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| An interesting paradox | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18 Sep 2009, 01:21 PM (5,798 Views) | |
Luemas
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5 Nov 2009, 07:50 PM Post #166 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Au Contraire. He does mind. You've read the Bible no? So I'm sure you've heard the verse, I am delaying my judgement, so that none would perish. And here's a thought, what if Satan doesn't have free will anymore? What if, he is forced to live in his actions as he is now and forever more, an accuser, a liar, a thief. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| Concolor | 5 Nov 2009, 08:10 PM Post #167 |
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Barabbas
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Then I don't see any reason why he should be allowed to to bad things, since it is no longer required that he has free will. I also do not see why one needs to be able to do bad things in order to have a free will. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 5 Nov 2009, 11:22 PM Post #168 |
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Deleted User
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what is your definition of free? |
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| conradw | 6 Nov 2009, 04:08 AM Post #169 |
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Goliath
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@luemas: then God is forcing him to be evil. What does that say about God? @Arazec: the point is that Concolor is making, I think is this: We don't truely have free will because we are limited in what we can do, however we do have enough free will to do bad things. If you argue that free will trumps everything else, then why don't we have free will fully and be able to create things with our minds for example. am I right? |
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| Deleted User | 6 Nov 2009, 05:41 AM Post #170 |
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well we do create things with our minds i really need him to define free ? if you have someone controlling your available options how do you call that free? would you like someone to marry you because they had limited available options? |
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| Concolor | 6 Nov 2009, 06:07 AM Post #171 |
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Barabbas
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Hm, what do you mean by that? Technically, I'm not the one who is claiming us to have free will so I shouldn't really come with any definitions. But I think one of these would fit best with something I would call free will: 1. Free will could be to have all conceivable options available to us at all times, while we can freely choose between them. I do not see this in my experience of reality, as I can conceive of options that I cannot do (like turning the elderly purple with my mind or drawing a square circle). Therefore if this is free will, I would say I don't think we have it. 2. Free will could be to be able to choose freely between at least two options. One can argue that different situations could perhaps offer various degrees of freedom. This type of free will sounds to be to be at least possible as it would not immediately contradict my experience of reality. If someone was to marry me then they would indeed have limited available options. They do not know every alternative husband on the planet, so their choices are limited to the group of people they've already met. Luckily for me I would be the most lovable one in that selection ![]() @conradw: Yes, I think I meant something like that
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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Luemas
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6 Nov 2009, 06:57 AM Post #172 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Then again, there's the whole, responsibility for your actions. Think Jeopardy. At the end, for Final Jeopardy, they all lock in their votes and how much they are gambling. Think of it as Satan has locked in his vote. He made the choice, not God. He chose to rebel against God. God didn't say, rebel against me and ruin my creation. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| Concolor | 6 Nov 2009, 07:03 AM Post #173 |
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Barabbas
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Se he does not have the choice of accepting Jesus as his savior and repent? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 6 Nov 2009, 07:05 AM Post #174 |
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Goliath
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But he won't allow Satan to change his mind? In your example of Jeopardy, it is God who has Locked in Satan, and won't allow him to stop ruining his creation. Or is God unable to allow Satan to change? |
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Luemas
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6 Nov 2009, 06:40 PM Post #175 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Uh, no Satan cannot accept Jesus. Jesus was sent to die for mankind. He was given a flesh body in which to live as a human, but perfect, unlike one, and to die for them. So he purged the physical world of sin, but not the spiritual world. And GOd the spirit cannot die, so therefore, Satan cannot accept Jesus. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| conradw | 6 Nov 2009, 08:21 PM Post #176 |
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Goliath
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See, I've never thought of that before, but the threat of hell means nothing to Satan. "you better accept Jesus or your sins will condemn you to hell" - "you mean here?" "umm yeah, I suppose so." |
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Luemas
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6 Nov 2009, 11:34 PM Post #177 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Ah, but now we get into the duality of Hell. IS it merely the underworld where you are tortured for your sin? Or who knows, maybe it's the last act of mercy from rebelling against God. But then, theres the Lake. Of. Fire. Or Gehenna, which is ever burning, continuously. Satan isn't in Hell, but he will be in Gehenna. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| Deleted User | 7 Nov 2009, 01:59 AM Post #178 |
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oh my gosh....conc.....what a load of .......anyway you have a free will and you have options you and you get to choose.....if you choose to reject Jesus and his free gift of eternal life so be it.....if you blame God for Satans rebellion and the birth of sin....its your choice.....if you dont beleive you have a free will then continue in your disbeleif...in the end you will always do what you really want to do.... |
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| Concolor | 7 Nov 2009, 06:02 AM Post #179 |
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Barabbas
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oh my gosh....ARAZEC.....what a load of ....... ( ) anyway I interpret you post as going with my definition #2 of free will, in which it is not necessary to be able to choose between all conceivable options, only at least two. So my question still stands unanswered: Why does God make it possible for me to stab the old lady rather than to just offer me different ways of helping her?And yes, to me the birth of sin the way it is portrayed in the Bible really seems to be the work of God. Also "Jesus' free gift" doesn't sound so free to me. You have already told me that I need to give up my rationality and accept Jesus on blind faith. But my rationality is one of the most precious things I have. Rationality has given us science and modern medicine, it has given us the very technology we're using right now to communicate across different continents at the blink of an eye. Why does Jesus need an exception from the scrutiny we apply so successfully to all other aspects of life? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 7 Nov 2009, 07:01 PM Post #180 |
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Goliath
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*waves desperately* I don't think you have to give up your rationality. What about embracing the bit that isn't rationality? Like poetry, and gratuitous violence, and sweeties. Poetry has given us "Behind Blue Eyes" and "Sound of Silence." Gratuitous violence gave us films like 300 and music like the Offspring, and sweeties are yum! I recognise you might disagree with my examples, but I'm sure there are things you would irrationally cherish as much as you rationally cherish science and medicine. I would not be without the hymm "I heard the voice of Jesus say" - some say its cheesy but I love it. Similarly I would not be without the BCG vaccine (possibly literally - TB is still a massive killer). You might take the latter over the former (and I'd probably agree with you), but it is for me a terribly close run thing. Don't get me wrong though - if its not your bag, then its not your bag. But if I have any advice to give you, Apologetics is not the answer. It does has some wisdom to share about biblical criticism instead of approaching the bible and their beliefs rationally and without presumptions, they tie themselves into knots trying to prove something they're forcing their text to say. |
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) anyway I interpret you post as going with my definition #2 of free will, in which it is not necessary to be able to choose between all conceivable options, only at least two. So my question still stands unanswered: Why does God make it possible for me to stab the old lady rather than to just offer me different ways of helping her?
6:46 PM Jul 10