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| Tweet Topic Started: 20 Oct 2009, 09:52 PM (5,190 Views) | |
| conradw | 30 Nov 2009, 10:06 AM Post #136 |
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Goliath
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post number 116. Okay. so I ask again, what if any is the purpose of emotion? Could it be to direct our rationality? I may (arationally) believe that peanut and sardine sandwiches are yummy. So when I'm in the shop, I get bread, peanut butter and sardines. and then i eat a sandwich - which is what I call good. but you mentioned a morality being a broader goal - care to explain what you mean by that? |
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| Concolor | 30 Nov 2009, 11:05 AM Post #137 |
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Barabbas
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@conradw: Ah, I was trying to emphasize how rational discourse was a means through which to understand and make sense of the world around us, as opposed to poetic descriptions of emotions which is a means through which one can make others feel similar emotions depending on their empathic alignment with the author. I don't see any reason to suppose a purpose behind emotions. That does not mean there are no reasons behind them. To suppose that emotions should direct our rationality sounds to me (though I may misunderstand) that it's a good idea to punch someone in the face during a discussion just because you feel like it. What I'm saying is that though that feeling may be entirely unhelpful and serve no purpose in the situation that you are in at that moment, there might be a perfectly good reason to feel such things in general. If we never felt angry at anyone then those people could walk all over us and take whatever we have. If the situation was that he was a murderer trying to kill you, the feeling would align with the rational course of action in that case. As I've said before, the recognition of the different emotions in play in a given situation forms part of the basis for making a decision on how to handle the particular situation. As far as the rationality is concerned the fact that you like sandwiches or feel hunger are in the same category as the fact that you know a supermarket down the way, and that you have enough money to buy the required ingredients. As I've said before I view the emotion of empathy as the source of our morals, and thereby I view the endeavor to use our rationality to satisfy our empathy whenever it is useful to be what I would call "morality". |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 07:45 PM Post #138 |
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then what tells you when its usefull to use empathy as a source of morals? |
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| Concolor | 1 Dec 2009, 08:10 AM Post #139 |
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Barabbas
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Firstly, I see no other alternatives. As conradw pointed out, the only reason he follows parts of the Bible is because it already coincides with what his feelings of empathy tells him is right. My point is that if we blindly follow our feelings of empathy in any case, we may sometimes do more harm then good. If we give all our food to the first hungry puppy we see, that leaves no food for the other hungry puppies out there. By using our rationality we can try to portion out this food so that as many puppies can have food as possible. But the most important point is that this is NOT an easy, simple rule to follow. This approach means we have to constantly investigate if what we are doing is really giving the best results. Sometimes we don't know enough to make a perfect judgement of this. Sometimes we make the wrong judgments. Knowing the right thing to do is sometimes easy, but often hard. My approach is not foolproof. But it's the best approach I've seen so far. And putting a sticker over the whole complexity of the problem of morality by saying "here's an easy fix" is something I would consider immoral. The golden rule falls apart as soon as you find a guy who wants to be raped by a woman. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 1 Dec 2009, 12:56 PM Post #140 |
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Goliath
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thats to be complete i have to add '... if you were in their place'. otherwise I could say, I want your sandwich, so if I were you, I'd give it to me. The problem with your example is you can't by definition want to be raped - as soon as you do, it ceases to be rape (however much it might resemble it). |
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| Concolor | 1 Dec 2009, 02:00 PM Post #141 |
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Barabbas
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@conradw: That depends on your definition of rape and opinion on human psychology. But I do see your point, and agree that the sandwich example is a better one. But you don't find the "...if you were in their place" in the Bible do you? Not in most other religious text either where the Golden Rule appears. Because it is this sentence that introduces the use of our native empathy and the rationality needed to use that empathy to construct a view of how their place really is like for them. And we can fail in that, we can misunderstand how it really is like to be them and we can treat them wrongly. It is no longer a foolproof fix-all solution. Is there a foolproof fix-all solution at all? Well if there is I haven't found it. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 1 Dec 2009, 04:16 PM Post #142 |
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Well we all stumble upon many morals on our Journey. |
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| Concolor | 1 Dec 2009, 04:45 PM Post #143 |
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Barabbas
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Yes, but some are written in stone and can never be improved. Fortunately almost no one follow those in practice, but many think that they do. And when they think this they can sometimes be persuaded to actually follow them as written, which is somewhat disturbing to me at least. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 1 Dec 2009, 07:09 PM Post #144 |
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Do you mean the ones written in stone by God on Mt Sinai? i am pretty happy with them Are there any you dont agree with ? |
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| conradw | 2 Dec 2009, 03:26 AM Post #145 |
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Goliath
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i think the addition i make is implicit in the statement itself, and only for pedants like me needs to be clarified. #142: I couldn't agree more. the bits i don't like is the part were it starts talking about the punishment for breaking these laws. As a great Pirate once said: They're more like Guidelines anyway |
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| Deleted User | 2 Dec 2009, 07:49 AM Post #146 |
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My question was which of the comandments from mount Sinai does anyone have a problem with? i tend to cut it short to the meaningfull parts so i cant see your anwser to that question with-in your addition
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| Concolor | 2 Dec 2009, 10:51 AM Post #147 |
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC: I have a problem with all commandments written in stone. Whether they are from mount Sinai, the sermon on the mount, gold tablets dug up in the US, deliverings from Allah, scribblings by Marx and Engels or small red books from a chairman. It is the fact that they are unchangeable that is the problem to me. Unchangeable = unimprovable. Are you quite certain that these are the best rules we could ever need, no additions or changes ever required? What do they say about copyright laws, oil-rights or multinational companies handling of trade deficit-related bankruptcies? And if "short and simple" is the theme, what about 1.You shall not kill, 2.You shall not take what is not yours, 3.You shall not be dishonest. That should cover most of it shouldn't it? A lot easier to memorize too? We could even throw in an improved version of the Golden Rule with all the space we've cleared out ![]() Also: You shall not kill. Better go vegetarian then? No wait, plants are living beings as well. It must mean "You shall not kill other people" then. Can we change it so it makes more sense? Nope, written in stone, we'll just hope that everyone interprets it so it gives the best results and never misuse it for anything. But what if one raving maniac is trying to kill my family and I can stop him with a thorough blow to the head? For some reason it seems right to sacrifice him in order to save so many innocent, but then again I would be breaking a very clear rule if I did... |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 4 Dec 2009, 03:37 PM Post #148 |
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Try to pull your Faith Basher blinkers off for a second and lets get this straight- The ten Comandments -these are basic morals that Christian,Islamic and Jewish laws are built on you can get what you call your definitian and improvement from these laws -so these principals should remain and yet change with mans imput. What are your Atheism Comandments? anything new? I have a feeling anything Good (not evil) will either come from these or what Jesus added or can be traced back to them some respect. |
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| Concolor | 4 Dec 2009, 05:08 PM Post #149 |
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:Ah, so we are NOT to treat the ten commandments as absolutes, but rather inspiration for constructing our own rules. Well I have no problems with that at all. I must have misunderstood you. Remember that I said I have a problem with rules written in stone, because they are unchangeable. Now I know I don't have to care about the rules handed down at mount Sinai because they have already been changed to more useful rules. By the way. Are these improved rules different for each Christian, or is there a consensus on what the new rules are? Well, first of all. I just spent about a day's worth of ranting in this forum about how commandments are of little use as they usually function as a snapshot of the moral landscape of the time they were written and since need to be changed, as well as their tendency to make things look simple which are in reality extremely complex. Secondly. How on earth could there be any Atheism Commandments? Atheism is the lack of belief in a personal, supernatural entity. It's a position, not a system of beliefs, or morals, or a life view. It's like your asking the not-collecting-stamps-club about what their rule-book says about crossing the street. Crossing the street has very little to do with not collecting stamps. You should rather ask me for Humanistic Commandments, as I happen to count myself as a Humanist. Now, of course many humanists would claim something similar to what I have said about trying to sum morality up in a set of certain rules being too simplistic. I did, however, find a guy on the internet who had made 10 rules he thought were nice, and for the time being I think they're quite nice too, except for the first one of course: 1. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you 2. Preserve things of beauty for future generations to enjoy 3. Never stop learning and growing 4. Be tolerant and open-minded 5. Question authority 6. Make decisions based on reason and facts, rather than superstition and hope 7. Tell the truth 8. Resolve conflicts with dialogue rather than violence 9. Oppose injustice 10. Don't discriminate based on race, gender, or religion Actually, they can be tracked way further back. Most religions before this time had moral rules as well, and a lot of them were quite similar. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 5 Dec 2009, 03:50 AM Post #150 |
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no as usual you misunderstand me-or rather choose to try to convey my words to mean what you think justifyes what you want me to be saying i did not say you dont have to care about the ten comandments and did i say that the way laws have come from them is either good or bad-No you see Gods Ten Comandments are from God -and as i have said God is Good-so these are for our own Good-its when man corrupts and changes and adds that things go awry. So an athiest only has non-beleif as a set of unchangeable beleifs? cause i guess if that beleif changed you wouldnt be an athiest so you are pretty strict too..... So you quoted another persons rules what about your own-you do that a lot ive noticed- |
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