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Gay Religion; GAY
Topic Started: 30 Nov 2009, 09:21 AM (8,285 Views)
Mr_JJ
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Afalstein
13 Apr 2010, 09:35 PM
In the cosmic sense, all of us, including you, me, and Pastor Jim, are sinners. The difference lies in how they address that sin. Christians are supposed to struggle against their sin and ask God for forgiveness. They're not supposed to revel in it, claim it's 'okay' and demand special rights to recognize that their sin isn't a problem.
This is sooo right...although we are no better than the prostitutes, murderers and any other sinner. We are all sinful. There is NO sin that is worse than any another...

1 Corinthians 9:11.
9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Do you not look at women in the street and go...'she is hot?'...or look at pornography when you know you shouldnt...Then you go and do it again anyway. We are born with sexual desire, which is itself a huge problem. If someone is born with homosexual desires rather than heterosexual desires though i do not believe it to be right, it is only a big a sin as pornography (to which might I add 60% of ministers prefess to watch on a regular basis) And lets face it pornography is just another form of prostitution... And then there is heterosexual fornication...People shouldnt have sex before marrige...and sex includes EVERY type of sexual activity! And Many christians do not hold to having no sex before marridge even though they should! I have many christian friends who 'revel' in there sexual misgivings...although they do not have sex they do sexual activities and are no better than homosexuals in Gods eyes.

We all sin and we do it repeatedly ourselfs, through being malice, decietful, jelous...I sin every single day!

Because granted I havent explained what I wanted to very well let me explain all this with a passage:

Mark 10:26 The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked. 27 Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God.”

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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Well, you say that every sin is equal, and that we are no better than murderers. That is interesting. I would think that not murdering someone is better than murdering someone.

I realize that sin is not necessarily connected to right/wrong, and more to following/breaking the commandments of a particular deity (thereby forming a new kind of right/wrong), but I have heard several Christians saying things like "being gay is the worst sin" as if there was in fact sins more severe than others. Also I would find it strange if genocidal baby-rape was not at least frowned slightly more upon than looking at a lady and thinking "wow, she looks cute".
Edited by Concolor, 17 Apr 2010, 12:55 PM.
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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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Concolor
17 Apr 2010, 12:52 PM
Well, you say that every sin is equal, and that we are no better than murderers. That is interesting. I would think that not murdering someone is better than murdering someone.

I realize that sin is not necessarily connected to right/wrong, and more to following/breaking the commandments of a particular deity (thereby forming a new kind of right/wrong), but I have heard several Christians saying things like "being gay is the worst sin" as if there was in fact sins more severe than others. Also I would find it strange if genocidal baby-rape was not at least frowned slightly more upon than looking at a lady and thinking "wow, she looks cute".
Frowned upon, definitely. If you're speaking in terms of societal impact, than unquestionably murder is worse than stealing and baby rape is worse than looking at a woman lustfully.

The problem is in terms of scale. Even if there is a distinction in God's wrath between baby rape and looking at a woman lustfully (a debatable point in itself--Jesus equates ogling and adultery), it's largely academic. God's wrath is infinite, his wrath against a minor sin is as infinite as it is against a major sin.

I suppose you could, though, make a case that a murderer or baby raper has a greater disregard for the laws of society and for the idea of morality in general, so he is less likely to appeal to God for forgiveness. It SHOWS a greater corruption of the soul, where the person might honestly not care about God's law, or even wants to set himself directly against God. But even then, it's just the demonstration. There could be plenty of people who defy God in their hearts and simply don't express it in that manner.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Afalstein
 
God's wrath is infinite, his wrath against a minor sin is as infinite as it is against a major sin.
But if God's wrath is equally infinite in both cases, who are we to say that the one sin is a minor and the other is a major one? As you just did, and I'm sure many others would as well.
Afalstein
 
A murderer or baby raper has a greater disregard for the laws of society and for the idea of morality in general
I would agree that such a person would have greater disregard for human laws and human morality, but as far as I can see he does NOT have a greater disregard for God's morality. After all, his sin is infinitely judged, exactly the same as the sin of the one looking at a girl lustfully. And so they have the exact same disregard for God's morality.

Whether they would be more or less likely to seek God's forgiveness if they commit a major crime is not necessarily straightforward. In the case of the Catholic priests in Europe (big headlines over here right now) that abused altar-boys and other children, I would think they are MORE prone (being priests) to ask for God's forgiveness than someone who looks at a girl lustfully, even if they have committed a worse crime in the eyes of laws and human morality.

Afalstein
 
There could be plenty of people who defy God in their hearts and simply don't express it in that manner.
Is it not better to defy God much in your heart and not harm others, than to defy him only a bit in your heart and harm others more? (Like lady-gazers vs a selected few of European Catholic priests?)
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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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We challenge or dare or oppose or resist or refuse or fail to obey God all the time - which is why we need a saviour :ermm: ? and we need one thats full of Grace

But he is ALSO FULL OF ANOTHER THING......

that thing is called TRUTH

The Grace of God is phenominaly powerfull BUT THE TRUTH SETS YOU FREE

So rather than figure the degrees of Defy which is judged by the creator alone

figure first if you

DENY







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Concolor
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Barabbas
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You and I have a very different view on what truth is ARAZEC :D
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you just choose not to look and not hold a view :)
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Concolor
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ARAZEC
18 Apr 2010, 07:16 AM
you just choose not to look
Right back at you ;)
ARAZEC
 
and not hold a view
What does that mean?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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:D

so lets divert from topic a bit and i promise it will get back to the topic title eventually.......

o.k so read the Bible story of the prodigal son

i am interested in your views

in your views not whats on the internet already from Christian or other perspectives.

Try to think about it and give an honest opinion of what might be taught through this parable if for one crazy unthinkable moment you believed in God.

What do you think are the two sons approaches to living life? What are their downfalls? What should the father have done? etc...etc...try if you will and humour me for a moment for the purposes of this exercise and dont try to end the discussion with some regurgitated response or a counter question for me to answer........

ill be waiting
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Afalstein
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Afalstein
 
God's wrath is infinite, his wrath against a minor sin is as infinite as it is against a major sin.
Concolor
 
But if God's wrath is equally infinite in both cases, who are we to say that the one sin is a minor and the other is a major one? As you just did, and I'm sure many others would as well.


Did I? That was not my intention, I used the expression "minor" and "major" for ease of reference. My point was that, in God's eyes, it doesn't make a difference. It's all sin, it's all reprehensible, he bears wrath against it all. So on this point, we largely agree.

Concolor
 
I would agree that such a person would have greater disregard for human laws and human morality, but as far as I can see he does NOT have a greater disregard for God's morality. After all, his sin is infinitely judged, exactly the same as the sin of the one looking at a girl lustfully. And so they have the exact same disregard for God's morality.


My point was the difference in the persons heart. They're judged absolutely equally, they receive the exact same amount of punishment (how many different kinds of infinity ARE there?), but they most likely do not have the same attitude toward God's law.

But then again, that's the sort of thing that's hard to determine.

Concolor
 

Afalstein
 
There could be plenty of people who defy God in their hearts and simply don't express it in that manner.
Is it not better to defy God much in your heart and not harm others, than to defy him only a bit in your heart and harm others more? (Like lady-gazers vs a selected few of European Catholic priests?)


Eh... define "better." Better for society? Probably. Better for God and your personal salvation? The point is academic. There's not really a "better" way of doing things in God's world. Defiance is defiance.

In the case of the Roman Catholic priests, I can't say an awful lot about the case, since I don't know much about it. But I'd say they're either in one of two categories.

a) People who seriously never cared about God's law and joined the priesthood for other reasons. Abusing others WHILE in God's service could simply indicate a blasphemous mind.

b)People who sincerely wished to do good, but were overcome by their lusts and fell into sin.

Now, though one story may be more tragic than the other, these are both sin, and they're both, as is, punished equally. But, from my point of view, the second group is much more likely to seek God's forgiveness for their sin.

That clear?
Edited by Afalstein, 18 Apr 2010, 05:48 PM.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein: Thanx, that seems pretty clear.

There is still one thing I'm having problems understanding:
Afalstein
 
Concolor
 
Afalstein
 
There could be plenty of people who defy God in their hearts and simply don't express it in that manner.
Is it not better to defy God much in your heart and not harm others, than to defy him only a bit in your heart and harm others more? (Like lady-gazers vs a selected few of European Catholic priests?)
Eh... define "better." Better for society? Probably. Better for God and your personal salvation? The point is academic. There's not really a "better" way of doing things in God's world. Defiance is defiance.
Why would not something that is better for society and other humans also be better for God?

@ARAZEC: Is that the one where the one son stays at home helping out, while the other one goes away spending all his money on whores, booze and parties? And then when he's broke he comes home and his dad is so thrilled that he gives him most (or all?) of the two son's inheritance, ignoring the son that has cared so deeply about his father all these years that he stayed at the farm to help out?

If I believed that there was a God, and that this God was the God of the Bible and that he was using this story to tell us something I would guess he was trying to say this:
"Do not care for others, go out and do whatever you feel like even if it harms yourself and people around you. Rest assure that whenever you get tired of stealing and whoring (and perhaps murdering and abusing, all sins are equal in the eyes of God), you can always come running back to Jesus and get your "Get into heaven for free"-card. If you, however, live a selfless life of helping others and respecting me then you will receive NO reward. I will take what is rightfully yours and give it to those who care for nothing bu themselves."

Naturally I would have huge problems with this.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Mr_JJ
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Concolor...Believe it or not my friend but you have a faith and a belief in God. By the fact you acknowlegde the term God, which equates to the fact you can fathom a being that equates to God. Therefore you must believe in a God...under this premise it is IMPOSIBLE to be an athiest. Because you must have a belief in God first, just to deny it. Therefore I would term you agnostic...:D

I also see your problems with the organised church...in many respects I agree with you 110%, in the same way we are saying sin is all equal in Gods eyes (and it is), they are not in humans eyes...Humans always see things differently to Gods eyes...because we are not Godly at all. Language is different in Humans eyes to Gods eyes...Time is different in Humans eyes to Gods eyes! Its all rather difficult to fathom God as a simple Human. :( Quite frankly under this premise I am saying that it is not possible to know God...On our silly Human terms. Therefore Granted I can see where you have a problem with anything that Humans have ever touched in relation to God. (Stick with me :D)

Know, I believe that inside every person is something that longs for God, whether it be the soul or something deep inside of the brain, there is a part of EVERY human that longs for God...We want to KNOW the truth with our human eyes. Sadly we will never find it. So what on Earth am I getting at is that...

I do believe is that you are searching for God, even though you are agnostic...like many many people in the world who question so much about the nature of God.

Whats more I think that you are walking the same path that I walked for many years...looking at the Big picture of religion and seeing on the face of it it doesnt work, I used to go to a church group just to debate and argue (went for 3 years before I got bored)...

Anyway, What i want to say is that if you take time to ask and seek God directly, without using your human eyes, using your spirit or soul or whatever it might be! you might attain more KNOWLEDGE of God than you could possibly attain through simple thought and reason. It will bowl you over when you see how its the little things that make up the bigger picture.

Although you have to scrutinize anything that humans have had an impact to...:D This can be easily assessed using that connection with God that we each innately have! Dont believe anything you are ever told until you bring it before the master :D

I think i deviated allittle from topic but it was something I felt driven to say :D ...
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Afalstein
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Concolor
19 Apr 2010, 11:46 PM
@Afalstein: Thanx, that seems pretty clear.

There is still one thing I'm having problems understanding:
Afalstein
 
Concolor
 
Afalstein
 
There could be plenty of people who defy God in their hearts and simply don't express it in that manner.
Is it not better to defy God much in your heart and not harm others, than to defy him only a bit in your heart and harm others more? (Like lady-gazers vs a selected few of European Catholic priests?)
Eh... define "better." Better for society? Probably. Better for God and your personal salvation? The point is academic. There's not really a "better" way of doing things in God's world. Defiance is defiance.
Why would not something that is better for society and other humans also be better for God?
Two reasons.

a) God is not society. God cares about society, sure, but when it comes down to it, society is about how people treat each other. Human society, by it's nature, is mortal and finite. God, by his nature, is immortal and infinite. Killing an innocent man can at times be good for society. It's never really good for God.

b) As I've said before, there's no "better" in God's world. There's good and there's evil, black and white. There are no half measures. God is absolute and he deals in absolutes.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein: Only a Sith deals in absolutes :D
If God cares about society, why did he not make it so that what is good for God is also good for society?

@Mr_JJ: Thank you for a very inspired reply. You have done something quite amazing, because your post both describes me and my thoughts quite accurately at the same time as it misses completely. Allow me to elaborate:
Mr_JJ
 
Believe it or not my friend but you have a faith and a belief in God. By the fact you acknowlegde the term God, which equates to the fact you can fathom a being that equates to God. Therefore you must believe in a God...under this premise it is IMPOSIBLE to be an athiest. Because you must have a belief in God first, just to deny it. Therefore I would term you agnostic
I am in fact agnostic, but an agnostic atheist. Agnostic means I don't know. More precisely I think no one knows. I'm aware that many people say they know, and perhaps think they know, but I don't buy their arguments. I also know that many of them have doubts. I don't have doubts, I know that I don't know and I'm okay with that. Atheist means I don't subscribe to a belief in any personal God (and there are a lot to choose from, but none of them seem convincing to me).

But you've hit the nail on the head by describing the problem. Because I only acknowledge the term "God" meaning "whichever supernatural thing YOU call God". I personally CANNOT fathom a being that is supernatural, personal, omnipotent, omnicient, just, caring, yet at the same time creating a world such as the one we live in. And whenever someone has tried to explain to me what their concept of a God is, I have never been able to find a coherent image which at the same time would be compatible with, and relevant for, this reality.

I also disagree that fathoming something means that you must believe it exists. I can imagine a giant bunny-rabbit orbiting Mars, but I do not believe it exists. I have also many different concepts of Gods (that I don't believe in), but when I ask people who believe in Gods their Gods always differ from the concepts I can understand in subtle and elusive ways.
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Quite frankly under this premise I am saying that it is not possible to know God...On our silly Human terms
I completely agree. That's why I'm having problems believing people who claim to not only know, but have a personal relationship with Allah, Krishna, Jahweh, Brahman etc.
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I do believe is that you are searching for God, even though you are agnostic...like many many people in the world who question so much about the nature of God.
Ah, a slight misunderstanding. I do not question about God. I question about Man. When answering (or dodging) my questions about their Gods (or political ideologies), believers tell me something very important about themselves, their minds, and how they interact as a group and with other groups. It tells me about the phenomenon of faith, how it affects people and how it arises or disappears.

Since you were once an outside observer of religion yourself, I guess you were just as amazed as I am about the diversity of religions, and the diversity even within religions. I have never met two people who have given me the same image of their God. I am intrigued by how when you talk with Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists they can sometimes behave so similar and sometimes so different. I believe faith is the same whether you believe in a God, an ideology, or a special rock you have under your pillow.

At least you have used the benefit of choosing your religion from the many options you have, so that it can fit you and your personality, rather than just growing up in one that maybe fit you less.
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What i want to say is that if you take time to ask and seek God directly, without using your human eyes, using your spirit or soul or whatever it might be! you might attain more KNOWLEDGE of God than you could possibly attain through simple thought and reason.
This is a very interesting statement. Why would you call it knowledge? How would you know that it's knowledge, and not something else?
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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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Concolor
20 Apr 2010, 01:21 PM
@Afalstein: Only a Sith deals in absolutes :D
If God cares about society, why did he not make it so that what is good for God is also good for society?

Ah yes. That line riles me up every time I hear it. Doesn't make much sense either, because as far as I could ever figure out, the Sith and the Jedi hold the exact same views on the Force. It's just the one happens to be evil.

Ahem.

God didn't make society. Or rather, God did, but not the way it is today. God MADE the world perfect and holy without blemish, but man decided he didn't like it that way and he fell into sin. Which is why we have the messed up society we have today.

Aside from that, what is good for God DOES tend to be good for society. Generally, refraining from covetous and hateful thoughts is good for society, and (I would argue) a God-worshipping society also tends to be a healthy one. It's just that what's good for society may not be good for God. It may be GOOD for the society to seize it's neighbor's diamond mines, but it's not good for God. (And arguably, that kind of route will eventually cause problems anyway).

I suppose a better way to put it is that God's precepts surpass those of society. Society: Don't kill. God: Don't hate.; Society: Don't Steal. God: Don't Covet.; etc. God requires much higher principles (in human terms), and he demands them absolutely. A person who murders has already broken God's law of 'don't hate.' The murder just turns that into a human sin. A law of God is generally a good law for society to follow (with the possible exception of matter of conscience, like "worship God"), but society makes plenty of laws that are really screwed up.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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