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| Tweet Topic Started: 20 Oct 2009, 09:52 PM (5,191 Views) | |
| conradw | 29 Nov 2009, 04:46 PM Post #121 |
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Goliath
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see it sounds like you're making the argument that 'love is an emotion. emotions are not rational. only rational things should be taken account of. therefore love is irrelevant' if i've got you wrong, please correct me |
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| Concolor | 29 Nov 2009, 05:50 PM Post #122 |
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Barabbas
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I think I haven't explained it well enough. Remember that these are two separate topics (at least to me): 1. I think of love as an emotion, nothing more and nothing less. To me love is in the same category as happiness, anger, hate, guilt and that feeling you get when smelling the air when it's really cold and the sun is really bright just like that one time when you were a kid that you suddenly remember. I am in no way saying that all emotions are of equal strength or equal importance to all people. All I'm saying is that they all fall into the category of emotions. A brief example of things falling into various categories: When a cat pees on your shoe you feel an emotion, when you need to drive in a screw you use a screwdriver, when you park your car in the wrong place you get a parking ticket and when you need to solve a problem you use your rational problem solving skill. 2. Emotions are not rational, just like circles are not square. You can investigate emotions rationally "Why am I angry at Alicia, even though she just tried to be nice?", and you can place circles next to each other in a square pattern. Likewise you can feel an emotion about your rationality "Woho! I'm so glad I managed to solve that problem using my head.", and you can put squares in a circular pattern. I'm not saying that only rational things should be taken account for. I firmly believe that as many different things should be accounted for as possible. What I'm saying is that emotions are not a tool we can actively use in a purely rational process. Here is a caricature to show what I mean in an extreme example: man1: "Excuse me sir, but the train we are on seems to be heading towards a burning plane-wreckage covering the tracks. Would you be so kind as to pull the emergency brake and save our lives?" man2:"Indeed that sounds like a splendid idea, but I'm afraid I don't care much for the colour red. Since the emergency break handle is in fact red, I rather feel like not touching it." |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 02:05 AM Post #123 |
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so if you reckon Love is just an irrational emotion how will you fall into it? |
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| conradw | 30 Nov 2009, 06:07 AM Post #124 |
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Goliath
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what then is the role of emotions? |
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 06:33 AM Post #125 |
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But you are saying that only rational things are taken into account when it comes to God and you dont take any thing else into account. |
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| Concolor | 30 Nov 2009, 08:12 AM Post #126 |
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:I have never said that love is by default irrational. I'm saying that love is an emotion and emotions are not part of our ration tools. The reasons for having an emotion may be rational. The acts an emotion makes you do may coincide with what is rational. It may for most of the time be quite rational to follow your emotions. Example: I like the color blue. This emotion is arational. There are no rational reasons for me to like the color blue above other colors. Yet since this is my favorite color, it is more rational for me to have lot's of blue things rather than green things, as this will make me feel better. I'm saying that I want to choose my world view on the basis of rationality. I'm quite aware that this is not necessarily that common. This is actually why I have less problems agreeing with Deists than with Theists. I am neither Deist nor Theist because I want as large a part of my world view to be built on facts and evidence as possible. Since it is (as far as I know) by default impossible to get empirical knowledge about the hypothetical supernatural world (as it would then, by definition, be part of the natural world) I see no reason for my world view to encompass anything other than the natural world. Now, a Deist (in my experience) has different emotions than what I have when it comes to the supernatural. While I am enchanted by the natural world and all it's wonders, the deist feels that there should be something else than the natural world. He feels that some of the phenomena I experience in the natural world should rather be counted as part of the supernatural world. His preference for the supernatural world is comparable to the preference of the color blue over the color green. As long as the Deist makes sure that NONE of his beliefs are IN CONFLICT with the rational world (he makes sure there is no fluff in front of his eyes). Then, for him, believing in something supernatural may be the MOST RATIONAL approach, as he then gets to satisfy his emotions as long as they don't lead to him making wrong choices in the real world based on these beliefs. But whenever his supernatural views are in conflict with the evidence from the natural world, he must change his supernatural views accordingly (I realize this does not hold for all Deists, but it holds for those versions of Deism I can tolerate). The problems with Theism is that, according to the definitions I am used to, it supposes the existence of a personal, knowable supernatural entity. This has historically been shown to make many theists certain that their God is in a certain way regardless of what evidence they receive from the natural world. This may lead to ill-informed choices which have consequences for the real world. In short, if you hold something to be more reliable that natural evidence I will label this as irrational. @conradw: I may be reading far to much into your question, but the way you wrote it gave me an image of a world in which everything has a prescribed meaning and that each little thing is given a specific role to play out. This is quite different from the images I'm used to from physics and chemistry where "everything tries to do anything to everything else" (chemical reactions, brownian motion etc.) and then the most stable result will emerge from this. I'm used to seeing order, usefulness and purpose as emergent properties of a system rather than initial conditions. Anyway, I feel that I have described my opinion on the relationship between emotions and rationality in my above response to ARAZEC. But do ask me more probing questions if you want anything clarified. Edited by Concolor, 30 Nov 2009, 08:17 AM.
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 08:23 AM Post #127 |
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so what your saying is you wont fall into love you wont let yourself go like as in fall not saying thats wrong....just asking |
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| Concolor | 30 Nov 2009, 08:34 AM Post #128 |
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Barabbas
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No I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that falling in love is not by necessity rational in every single case. It is actually possible to fall in love with someone it is not good for you to be in love with. But if you are in love with someone, it can be the most rational approach to pursue your love as this may be what makes you happy. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 08:46 AM Post #129 |
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so you fall rationally so you pursue irrational love if it makes you happy thereby making it a rational choice on two irrational emotions..... sounds really together |
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| Concolor | 30 Nov 2009, 08:51 AM Post #130 |
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Barabbas
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No, as I have said perhaps three or four times now: LOVE IS NOT NECESSARILY IRRATIONAL! It is an emotion and therefor arational. If it is bad for you to follow that emotion, then your choice of following it is irrational. If it is good for you to follow that emotion, then your choice of following it is rational. Being rational means to use the information we have to make the most well-informed decisions we possibly can. Being aware of which emotions we and other people have is an important part of the information that forms the basis for rational decisions. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 08:58 AM Post #131 |
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arational is a fluff word oh sorry you like wiki i thought you like to grasp the world as it really is-there is no such thing as arational love |
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| Concolor | 30 Nov 2009, 09:02 AM Post #132 |
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Barabbas
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That post made no sense ARAZEC. If you are saying that everything in the world is either rational or irrational, then I would thoroughly disagree with you. In my opinion most things in this world have nothing to do with rationality in themselves. Is a brick rational? Or is it irrational? You can build a house with it, that would be rational. You can beat your own skull in with it, that would be irrational. But the brick itself is just a brick. It is neither rational nor irrational. It is arational. Edited by Concolor, 30 Nov 2009, 09:02 AM.
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 30 Nov 2009, 09:07 AM Post #133 |
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there you go again.........it made perfect sense we are talking about Love being aware of your emotions makes for rational thinking in Love?
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| conradw | 30 Nov 2009, 09:17 AM Post #134 |
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Goliath
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just to be sure. when you talk of bad and good, you mean that in relation to other and possibly broader goals, rather than in a sort of ontological or moral way, right? I asked what the role of emotion was because of the way you said that the goal of rationality was to discovery facts and explore reality. |
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| Concolor | 30 Nov 2009, 09:25 AM Post #135 |
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Barabbas
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Yes, but I also see morality as such a broad goal. Do you have the number of the post where I said that, so that I know what I'm replying to? Rationality is our tool for making informed choices, whether those choices lead us to a greater understanding of reality or better outcomes are in my mind two sides of the same issue. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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