I can aim for is to offend their intellect, by saying something really stupid. That could probably work, but they would rather laugh at me than be offended. Unless I tried to stick to my statement after they had explained to me exactly why that's the dumbest thing they have heard since last election. Then they would be worried about me, but that would also require me to lie to them, and I do not see any reason to do so.

Okay, I may have an example! If I think the color vomit-green is really ugly but my friend really loves it, I would definitely tell him exactly what I think his favorite color looks like. He would of course tell me it's a matter of taste and point out what my favorite color looks like (I'm sure there are ugly blue things as well). In the end we would have to choose a neutral color for the kitchen, or at least do rock-paper-scissors. Unless of course there would be rational reason to have the kitchen in one color or another.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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