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Gay Religion; GAY
Topic Started: 30 Nov 2009, 09:21 AM (8,289 Views)
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Whats in that box ? :blink: ???!!!!

scarey and horrible freest plug

:D
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conradw
Goliath
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Actually, I went one better and rather than telling you, I showed you!
Wrath (or anger) is one of the seven mortal sins and is also mentioned by Paul in Gal 5:20.
Jesus couldn't sin? Well it would appear that he could. or are you saying the bible isn't true?

This all of course is moot if, like me, you say that loving another man is not only not a sin, but instead love.
Whether or not they had sex is not really any of my business. I wouldn't think any less of him if they did - would you?


as for the tree, why didn't god, knowing our curious nature full well, not give them tree until it was time?
Sounds like a parent who flaunts a present in front of a kid, and when the kid investigates kicks the kid out onto the driveway.
Also, I know its wrong for me to judge your parents on this basis, but it sounds like they're pretty mean. I mean its Christmas after all!

Also, the 70,000 people that God killed to punish David for taking a census - were they guilty of some crime? Even David says what God is doing is unfair, and instead God should be punishing him.

Incidentally, do you know how most sexually transmitted diseases are spread? yup, heterosexual sex (but of course, you're suggesting that THAT sex is necessary). Also, masturbation doesn't result in any disease - why is that "illegal"?
It isn't for sanitary reasons at all, and you know it (otherwise you'd be advocating use of condoms and proper sexual education - or are you?)
Its about guilt, and to some degree intolerance.
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Junior
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Wrath (or anger) is one of the seven mortal sins and is also mentioned by Paul in Gal 5:20.
Jesus couldn't sin? Well it would appear that he could. or are you saying the bible isn't true?
Like I said, it was discipline. He was trying to teach them better. Maybe you're one of those kids who would lock up their parents for spanking, but I'm not. They were setting up a black market in the church! Since he was God, that would also be known as HIS HOUSE. If someone was selling guns and drugs in your house, you'd be mad too, right? You'd want to teach them better. You wouldn't do it in a hurtful way, because that would be against the law.

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This all of course is moot if, like me, you say that loving another man is not only not a sin, but instead love.
Whether or not they had sex is not really any of my business. I wouldn't think any less of him if they did - would you?
So that's your plan, aye? If you don't agree with me, you're a liar, and if you agree with me, I'll overlook the whole wrath thing. That's a dirty trick to play. It doesn't even make sense. I really don't give a flying cuss what they do in the bedroom, or why they do it, but plain and simple, it's the wrong thing to do. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

About love... once again, love has two meanings. Love sexually, like you would your partner, or love emotionally, like you would a friend or family member. You don't have to do both.

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as for the tree, why didn't god, knowing our curious nature full well, not give them tree until it was time?
Because he wanted to see if we could obey him! He could've made us like every other animal, brainless and without free will, but he didn't! He gave us the free will to obey him the way we want! It almost sounds like you're blaming God for your mistakes.
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Sounds like a parent who flaunts a present in front of a kid, and when the kid investigates kicks the kid out onto the driveway.
I never said that. My parents would scold me if I peaked at my presents early. Maybe you've never been punished, maybe your parents always gave you whatever yo wanted, but the rest of the world wasn't so lucky. My parents taught me right from wrong. When I did wrong, they'd teach me better. That's a parent's duty.
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Also, I know its wrong for me to judge your parents on this basis, but it sounds like they're pretty mean. I mean its Christmas after all!
My parents wanted to teach me a lesson! They finally gave me the present after the stern talking to, but...
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Also, the 70,000 people that God killed to punish David for taking a census - were they guilty of some crime? Even David says what God is doing is unfair, and instead God should be punishing him.
Verse please. I want to know the verse/story instead of your interpretation.

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Incidentally, do you know how most sexually transmitted diseases are spread? yup, heterosexual sex (but of course, you're suggesting that THAT sex is necessary)
One, hetrosexual sex is more common, so logically more people would spread the disease. If the number of gays and straights were the same, that would be different. The graph you referenced was an example of biased information, because it didn't take the numerical differences into account.

Two, yes, heterosexual sex IS necessary if you, um... WANT THE HUMAN RACE TO SURVIVE. That's why that's necessary.

Three, not all heterosexual sex is permitted. Fornication, heterosexual between two unmarried people, is a sin for the purpose of the whole disease thing.

You see, if we all constrained ourselves to one partner, like the bible says, the disease rates would plummet.
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. Also, masturbation doesn't result in any disease - why is that "illegal"?
It's not. One pope hundreds of years ago may have said something, but otherwise the bible doesn't mention masturbation once.
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It isn't for sanitary reasons at all, and you know it (otherwise you'd be advocating use of condoms and proper sexual education - or are you?)
I don't understand this part, could you rephrase it? I mean, yeah, I completely advocate sex education, but I only recommend birth control when you're going to have unmarried sex, which I DON'T recommend at all.
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Its about guilt, and to some degree intolerance.
So, you tell me I have bad parents, you tell me I spread more diseases than you do, and then you call me intolerant? I would say you don't have much room to talk, but you'd probably complain about that too, right?
Call it what you want
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Concolor
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@conradw:
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Its about guilt, and to some degree intolerance.
I'd go a step deeper into that analysis, and say that it is also about control. After all: "He who controls the Spice controls the universe".

@Junior:
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He could've made us like every other animal, brainless and without free will, but he didn't!
On behalf of dogs, dolphins, chimps, gorillas, squids and basically every other animal anywhere, I am thoroughly offended :D
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hetrosexual sex is more common
Interesting, how would you know?
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Fornication, heterosexual between two unmarried people, is a sin for the purpose of the whole disease thing.

You see, if we all constrained ourselves to one partner, like the bible says, the disease rates would plummet.
What if you constrained yourself to one partner without being married?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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Like I said, it was discipline. He was trying to teach them better. Maybe you're one of those kids who would lock up their parents for spanking, but I'm not. They were setting up a black market in the church! Since he was God, that would also be known as HIS HOUSE. If someone was selling guns and drugs in your house, you'd be mad too, right? You'd want to teach them better. You wouldn't do it in a hurtful way, because that would be against the law.

-> not a black market. It was completely within the law
-> Well Jesus whipped them and kicked over their stuff and insulted them. Sounds pretty hurtful to me. But then, what do I know? my parents didn't teach me right from wrong.
-> so Jesus was angry. Then we're in agreement. Good to see we've sorted that one out.

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So that's your plan, aye? If you don't agree with me, you're a liar, and if you agree with me, I'll overlook the whole wrath thing. That's a dirty trick to play. It doesn't even make sense. I really don't give a flying cuss what they do in the bedroom, or why they do it, but plain and simple, it's the wrong thing to do. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

-> you're right about it not making sense. I couldn't make out a single bit of sense out of that whole 'dirty trick' bit
-> Of course, I would say that there's no sin there to hate

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About love... once again, love has two meanings. Love sexually, like you would your partner, or love emotionally, like you would a friend or family member. You don't have to do both.

-> Love has one meaning. You can express it differently, but love is love. And love is God.
-> I don't think you can love sexually without an emotional connection.

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Because he wanted to see if we could obey him! He could've made us like every other animal, brainless and without free will, but he didn't! He gave us the free will to obey him the way we want! It almost sounds like you're blaming God for your mistakes.

-> Ah, so it was a test? And God didn't know what Adam and Eve would do? He didn't know that without a notion of right and wrong Adam and Eve wouldn't be able to understand that it was wrong to disobey God? And rather than teaching them and helping learn from their mistake he cursed them and expelled them to fend for themselves? hmmm It sounds like Our Father could have done with eating the apple himself....
-> I didn't eat the fruit. It wasn't my 'mistake.' doesn't mean i won't be punished for it tho...
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I never said that. My parents would scold me if I peaked at my presents early. Maybe you've never been punished, maybe your parents always gave you whatever yo wanted, but the rest of the world wasn't so lucky. My parents taught me right from wrong. When I did wrong, they'd teach me better. That's a parent's duty.

-> I never peaked at my Christmas presents early. Or at least I never got caught. How would I anyway? Santa doesn't bring them till Christmas...
-> Wait, so you got your present anyway? but you just said NEVER got it. Why would you mislead me like that? Do you want me to think your parents are mean?

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Verse please.

-> 1 chronicles... twenty-something... lemme go check... 21. the bit about the 70,000 being killed is verse 14, God feels bad in verse 15 and the bit where David complains is verse 17.
-> I don't appreciate the accusatory tone. my interpretation indeed...

-> Oddly enough the number of lesbians who have had no male sexual partners with STIs are rare even if you take into account the difference in numbers. Makes you think doesn't it...
-> of course, unless god is using sexually transmitted diseases to punish the promiscuous, and the raped, and the children of those with the condition he couldy easily stop these diseases existing couldn't he?
-> Well, if you're all powerful you can certainly make it such that heterosexual sex is unnecessary. BUT WAIT, we don't even need to be THAT! Introducing in vitro fertilization, its new, its exciting, its been around for like 30 years now - how do you not know about this? :ermm:
-> Sin of Onan. Spilling his seed. Very bad.
-> Constrain yourself to safe sex and disease rates plummet plus you get sex. Win-win. :hug:
-> So you do advocate safe sex and not abstinence-only teaching? great, you have my full support here.

and on your final point: I don't know your parents, but they sound nicer now that we have the truth of the story. I didn't even imply you spread more diseases than i do. but as long as you stand in the way of love, I'll call you intolerant.
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Junior
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Concolor
 
What if you constrained yourself to one partner without being married?


I... it... good point. I guess it's more of a ceremonial bonding process. A way to dedicate your life to the one you love. Same thing with baptism. God pretty much knows you well enough, but you need to set that public example. You'd have to talk to someone else though, because I honestly don't know.

But, for that last thing that conradw posted, what's your opinion on it?
Edited by Junior, 10 Dec 2009, 05:54 PM.
Call it what you want
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conradw
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i think its pretty long
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Junior
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I was talking to concolor but that's good too.
Call it what you want
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Concolor
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@Junior: Great, now we've got a theist asking an atheist about his interpretation of a theist. Things are getting messy. Don't worry I have several things I want clarified in conradw's post. (But as they were adressed to you, you should probably answer them too)

@conradw:
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Love has one meaning. You can express it differently, but love is love. And love is God.
I'm of a different opinion. I think love is an emotion, and like all other emotion love is a spectre of feelings. I believe that no instance of "feeling love" is exactly similar to any other, either across different times or different people. The only thing that makes us call it "love" is that it seems similar enough to what we have become accustomed to labeling "love" as we have a natural tendency to group all things into discrete compartments regardless of whether this is possible or not.

In that respect I believe that what one calls love may take many different forms and that two people can theoretically have entirely non-overlapping definitions of "love". But that's my wiev on things.
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I don't think you can love sexually without an emotional connection
I compeletely agree.
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Sin of Onan. Spilling his seed. Very bad.
Nope. What Onan did was to refuse to impregnate his late brother's widow. I can see no better interpretation of that passage than "If your brother dies, you must sleep with his wife and make her pregnant". If you really want to stretch it you could go for "don't jump off at the last turn" or perhaps "don't let it hit the ground". I really don't see how you can interpret it as "no masturbation". I mean what else are Catholic priests supposed to do? (no altar-boys jokes please)
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Constrain yourself to safe sex and disease rates plummet plus you get sex. Win-win.
I support you conclusion to the point that, as far as I can see, the intent is either:
A. To prevent diseases. In wich case anything sexual goes as far as protection is used or the spread of diseases is otherwise eliminated.
B. To allow sex only for the production of babies. In which cases sex is no longer permitted in any form, since the invention of in vitro fertilization ("test-tube" babies as they are called in Norway).
Edited by Concolor, 10 Dec 2009, 06:37 PM.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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yeah, i've never been convinced by the sin of onan business. I've heard it used to justify saying sexual behaviour should only be about making babies and not about pleasure (where I suppose it would have some relevance to masturbation).
I retract that statement. Also, if Junior feels there is nothing wrong with masturbation, I also retract may comment on that as well.

but while I'm on this train, why not check out some of the stops? Jesus said to look at a woman lustfully is to commit adultery in your own heart. And Paul also denounces fornication (although I'm not quite clear on what that means).
Do either apply to masturbation?
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Junior
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Tr point of the whole Onan thing was... God told Onan to do something and Onan disobeyed him every time he asked.
Call it what you want
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conradw
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So the moral of the story is "don't listen to your own judgement, just do what God tells you to."

Reminds me of a poem: "Theirs not to make reply,/Theirs not to reason why,/Theirs but to do and die". And look at how well that turned out for the Light Brigade.
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Junior
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So the moral of the story is "don't listen to your own judgement, just do what God tells you to."
That's... an interesting interpretation. The point is, when God counts on you to impregnate someone, don't disobey him. It's even worse in this case because it was in Genesis. There were very few people around, and if you didn't impregnate so many people, the human race would go extinct.
Call it what you want
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Concolor
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For the record I would like to point out that the Light Brigade wiped the floor with a large portion of the Russian army and is perhaps one of the greatest examples of the combination of awesome bravery and obedient stupidity in recorded history. 10 points for boldness, 0 points for not using the brain whatsoever.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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part of the reason why it was successful was because no one expected anyone to be so stupid as to charge the guns. Also, any military success they had was short lived.

As an example to others, maybe it was worth more.

@Junior: that brings us to an obvious question: how do you know when its God telling you to do something or when its your imagination, your own ideas, or the ideas of others?
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