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| An interesting paradox | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18 Sep 2009, 01:21 PM (5,791 Views) | |
| conradw | 26 Nov 2009, 01:15 AM Post #271 |
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Goliath
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what about if we have evidence that it must exist, but none that it does? Sort of like Uranus? |
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| Concolor | 26 Nov 2009, 03:42 AM Post #272 |
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Barabbas
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The hypothesis of Uranus' existence gives falsifiable predictions about the movement of other celestial bodies affected by it's gravitational field. These predictions have been shown to be accurate, and so we count Uranus as a planet. Had this hypothesis NOT produced falsifiable predictions, then supposing Uranus to exist would be the same to propose the existence of a tea-pot half way between the Earth and Mars. Who are we to say what MUST exist? I agree that some things demand an explanation, but that does not mean that we have found one, or that we ever will. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 26 Nov 2009, 09:35 AM Post #273 |
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Goliath
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Well if all the available evidence points to it, and models based on its assumption are found to be accurate even though it hasn't been directly observed, is it then natural or supernatural? I think an example I'm hinting at includes the Higg's Boson, but I could be wrong |
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| Concolor | 26 Nov 2009, 11:14 AM Post #274 |
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Barabbas
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Evidence for the Higgs boson has not been found yet, so I wouldn't count it as a part of the natural world. I would count it as a scientific hypothesis though, which is a lot better than most other things that are not counted as part of the natural world. Good enough to build a large Hadron collider to see if it really is natural. Almost nothing is directly observed, all I demand is clear, verifiable evidence. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 26 Nov 2009, 06:49 PM Post #275 |
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Goliath
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but wait. you mean REALITY depends on whether or not the evidence is there? The Higgs boson, if it exists, exists whether or not we find evidence for it. Whilst we may have to base our decisions on observable evidence, this does not impinge on the objective truth of the matter |
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| Concolor | 26 Nov 2009, 07:14 PM Post #276 |
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Barabbas
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What I mean is that I cannot count it as being part of reality until I see evidence. But we are touching upon the interesting discussion of whether or not "truth" really exists. Frankly I don't know, simply because there is no way for me to get empirical evidence from a world I don't exist in. Of course I do assume objective reality to exist regardless of the presence of me, on the basis that the world doesn't disappear when other people die. It COULD be because they're not real either, but I see no reason to suppose I'm special. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 28 Nov 2009, 03:19 AM Post #277 |
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smoke weed much ? Come on Conc Surely you dont want to debate Paradigims thingo thingys ???.... and you ARE VERY SPEACIL but your truth will depend on how you thinketh..... thats why Christians have a high five "Witness !" when the truth is spoken- but what you are saying is that evidence from a witness is unverifiable? What about several? in your court of law on to yourself ? |
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| Concolor | 28 Nov 2009, 09:11 AM Post #278 |
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:No I refrain from using all drugs like narcotics, alcohol, tobacco, hypnosis, religious and political ideology, because I want to experience reality to the fullest i can possibly get without altering it before it enters my mind. Exactly. A witness is among the most unreliable evidence which is used in our courts today, and I think that solely relying on a witness in a court of law is a horrible practice if it ever occurs. As humans we are fallible, easily manipulated by ourselves or others and our memory is closer to a dream-factory than a hard-disk. Countless experiments have shown people to recall events that have not happened at all, or that have happened in completely different ways than what they later seemed to remember. Also, their perception of the event may give a completely wrong image of what was really going on (which is the basis for all sitcoms and romantic comedies). And all this is when we assume that the witness is doing it's best to tell the truth with no ulterior motives or even the slightest bending of the truth for any reason. This is why the scientific method relies on independently verifiable evidence, and not on hearsay, anecdotes or personal experience. Errare humanum est. It is human to fail, so why wouldn't you or I fail when we thought we saw or experienced something? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 28 Nov 2009, 07:19 PM Post #279 |
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and this is why the New Testament has so many accounts of Jesus by different authors and witnesses i agree with everything you said about a witnesses unreliability-so when so many different ppl from so different backgrounds and places upbringings etc.. atest to the same version of events it holds truth. My God- We agree on something
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| Concolor | 28 Nov 2009, 08:41 PM Post #280 |
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC: You and I agreeing on something is surely an event that would shake the earth to it's very core, but alas this is not such an occasion. Firstly, a lot of people can be wrong at the same time. Right now a lot of people think the world will end in 2012, just like loads of people thought it would in 2000. UFO-sightings often have several people thinking they have seen the same thing when they describe little green men etc. which can be explained by group suggestion. And millions of people voted for Bush as president of the US. Having large amounts of unreliable testimonies does not mean you actually have any evidence, just like having huge amounts of manure does not mean you have a diamond. Also, you are assuming that all the statements about people seeing this and that in the new testament can be treated as factual. I think that is highly unlikely when you take into account that these stories first survived as hearsay, then were written down and afterwards revised and edited to fit what the Bible-makers of the day wanted to be the final story (which is why the Catholic Bible has a lot of texts that are not in the Protestant Bible). In addition there are blatant contradictions even in the New Testament, so how could you treat it as given truth? (Se the two different deaths of Judas) |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 28 Nov 2009, 11:12 PM Post #281 |
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Well thats where your a bit confused we are not talking about a heap of ppl thinking they are right but being wrong-like beleiving Bush we are talking about Jesus-firsthand witness accounts of his time on earth-a past fact THAT WERE ALL WRITTEN WITH-IN 60 YEARS OF THE EVENT-now if they were made up or altered there would be too many eye witnesses to contradict them and they would not survive. unreliable as eye-witness accounts are they still are the first rate globally accepted best means for historical information of events used to date-and Luke is regarded as a first rate Historian - Sorry Conc-we arent talking about conjectral or circumstantial evidence -which exsists too but eyewitness evidence which is valid in a court of law-but not valid for Concolor??? wait..............was that the earth moving under my feet???? |
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| Concolor | 29 Nov 2009, 09:21 AM Post #282 |
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Barabbas
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If the account of an eyewitness is valued higher than a mass amount of conflicting, but internally consistent, independently verifiable evidence then I would most certainly count that as miscarriage of justice. I do not know if this has ever happened, but I would count it as a great tragedy if this occurred. Also, you seem to have a very simplistic view of both how the gospels were written, and how the Bible came together in general. Are you really suggesting that Mark, Matthew and John walked around conducting interviews with first-hand eye witnesses to every event in the New Testament? How did they find all those guys? Did people really live for 60 years back then (which I also think is a rather short time-estimate)? And even if they did, would you really trust the account of someone describing something that happened 60 years ago? And especially taken into account that this must have been events that stirred up a lot of commotion, thereby making a huge emotional impact on the people who were there, and when emotion comes in rationality and objective recollection is out the window. If, however, these stories survived through oral delivery from one person to the next, you can just imagine a game of chinese whispers going on for 60 years. Don't worry ARAZEC, the earth is not going anywhere anytime soon. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 02:23 AM Post #283 |
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i think the earth is moving except its crumbling all around your arguement with the "wiki" references you may think i have a simplistic view of the bible and how it was written ......but hey thats your opinion You can be assured that the accounts of JESUS's LIFE AND WORKS were also reported by those that were strongly opposed to him-yes by non-beleivers like you !!! and i said they were reported with-in 60years of the event not that they were 60 year old recollections. Luckily there is a mass amount of verifiable evidence along with the eyewitness accounts that prove that the miscarriage of Justice happened when the son of God was crucifyed
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| conradw | 30 Nov 2009, 06:03 AM Post #284 |
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Goliath
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you suggest that there are a lot of sources. Can you be more specific? |
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 08:28 AM Post #285 |
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can you be more specific about which specifics theres a plethora of information available |
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6:46 PM Jul 10