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| Gay Religion; GAY | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 30 Nov 2009, 09:21 AM (8,280 Views) | |
| Concolor | 3 May 2010, 11:42 AM Post #181 |
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Barabbas
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@conradw: I'm being the devil's (or actually God's) advocate here, but who are you to question the moral laws of God? Who are you, with your limited, sinful mind to put your own values before those of God? God is the maker of the universe, he is the source of morality itself, who are you to rebel against his laws? If you believe him to be true, why do you not follow his commands? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Afalstein | 3 May 2010, 02:24 PM Post #182 |
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Mountain Gnome
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Canaan had a lot more against it than simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is plenty of evidences that they engaged in idol-worship, promiscuity, murder, etc. Canaan was full of sinners. Not the worst sinners, maybe--we don't really know how they compared to the surrounding nations--but no one ever said it was a contest. The point is, in God's eyes, they deserved to die (granted, most of the world does in God's eyes), so he was perfectly justified in telling the Israelites to kill them. Jephthah's sin was to swear a rash oath without thinking it out. Jephthah's daughter is perhaps a more innocent victim, but a lot of people have interpreted Jephthah's sacrifice of her to actually be devoting her to the service of the temple (meaning she could never be married or establish Jephthah's line), rather than an actual burnt sacrifice. The case is wholly different from Isaac, where Abraham was ordered by God. Here, Jephthah practically ordered himself to do it and was trapped by his own words. And actually, that holds true for a LOT of your concerns. God could maybe have kept Noah from overreacting. He could probably have converted all the Canaanites. He could have forced the entire world to be perfect. But what good would that be? God made the world for his own glory, and where's the glory in a world that worships you only because you force them to? What worth is a planet full of brainwashed humans that have no choice but to worship God? God gave them a choice, they chose to turn away from him. Could God force them to turn around? Sure. But what good are servants who love you only because they have to? God made the world perfect. Humans screwed it up all by themselves. God sent prophets, and most of them were scorned, persecuted, or killed. He sent his son, and they killed him. And then people complain about why God doesn't make the world perfect for them. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| Concolor | 3 May 2010, 03:14 PM Post #183 |
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Barabbas
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Whatever happened to Grace and forgiveness? Also the sense of choice and free will as being a good thing is something God created you to feel. If he had created you to feeling mindless worship was the best thing, then you would feel otherwise. And as far as I could tell God could easily have done that. If God made the world so that we could potentially mess it up, he did not make it perfect. If I make a bike with wheels that cannot go flat, it is better than an identical bike with wheels that can, hence it's closer to perfection. And if God is somehow limited by a law or force that is greater than him, that compels him to make us with free will, and forces him to create a world in which we will (as any omniscient being would know) falter and hurt ourselves (either by other people or natural disasters), then why did he create us? Why did he not say to himself: "I can create man to worship me, but he will fall and he will hurt and he will burn and there will be nothing I can do to stop it. Perhaps it is more merciful of me to not create him." |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| dragonshardz | 3 May 2010, 09:46 PM Post #184 |
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Troll
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Gonna just jump in here, real quick. I don't know the thread of the conversation, and I honestly don't want to read through 13 pages of arguing/debating. I'll just say my piece. I don't believe that it is right to persecute or judge LGBT people simply because they are different. It's much like Hitler condemning the Jews, or, more recently, the government here in Arizona criminalizing undocumented immigrants (giving cops free reign to racially profile ANYONE with brown skin, but that's another subject.) I have a number of LGBT friends, and the reason they are my friends is that I see past the external and look at the person. I recently figured out that one of my female friends is a transsexual. That doesn't change my friendship for her in any way. I do not believe that it is my God-given duty to tell her that she is a bad person because she wanted to be female. Is it really all that important that I try to impose my beliefs on her? (This above is a rant more against the hardcore bigoted Christians that are on the news so much. This isn't directed specifically at anyone in this community.) |
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I lurk a lot on this forum, and am very busy in real life, so don't be surprised if I take a couple days, or even weeks, to reply to your post or PM. GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any other forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. | |
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| conradw | 4 May 2010, 06:40 AM Post #185 |
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Goliath
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You have to understand the way that Afelstein looks at it. Its a step beyond 'I don't deserve eternal life' and into 'Nobody deserves to live.' In any other context we would have one word for this. Evil. It is as if to say the Conquistadors were actually giving the natives what they deserved. It is to say that Hutus were giving the Tutsi's what God reckons they deserve. It is to say that the Armenians didn't get anything they didn't deserve from the Turks. Because as far as God is concerned, they deserve even less. Alfastein accepts that Jephthath's daughter is an innocent victim of Jephthath's and God's bargain (and to his credit, he doesn't want to believe that a burnt offering means a burnt offering - a tell-tale clue that there is some compassion in him). Ironically, Alfastein, you argue against the idea of becoming "brainwashed" and only worshipping God because he forces you to, but that is exactly what you're advocating we do, giving up our moral reasoning, critical enquiry, and personal goals and aspirations. @Dragonshardz: great post Edited by conradw, 4 May 2010, 06:41 AM.
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| Afalstein | 4 May 2010, 08:26 AM Post #186 |
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Mountain Gnome
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I think you spelled my name three different ways. Did I say I wanted us to give up our reason, inquiry, goals, and aspirations? I aspire to be writer. That's in no way contradictory to my aspiration to be a good servant of God. My worship of God does not in any way conflict with my exercise of reason. If I thought moral inquiry was useless, I wouldn't even be on this site. Christianity is very reasonable, and very much full of aspirations. I don't see how I'm arguing to get rid of those things. You're correct in appraising my position as "no one deserves to live." While you have offered plenty of sentimental problems with this, you fail to qualify it with any kind of reason. Why, exactly, do you consider my statement false? Granted, the examples you provide ARE those of evil men (you left out Hitler, btw), but you did not give me any criteria for thinking so. And you say I'M the unreasonable one. Let me clarify. Yes, we all deserve to die. At God's hands. The fact that we haven't is a sign of God's eternal grace and love for us. This love is part of the reason why MAN has no justification for killing man. He is just as sinful as his neighbor, therefore he has no right to judge his neighbor unworthy of life, particularly as he has been shown God's love himself, and ought to express that love toward his neighbor. Also, all men are created in God's image. We are to respect that image by treating other men with respect and dignity. We are all equals in God's eyes, therefore we are to treat each other as equals. Conquistadors? Hutus? Turks? Nazis? Men. Judging other men to be their inferiors and unfit to live (in the Nazi's case, for what they considered reasoned science). Not something God allows man to do. Israelites? Men. Carrying out God's orders. Big difference there. Now, before someone asks (because I know they will), if someone today said God told them to kill another person, I would be highly skeptical. God doesn't tend to work that way anymore, as his word is sufficient for us, and since his Son came he works more through love than law. But if there was a way to verify that? Then yes, I think they would be justified. Oh, and I AM glad you think I have a spark of human kindness. I was beginning to worry I was a block of obsidian. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| conradw | 4 May 2010, 05:07 PM Post #187 |
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Goliath
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I think you'd be fighting an uphill battle to suggest that the conquistadors weren't doing what they did in the service of the almighty. God doesn't work that way anymore? But I thought he was perfect and unchanging and eternal and stuff. But its good to know that the Conquistadors were justified... As for noticing your kindness - am I not merciful? Reasons why we don't deserve to die. First we ask, Why do we punish people at all? Deterrence, rehabilitation, education are all good reasons. Revenge is not a good reason to punish someone. Restoring balance likewise is not a good reason - simply because you never will restore balance, and you'll never know when balance has been achieved. In all cases, punishment is proportional to the crime, otherwise it's malicious and sadistic. If I cycle without a helmet, you don't burn me at the stake. So the fact that you can comfortably say I deserve to die means you know that I have done something proportional to being killed. There isn't an infinite sin to warrant an infinite punishment. Aquinas suggested that any sin is a sin against God's infinite holiness, and therefore deserves an infinite punishment. But in reality that doesn't hold up - you don't get a worse punishment for mugging a better person, but you do get a worse punishment for a worse offence. Can you tell me what sin I've committed to deserve death? I find it interesting how God's love is what makes it wrong for men to kill other men, but makes it all right for God to kill men. You don't kill who you love - that's the opposite of love! If you love them you throw everything in your arsenal to not make them die. And if your arsenal is as big as God's, no one should ever die. For men to indiscriminately decide that people deserve death is evil. Why is God being held to a lower standard? he can wipe people out at a whim and that's all right? That's not what God does. God leads by example - "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." If God asked me to kill someone I'd tell him to do it himself. I'd also stop worshipping God that same day, because such a god is not worthy of my praise. If God asked me to lay down my life for someone, I'd do it with happiness (I say that, but I reckon I'm a coward and I'd wuss out). |
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| Afalstein | 4 May 2010, 05:44 PM Post #188 |
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Mountain Gnome
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The conquistadors might've THOUGHT they were doing it in the service of the almighty. Unless you can show me transcripts of conquistadors meeting God, though, I fail to see how that applies. Again, men, judging other races unfit to live (although, actually, a number of Catholics protested the mistreatment, and Charles V issued several bans against it). Not men being directly spoken to by God. Men who were judging BY GOD'S STANDARD'S, yes, but not men following God's judgments. So, no, the conquistadors were not justified.
Since I don't know you personally, I take it this is a more abstract question. In which case, it should be, not death, but eternal punishment. In general? All humanity has turned away from God. That in itself is enough to warrant God's separation from them in the first place--after all, it's what they wanted--and since God holds the universe together, if God separated himself from them, they'd all die. Outside of that? Those that suffer eternal punishment are the ones who rejected God's grace. That's the sin. They refused the grace and forgiveness that Christ died for, essentially saying, "Naw, I'd rather go to hell." They reject his love and forgiveness, and so they don't get it. Plain and simple really. By the way--"In reality" this doesn't hold up? Is a person punished/prosecuted more or less for murdering the president as opposed to murdering a homeless person? Or say, trying to kill? Is a person punished/prosecuted more or less for robbing a bank instead of a convenience store? But of course, these are worldly distinctions, based on importance rather than "holiness." Perhaps a better way to put it would be: Who is punished more, a person who robs a charity or one who robs a bank? Who is punished more, a person who kills a baby or one who kills a corrupt businessman? Part of the problem is, you're applying manmade systems of justice and assuming that they hold true for everywhere, all times, all places. The justice system we have today is by no means infallible or perfect. Just because it DOES do a certain thing doesn't mean it should. Interesting related question: Without God, is there a reason NOT to commit genocide? What, from a worldly point of view, was evil about what Hitler did? Don't just tell me humans shouldn't kill other humans, that's not an answer. Tell me WHY humans shouldn't kill other humans.
Yes. But again, God's love means little if you don't understand his wrath. God's forgiveness isn't really impressive at all until you realize that we deserve death. If you assume that we DON'T all deserve death... well, then what is God forgiving us for? It's fine for God to kill men. He doesn't, by and large, because he loves them. Exceptions are made, he does (as in the case of Canaan) decree deaths, but that's completely within his rights. Essentially, because they reject his love, he doesn't give it to them. Also, God made man, so he has creator's rights.
Don't know you, but it's more likely that you'd wuss out on the "talking-back-to-God" part. Most people who meet God are too overawed to really do anything except fall over. By the way, I may have missed this bit, but you don't worship God, do you? So what do you mean you'd stop believing in him? Or are you just saying that as an example? Edited by Afalstein, 4 May 2010, 05:47 PM.
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| Midst Of Vampy | 4 May 2010, 06:38 PM Post #189 |
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Barabbas
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what have you yet to be convinced of? People think what they think, and you know it. Maybe I speak for myself, but no one can make me be a christian. I don't mean to sound offensive... |
| TIMEY-WHIMEY SKITTLES! | |
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| Afalstein | 4 May 2010, 07:06 PM Post #190 |
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Mountain Gnome
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Arguments are useful, even if you can't always win over the person you're talking to. In an argument, it's incredibly rare for either person to admit he's wrong, just because people hate to admit defeat. And change, too, is obviously something more done by the person himself than by the person arguing for it. However. argument is useful because it allows you to see other points of view and think out your reactions to them. It gives you a new perspective on your own mindset, and can lead to questioning and further discoveries. Occasionally, this questioning can lead to genuine change, even if the person may not admit it in the argument. There is also the audience to consider. Even if the individual personally involved in the argument may not want to admit change, those on the sidelines are much freer to learn from what's being said. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| conradw | 5 May 2010, 02:06 AM Post #191 |
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Goliath
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What's wrong with murder? well to put it one way, you wouldn't want it done to you. That stands true and it doesn't matter who your parents are to make it so. Nice try, re-framing the question and all. Now if I may, If God thinks we all deserve death and punishment (and he's the absolute moral judge and everything) then what reason do we have to SAVE lives? Presumably we're acting contrary to God - which can only be a bad thing right? Yeah, Btw, sorry for spelling your name wrong - I do that to everyone, just ask Arazec. so the Conquistadors were judging by God's standard. Goodness me. So the death of all those natives was a good and right thing - the only thing wrong with it is that they did it. It sounds more like WITH God, human life is worthless - a slightly more misanthropic view than I care to take. By the way, Just to explain, I am a Christian, I do worship and believe in God. I don't believe in Calvin or Augustine however. Nor do I share the view of Humans as utter corrupt. As for creators rights, I've spoken before about how Christopher Hitchens put it: It is to believe the masochistic notion that you love to be slave. It is the sadistic notion that you (and you believe God also) want me to be a slave - a notion which only in the foggiest of delusions can be called Love. As I've said before, you are a child of God, not a plaything. Not to put too fine a point on it, your view of God as a sadistic sociopath is the closest thing I can think of to blasphemy. But to put it Biblically, (and why shouldn't I?) I don't call you servants, I call you friends (or something like that). I call upon you to stop thinking so little of the worth of people - Doesn't the book say to do what is right and love your brother, otherwise you are not a child of God but a Child of the Devil? |
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| Deleted User | 5 May 2010, 07:49 AM Post #192 |
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well i dont really know what your point is Condraw ?it seems one minute you beleive in Love and God and the next your saying he shouldnt have made a mankind because he knew of the fall but what about JESUS ? he made the solution to the wickedness of the fall ..... if you jargue any other way its circular and will always go back to free will and God creating these Robot Humans..... You speak of the notion of God SLAVES -Jesus came to set the captives free - slavery to sin is replaced by Gods yoke which he says is light. You can not serve 2 masters and created to serve we were-thats why you get a buzz from accomplishing things you enjoy and have God given gifts for-Stay close in relationship with God and ask him to reveal more and more of your purpose. see this life we live has meaning-its not an experiment of Gods that is judged by man as worthy or imperfect/perfect. there is a lot of God die/death/killing talk and who deserves whatever which isnt the eternal view of exsistence i share ,so when you seem indignant at God "killing" off this or that race/person whatever i dont see that as the be all and end all -if they choose to reject God then an eternity away from him would be a permanant favour dont you think? |
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| Afalstein | 5 May 2010, 07:59 AM Post #193 |
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Mountain Gnome
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Oh snap. I'm incredibly sorry about that. I got you confused with the one of the other major people I argue with, who's an agnostic. I have met Christians who use the arguments you do, but I thought you'd said earlier you were an agnostic. Sorry to mistake you like that. The question I asked was designed to point out that, without God, there's no basis for any kind of morality. But since you believe in God, the point is irrelevant.
We save lives because Christ saved ours. God keeps us from death every second by his presence (in spite of the fact that we DO deserve it--it's not a question of him thinking it). We're thus not acting contrary to his will, we're acing in accordance with it.
You're misunderstanding the point. I did not say that the death of the natives was good or right--I agreed with you that they were evil. Did you miss that memo? The conquistadors were evil because they played God in deciding who was fit to live and who was not. They tried to judge by God's standards, but they failed because they're human and they misunderstood God's standards. Among other things, they misunderstood that they too deserved to die and thus were in the same position as the "savages" under their heel. Though even that, I suppose, is a stretch--not many of the conquistadors WERE devout men, they were more opportunistic entrepreneurs. Many of the more devoted Christians--monks and the Emporer Charles V--decried the treatment and forbid it. Conquistadors didn't listen, but the point stands. That was the point I was trying to convey.
Okaaaaayyy... but you haven't actually explained WHY God creating us DOESN'T give him rights to our lives. Do we have tantamount importance to God? Is there some higher law that compels God to treat us as equals or to leave us free? We keep animals in servitude. We keep creations in servitude. The only case in which slavery is frowned upon is among equals. Humans cannot enslave other humans. Are humans equal to God? Slavery, despite common belief, is NOT an inherent evil, nor is Freedom an inherent good. Benevolent dictatorships have existed and probably will exist in the future. King Alfred was an absolute ruler with tons of serfs, but he also did more to the modernization of England than the serfs would have done on their own. Nowadays we have politicians who believe that the people need to be taken care of...that they don't know what's best for them anyway. (granted, I disagree with them). Should you overthrow a beneficial regime just because it's a regime? More to the point... You think there's a way to avoid being a slave? Supposing I don't believe in obeying God absolutely. Suppose I also lead a life in a free democratic country. I'm still a slave to the expectations of society and the circumstances in which I grow up. I'm a slave to my duties and obligations. Suppose, then, that I break free of those and go to live in a hermitage. I am then a slave to myself--either to the inhibitions that I keep myself in check with, or to the lusts that I cannot help but indulge. After all, drug addicts are slaves, as are chronic alcoholics. And that kind of slavery is worse than any other, in my opinion. Slavery is unavoidable. You're either enslaved to God, the world, or yourself, and out of the three, God's slavery is the most liberating, because it's the one you were made for anyway.
Sure. Do what is right and love your brother. Excellent advice for humans. We're not God's brothers. At best, we're his children, and that by adoption. He DOES love us, and he can't help but do right because it's in his nature, but he's under no obligation or command to do so (at least, none but his own self). You ask me to stop thinking so little of the worth of people? Fine. Explain then to me World War I, World War II, The Holocaust, the Armenians, the gulags, the USSR, Vietnam. Explain to me riots and racism and all the evils in the world. Explain criminals, rapists, baby killers, Pharisees. Explain to me WHY the world is in a mess. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the world's a messed up place. It doesn't take a genius to figure out whose fault that is. I'm not the first nor the last person to come to the conclusion that mankind isn't nearly as great as he likes to think he is. He's clumsy, confused, stupid, and sinful. That's why we need God. To save us from ourselves. I like to think I'm an impressive person, but all I have to do is take a closer look and I realize I'm not. I'm just as sinful as the next guy, in all reality, and that's part of why I love him (Or should. I don't, always, but that just shows why I'm sinful). I have absolutely NOTHING that puts me above him, if it wasn't for God I'd be in his exact same position. Unless you realize how sinful you are, it's really hard to love those who are more obviously so. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| Deleted User | 5 May 2010, 08:38 AM Post #194 |
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i think your pretty impressive
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| Concolor | 5 May 2010, 11:37 AM Post #195 |
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein: Yes, conradw and Concolor ARE quite similar names so the confusion is understandable. I'm the resident agnostic atheist ![]() Also: Not quite so irrelevant, you may have noticed that he answered your question without pointing to God or any other higher power. And even if there was an absolute/objective morality, I fail to see what that has to do with the God of the Bible. Could it not have be given by Krishna? Or Brahman? Or Wutan? Or Justitia (roman goddess of justice?), or that it could simply be an impersonal law of the universe? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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well i dont really know what your point is Condraw ?
but what about JESUS ? he made the solution to the wickedness of the fall ..... if you jargue any other way its circular and will always go back to free will and God creating these Robot Humans.....
i think your pretty impressive

6:43 PM Jul 10