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Gay Religion; GAY
Topic Started: 30 Nov 2009, 09:21 AM (8,281 Views)
conradw
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No its saying if you're bound to the law, you have to obey it all. and if you don't, you're cursed. I'm guessing when you enjoyed that lovely cheeseburger you ate (i don't know if you did, but if you haven't eaten a cheeseburger, I'm sure I can find an example of a time when you did break the law) you didn't realise that you were breaking the law of Moses, and were thus cursed.
Paul here is saying: Don't get all bent out of shape because of the Law, so long as you LOVE.

If you have a male neighbour, and he's your type, and you're his type - lust away!

Yeh. It does mean you can abandon the law. As long as you're moving in the spirit of the love, you don't need the law. THAT IS WHAT PAUL IS GETTING AT!

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." I don't see how he could put it any more clearly.

As for new testament passages about homosexuality. I think Paul probably didn't realise or take the time to realise how wrong he was. He was brought up in a culture which said homosexuality was an abomination. The fact that YOU have been brought up in a culture that says homosexuality is a normal expression of love and yet find it difficult to overcome that prejudice means that for Paul it must have been Nigh on Impossible!
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Luemas
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So in other words, you believe the Bible isn't true.

That's ok, because you know what, I do believe it is true.
I realize that no matter what viewpoint I present to you, you won't change your mind. I'm not surprised. As I said earlier to Vampira, usually debates don't end well.

But let me just remind you of this.
If you don't believe the Bible is true, why do you even bother calling yourself a Christian?
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conradw
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One thing I'll never be accused of is Bibliolatry - that's for certain.

Why do I call myself a Christian? Well what would you call me?
Edited by conradw, 30 Apr 2010, 05:17 PM.
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Midst Of Vampy
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Barabbas
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I don't know. Agnostic? Somewhere in between?
TIMEY-WHIMEY SKITTLES!
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Luemas
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Well, Paul says (Gasp) if you hold to the word, then you are saved. If not, you're believing in vain.
As I see it, something is either true or false.
The false may have some truth in it, but if it's false, then you obviously don't go parading around looking for vampires because you read Twilight and liked it.
Or whatever.
But, if the Bible is just the smidget false, then why believe it. It becomes a book of morals, not of God, true? Because God is true, and the word of God can't be even the slightest bit false.
Basically, what I'm saying is, if you believe one part of the Bible wrong, you believe the whole Bible wrong, and have no real purpose in believing in Christ, because it's all wrong anyways.
It's just irrational.
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conradw
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What is irrational is to suppose that that if one part of the book is false then the whole book is false. My library has a very early print of a Gray's Anatomy. Its a beautiful book, amazingly well illustrated and astoundingly descriptive. I could read that book and find a lot of very useful knowledge in it. However, there is some information in it which is wrong and has been corrected and update and revised in later editions of the book. Does the book's slight misrepresentation of the nervous system invalidate the illustration of the bones of the hand?

As I've said before, why does the truth of "Do unto others..." rely on the belief in a talking snake as recorded in Genesis? Is the commandment of love thy neighbour any less true if Noah's ark didn't have all the animals in the world on it? Does Jesus saying "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" become any less true if homosexuality is not a sin?

I'm guessing you didn't look up the meaning of the word Bibliolatry because if you had, you'd have seen it was a pretty thinly veiled pejorative speaking to exactly what you've described (if you did, or didn't need to, I apologise for making the assumption).
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Concolor
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I have to half way back up Luemas here. I think you're right to say that if you think one part of the Bible is wrong, then you cannot hold the Bible as a source of truth. After all, how would you know which parts are true or not.

I cannot comprehend more than two ways to see the Bible:
1. As the word of the God described in the Bible. In which case every rule must be followed, every point taken literary.
2. An ordinary book. In this case we would expect some things in there to be true, others to be false. As a source of morals or guidance it would be completely arbitrary to choose the Bible, the Quran, or Twilight (lot's of moral guidelines in there, I bet).

You can of course still believe in Christ and lots of stuff you think he did, but he will be YOUR Christ, not the Christ of the Bible.
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conradw
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Just like that old textbook, why can't the Bible hold truth as well as inaccuracy? Even if it God-inspired and about God, it's still second hand. Its not mystical or magical.

As for not knowing which parts are true or not, what about just doing the same thing we do with any other historical document? Again, I don't think Jesus had to catch a heap of fish to prove that the merciful are more likely to be shown mercy than the merciless (although it admittedly doesn't always work out that way).
As an article of Faith, I believe that he did come back from the dead, but I don't think he needed to in order to show us to turn the other cheek.

You also don't have to take all your morals from one place. I got some from my parents, some from my teachers, some from my friends and some from people I speak to on the internet. So where there is wisdom in the Quran, take wisdom from the Quran. Where there is wisdom in the Film American History X, take wisdom from American History X.

Sure, if one part of the Bible is wrong - take for example filicide, or slavery - it cannot be the total and literal authority on all things past present and future. But that doesn't mean you throw out the entire book.
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Midst Of Vampy
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Luemas
30 Apr 2010, 10:11 PM
Well, Paul says (Gasp) if you hold to the word, then you are saved. If not, you're believing in vain.
As I see it, something is either true or false.
The false may have some truth in it, but if it's false, then you obviously don't go parading around looking for vampires because you read Twilight and liked it.
Or whatever.
But, if the Bible is just the smidget false, then why believe it. It becomes a book of morals, not of God, true? Because God is true, and the word of God can't be even the slightest bit false.
Basically, what I'm saying is, if you believe one part of the Bible wrong, you believe the whole Bible wrong, and have no real purpose in believing in Christ, because it's all wrong anyways.
It's just irrational.
I wasn't talking about me. I was talking to Conradw. I was telling him he is somewhere in between.(Let me get my point across.If you look at the new testament and the old testament, It just doesn't add up. I mean, There are some of the same stories with different endings. I mean, If someone went back and changed history, then...)
TIMEY-WHIMEY SKITTLES!
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Deleted User
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Well thats interesting.....

Quote:
 
Sure, if one part of the Bible is wrong - take for example filicide, or slavery - it cannot be the total and literal authority on all things past present and future. But that doesn't mean you throw out the entire book.


well the Bible actually addresses that point - do you know which scriptures?
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Luemas
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What points of the Bible don't add up Vampira? I'm just curious.
@Conrad I see the Bible as Truth. You don't.
That's cool.
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conradw
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No Luemas, that's not cool.

You see, to believe what you see to be the case, you have to justify some truly absurd parts of the Bible. Was what Jephthath did killing his daughter a good thing? What, is right for Noah to curse not the son who he (wrongly) believed wronged him but his grandson? Was it right for God to call for not only the genocide but the obliteration of entire nations?
Was it okay at that time or any time for God to allow people to executed for being raped? Is it okay to allow people to take and own slaves?

If you can answer yes to any part of this, I'll ask you to imagine something for a moment - what if all these examples didn't come from the Bible, but instead came from the Quran, would you find it as easy to say yes to any of that?


Finally, if you can say yes to any of that I suggest you put yourself in the position of the people who were harmed. Imagine yourself a Canaanite being put to the sword. Imagine yourself Canaan himself, cursed for anothers transgressions. Imagine yourself a young girl being stoned to death because you had the audacity to be raped. Imagine yourself a slave. Imagine yourself not as Jephthath's daughter, but as his wife seeing your daughter being executed because of her love for her father and her father's deal with God.

Can you think of anything better? Because if this isn't the most beautiful, perfect and wonderful thing in the world to you, then you're not honouring God's Word in the way you're saying that I should.
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Deleted User
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The bible contains examples of Good and Bad things -does that make it absurd ? i think it makes it realistic to show ppls mistakes.
There are no mistakes by God -its convienient to blame God and confuse the work of Satan.

See we have already spoken of Gods Divine Wrath -he cant love sin as he is Love itself - and letting sin go without Justice in Divine consequence would be unfair - you reap what you sow -however being the mercifull God that he is he sent a solution JESUS who freely offers the gift of salvation to all men.




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Midst Of Vampy
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Barabbas
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conradw
2 May 2010, 05:38 PM
No Luemas, that's not cool.

You see, to believe what you see to be the case, you have to justify some truly absurd parts of the Bible. Was what Jephthath did killing his daughter a good thing? What, is right for Noah to curse not the son who he (wrongly) believed wronged him but his grandson? Was it right for God to call for not only the genocide but the obliteration of entire nations?
Was it okay at that time or any time for God to allow people to executed for being raped? Is it okay to allow people to take and own slaves?

If you can answer yes to any part of this, I'll ask you to imagine something for a moment - what if all these examples didn't come from the Bible, but instead came from the Quran, would you find it as easy to say yes to any of that?


Finally, if you can say yes to any of that I suggest you put yourself in the position of the people who were harmed. Imagine yourself a Canaanite being put to the sword. Imagine yourself Canaan himself, cursed for anothers transgressions. Imagine yourself a young girl being stoned to death because you had the audacity to be raped. Imagine yourself a slave. Imagine yourself not as Jephthath's daughter, but as his wife seeing your daughter being executed because of her love for her father and her father's deal with God.

Can you think of anything better? Because if this isn't the most beautiful, perfect and wonderful thing in the world to you, then you're not honouring God's Word in the way you're saying that I should.
Hey,dude. Don't hate, he has his beliefs and you have yours. Let it go, you can't change the way people think.
TIMEY-WHIMEY SKITTLES!
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conradw
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Maybe you can't change the way people think (I'm yet to be convinced of that) but you can make people think.

If he believes that these awful things in the Bible are any less the absolutely good and righteous, just and loving (so to speak "Of God") then I have a duty to challenge him.

And Arazec, What sin did Canaan commit? What sin did Jephthath commit? Just take for a moment the example of God's Law concerning rape - could you ever bring yourself to carry out such a heinous crime as to stone your own daughter for being attacked?

What makes it absurd to suppose that this is the word of a perfect God, not imperfect men.

Like I said, if you want to suggest to me that I should believe this book absolutely then you have to convince me that there is no way that God could have handled this any better.

God spoke to Noah before, couldn't he have told him to stop overreacting? God couldn't have moved the people of Canaan out of the way or shown them the light as he did to the Israelites? God couldn't have told people to love their raped daughters and show them the compassion and love they desperately need at that time? God couldn't have saved Jephthath's daughter in the same way that he saved Isaac?

None of these things would have been beyond him - he's proven he can do them enough at other times.
Edited by conradw, 3 May 2010, 05:12 AM.
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