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All religions
Topic Started: 20 Oct 2009, 09:52 PM (5,188 Views)
conradw
Goliath
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Are you sure this is the only way for an all powerful being to forgive me?

does that mean he's not all powerful?
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@conradw: That's my line, stick to your side of the fence :P (<- smiley denotes sarcasm/irony)
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Deleted User
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An all powerfull fair and just God who created us knows whats best for us and loves us...
seems all right by me
But i trust God so wether theres infinate ways or not i rest assured in his plan.... :thumbs:
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Junior
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Brother-in-law of Soul
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Concolor
 
But Jesus is God. Why does Jesus have to cover my sin in his own eyes. Couldn't he just cover his own eyes in the first place?
No, because then the entire "rules" thing would be moot. I suppose that's the reason that one chooses to be atheist in the first place. They want to do whatever they want guilt free. I've known you for quite a while now, concolor. You're a law abiding, all around nice guy. Why are you trying so hard to do away with the laws you obey on a daily basis any way?
Call it what you want
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conradw
Goliath
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oh you're right about one thing. Christianity is really good at laying on the guilt!
Look how imperfect you are! look how unworthy you are! Jesus DIED because of your sinning!
You... killed... Jesus...

Now don't you feel indebted to him?

My point? I don't think guilt is a good reason to do anything. Least of all believe in God. And if God has to guilt you into believing in him, well that doesn't really speak well of his divine majesty.
What C S Lewis and others try to do is sell you the cure by convincing you that you're sick. You're trying to say I don't believe because I don't want to feel guilty. I'm saying there's often no reason to feel guilty except that you believe you should*.

Can't you see how happy you'd be if you could marry whomever you wanted, loved whoever came into your life, sleep in on a sunday morning and laugh at any joke?

---------------
*except i do believe. go figure
Edited by conradw, 10 Dec 2009, 12:34 PM.
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Deleted User
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but its NOT true
you think you would be happy doing everything you want when you want and with no rules or restrictions-but from my experiance it leads to unhappiness and discontent

and i still love who ever i want and laugh at whatever jokes i want...and i believe...go figure!

God is not into condemnation-thats from the other bloke !

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Junior
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Brother-in-law of Soul
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So, you think I should stop believing in God because I should have guilt? You're giving me guilt about not having guilt. You're blaming me and my God for not letting you do whatever you want whenever you want? Grow up. Life's all about doing things you don't want to do. Just because you do those things you don't want to do in the name of God doesn't make them any different...

Example:

Don't you see how happy you'd be if you didn't have to do what your boss told you to? If something more fun came up, you could drop what you're doing? What if you could sleep in instead of going to work? Oh, you have to do those things? Blame your boss. He should feel guilty for making you work. Oh, you have to feed your family? Screw them. Life's about doing what you wanna do, right?

But you still have to do it. *pant* *pant* no more rants. I'm spent.
Call it what you want
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conradw
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Junior, that's exactly my point:

Life is full of enough REAL reasons to not be able to do anything you wanted. Including, but not limited to, your own conscience.

Incidentally, as far as life is about doing what I want to do - well I don't have a family to feed: that is not an accident!
Also, I love my work. I wouldn't give it up for the world. Seriously.
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Junior
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You know, you're right. Rape pillage and steal as much as you want. Who's holding you back? Do what you love. In fact, screw your conscience, screw morality, because we all know God doesn't exist. Don't let me tell you what to believe. You can get lung cancer, and STD, go to jail, whatever as long as you feel good for that one teeny moment.



*COUGH sarcasm COUGH*
Edited by Junior, 10 Dec 2009, 04:16 PM.
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Junior: Not to disturb your ongoing discussion with conradw, but you did ask me some questions so I'll just jump into the debate as well :)
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Concolor
 
But Jesus is God. Why does Jesus have to cover my sin in his own eyes. Couldn't he just cover his own eyes in the first place?
No, because then the entire "rules" thing would be moot.
Well I guess what I'm saying is that, if Jesus is God, doesn't that make the whole thing moot anyway?
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I suppose that's the reason that one chooses to be atheist in the first place. They want to do whatever they want guilt free.
I really can't speak for anyone but myself as to why one does not believe in a personal supernatural God, or in particular the God of the Bible. For my own sake the reason is quite simple. When I was born I didn't have a belief in any particular God. Since none of my parents believe in the existence of a particular God they never told me that I should believe in one either. From my parents and my school I learnt about lots of religions and all their different Gods, but I never heard any resons why I should believe in any of them. I was actually a little surprised when I was told that all of the Gods I had learnt about had a group of followers who believed that their specific God was real and that all the others were not.

When I heard their arguments (and when I got older I also heard them from people who believed in them as well) I was always more convinced of the arguments they had that the other Gods were false than the arguments that their God was the one true God. So far I have yet to learn of a God whose existence would make the world that I live in and experience make more sense than my current impression that none of these Gods actually exist.
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I've known you for quite a while now, concolor. You're a law abiding, all around nice guy. Why are you trying so hard to do away with the laws you obey on a daily basis any way?
Thank you. I must say that I see you as a nice guy as well, and I am impressed that you do not have more against atheists after the number of idiot atheists you have undoubtedly encountered.

To answer your question, I'm not really following the laws of the God of the Bible. I'm following the same moral laws as all people do, regardless if they are Buddhists, Hindus, Catholics, Protestants, Atheists or Zeus-worshippers. I probably have a different interpretation of the laws of the God of the Bible than what you do, but they way I read them they don't make much sense. Take "You shall not kill" as an example. I've killed at least five or six ants today by stepping on them (not on purpuose), and the meatballs on the pizza I ate means I've contributed to the death of at least one cow. Yet I disagree that there is supposed to be something wrong with this.
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Just because you do those things you don't want to do in the name of God doesn't make them any different...
Actually, to me they are. I do lot's of things that do not give me immediate gratification and abstain from many acts that would, but this is usually because I think that this will be better for other beings and myself in the long run. And to me, both myself and other people are part of the reality in wich my actions take place, and so they will be affected by my choises in this reality and therefore I am morally obliged to consider this as I choose my actions. But in my reality, I have not found any reason to believe that there exists a personal supernatural God, and so I do not believe that any such Gods should have to be considered as I choose my actions.
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Rape pillage and steal as much as you want. Who's holding you back?
I'm the one who's stopping me from doing these things. That's what makes me a moral person. If the only reason I don't rape and pillage is because someone is threatening to punish me if I do, then he's the moral person and I'm just some selfish individual who's only consern is to avoid punishment. Let me ask you this: If God told you "Junior, you can rape, steal and pillage if you want to. I will not punish you or hold you responsible in any way. Oh, and allowing you this is part of my great plan, I move in mysterious ways as you know." Would you actually go ahead and rape, pillage or steal? I don't think you would, even if God did not forbid you to do these things.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Junior
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Brother-in-law of Soul
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Quote:
 
I'm the one who's stopping me from doing these things. That's what makes me a moral person. If the only reason I don't rape and pillage is because someone is threatening to punish me if I do, then he's the moral person and I'm just some selfish individual who's only consern is to avoid punishment. Let me ask you this: If God told you "Junior, you can rape, steal and pillage if you want to. I will not punish you or hold you responsible in any way. Oh, and allowing you this is part of my great plan, I move in mysterious ways as you know." Would you actually go ahead and rape, pillage or steal? I don't think you would, even if God did not forbid you to do these things.
That's the point I was trying to make to conradw! Thanks for interpreting it the way you did. I'm surprised you don't have a stronger grudge against me as well. There are so many idiots on both sides, but anyway, I digress. Morals entwine with God, as does science, but there can be science without God, and morality without God.

What leads me to believe are the daily experiences. The simple things like the wind in the trees, or the chirping of the animals. But there are also complex things. Four church going people that simultaneously develop stage four cancer, and after the prayer and support of the community, are healed. There are so many things that I experience God in. I really hope you have that same opportunity.
Call it what you want
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Junior:
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Morals entwine with God, as does science, but there can be science without God, and morality without God.
I didn't quite get this one. I thought you meant that there could be no morality if there was no God?
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What leads me to believe are the daily experiences. The simple things like the wind in the trees, or the chirping of the animals. But there are also complex things. Four church going people that simultaneously develop stage four cancer, and after the prayer and support of the community, are healed. There are so many things that I experience God in. I really hope you have that same opportunity.
Thank you, as you probably live an enjoyable and fulfilling life I appreciate your wish that I can also live an enjoyable and fulfilling life (which in my opinion I allready do, if not I would of course live it differently).

The funny thing is that as far as I can see, you and I experience the world in a rather similar fashion, exept for the fact that where you experience the prescence of a personal supernatural God, I experience the prescence of an impersonal natural Nature. I feel joy for both theists and atheists when they are healed from their diseases, and I feel sorrow for both theists and atheists when they succomb from diseases.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Junior
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I didn't quite get this one. I thought you meant that there could be no morality if there was no God?
I was explaining, that God science and morality all intertwine but they can also be enjoyed separately, to a degree.
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Junior:
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I was explaining, that God science and morality all intertwine but they can also be enjoyed separately, to a degree.
At which point do you think they can no longer be separated?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Junior
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Brother-in-law of Soul
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You can't enjoy God without morality, but you can enjoy morality without God. You can enjoy science without God, but you can't enjoy God without science. That deal.
Call it what you want
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