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The judging of suicides and murder; What happens when accused
Topic Started: 6 Jan 2010, 09:25 PM (1,050 Views)
cheesebug
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For some reason, many Christians beleive that if you murder or commit suicide, you go straight to Hell, even if it was and accident or you were protecting yourself/others. But have they forgotten that God judges our hearts, not our actions? i get it, if you cold-bloodedly murdered someone or took an overdose because you gave up, there is a chance of you going to Hell. But let's say someone is in your house strangling your spouse! You takeout a gun, and shoot him. And something inside you says, "Oop, you are going straight to Hell." And you may go to jail for it of course. But when God sees your heart, doesn't he automatically see the point of your actions, even though they may be stupid?
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this is a really good debate question

Prov. 24:11 sums up by saying we are to do all we can to prevent death

apparently a lot of suicide is impulse -the devil will whisper into your ear at your weakest moment and lie to you about suicide stopping your pain and being a way out-ITS NOT-SO BE PREPARED FOR THIS and set your mind beforehand as taking your life not being an option.
its a given that we will all experiance feelings like this at some point and feel no hope.

NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING is beyond Gods grace and forgiveness.
its not about choice
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conradw
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Well that's an interesting question.

Of course you know my position on that already (no one goes to hell), but allow me to explore the question more thoroughly.

One issue is that from what I've been told on this forum (I don't know whether or not you agree or disagree with it) is that God doesn't judge us on our 'hearts' but only on whether or not we accept Jesus as Saviour and repent of all our sins.

Another is the importance of the injunction against suicide: If the next life is so much better than this one, why aren't Christians throwing themselves of bridges all the time? I've read about suicide being a form of murder - one which you're unable to repent for because after you're dead (which I think is bull, because you can regret putting something into motion before its completed) - and also that it is a demonstration of lack of faith: If you don't trust God to help you through your troubles, then you don't trust him enough to get into heaven.

On that last note, I have to ponder: Why would someone be punished for not trusting someone to save them from their ills when that 'saviour' has time and time again demonstrated himself to not be interested in saving people from their ills?

But I don't think that anyone has said that murder is a sin that sends you straight to hell. Otherwise St Paul is roasting...
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conradw
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But whether or not the devil tempts you into doing it doesn't mean you're going to hell does it?
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so what do you have to say about suicide?
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conradw
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I don't want anyone to kill themselves. I would not like, however to live in a world where we don't honour acts of the ultimate sacrifice though (a fire fighter I read about springs to mind, but there are people of every profession risking their lives for others every day).

I don't think that anyone goes straight to hell for committing suicide. To be honest, I don't think the threat of hell is going to stop a lot of people from ending their own life, but it might add to the troubles of an already grieved heart.

Is there an element of selfishness involved? in some cases, I think there is. But not always. A loss of motivation? a loss of self worth? A loss of dignity?


on a closing note. I know this is a horrible thing to say, but if ever you find yourself in that dark place, don't take a paracetamol overdose. 3-5 days of slow, inexorable, excruciating decline ending death. Long enough to regret it. If there is a 'worst way to go', this is it.

tl;dr, I'm not a fan
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conradw
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Does the devil only tempt you to do things that send you to hell?
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a trick question no doubt?

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Concolor
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Great topic cheezy :D Here's my opinion.

First of all, I believe that the Bible is quite clear on both the existence of Hell and that people wind up there. So if one is to take the Bible as the truth, I see no way around that one.

Suicide:
To categorically label suicide as either right or wrong is in my opinion to ignore the huge differences between the many situations we would call suicide (my definition: The act of taking one's own life. Either directly and prompted, or by setting in motion events that will clearly lead to your death) I would also exclude accidental suicides from this discussion.
conradw:
 
a fire fighter I read about springs to mind
If someone made an action that would result in saving many people's lives, at the cost of his/her own, then that person is a hero.
If the sole provider for a number of small children is tired of his/her job, and longing for an unattainable career as a movie star, decides to empty a bottle of pills and fall asleep forever then this is a despicable act of uncaring neglect.

When it comes to the religious view on this, it is obvious both logically and from experience that if the religion does not have a specific prohibition against both murder and suicide, everyone who truly believes in the dogmas of that religion will kill themselves as soon as possible. This is why suicide sects become suicide sects, because the creators of the religion forgot to put in the anti-suicide clause. All religions who make a promise that what comes after death will be better than life have such a clause. Otherwise they would die out immediately by their own hands.

The Bible is to me not entirely clear on this, as I have heard one is to be Christ-like, and what Christ is most highly celebrated for is that he sacrificed himself to himself (God) to save human souls.

Murder:
Once again it's really not black and white. As cheesebug commented (and I would put it even more strongly): If a man takes your family hostage and intends to rape and torture them to death, and you pull out a gun and takes his life instantly and painlessly, you are not only a hero for saving your family. You are also benevolent enough to allow the would be rapist, torturer and murderer to die quick and painless when I bet that every muscle in your body wants to strangle him slowly with a barbed wire. We also kill animals and plants to eat them.

If one is to involve religion into this, like Christianity and the Bible, it is still not very clear. One of the commandments is "You shall not kill" and that sounds clear enough. But the first thing that Moses did after receiving this commandment was to order the Israelites to murder everyone who had been worshiping a golden calf. And just like God did in the old testament, we are promised that in the end days Jesus and several angels will kill basically everyone on the planet.
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Concolor
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Ethics:
But you (cheesebug) are also touching upon an even more interesting point: Which code of ethics is one to follow to live a moral life?
In this example I think there are mainly three specific ethics competing:
- Should one judge only by good or bad intentions?
- Should one judge only by good or bad conequenses of an act?
- Should one judge only by following or not following certain rules?

In your example it is mainly a conflict between the first (the intention to save your family is a good intention, that's what's in your heart) and the last (it is in violation with a specific ethical rule of a specific religion). One could also involve the middle one by saying that the consequence of your act is to liberate your family, and spare them pain and death, which is good.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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consequence-wise, you're also killing someone, which I think most people would rather not do but for the laws of hypothetical situations.
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Concolor
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That is true, I sorta skipped straight to the utilitarian point of view there :$
Edited by Concolor, 7 Jan 2010, 02:09 PM.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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This is rubbish ! God does not need to sacrifice hiimself to himself-he is God
The call for a christian is to take up HIS OWN cross -as Christ shows.
The bible is clear on this! (scriptures quoted if u want)
The bible is also clear on sancification-Christ died for us and was the ultimate sacrifice
to propose that someone needs to end their own life when Christ died to give us life (scriptures quoted if you want) well its kind of distorting the whole truth of the Cross.

Quote:
 
If the sole provider for a number of small children is tired of his/her job, and longing for an unattainable career as a movie star, decides to empty a bottle of pills and fall asleep forever then this is a despicable act of uncaring neglect.
The Bible also clearly teaches that we are not to judge-and about Gods love -how can you say this? This may come as a surprise to you but God loves this sole provider just as much as the firefighter you describe as a hero.
suppose we could puts some background into lead up to both acts in your example to sway opinion as to who is despicable or not - but God does not see us like we see others luckily Christ knows all our despicable ugliness and still calls us to himself-its called love,grace and mercy a limitless supply for sinners thats what he offers us-should we choose to accept it.

The heavy burdens life deals- he invites us to exchange for his yoke which is light

Wether you beleive it or not our lives have worth - even if you feel you are worthless !
Jesus paid for your life and we are all worthy-the bible talks about us belonging to God our lives are not ours for the taking-but graciously God allows us free will and an invitation with a promise.

so is suicide the answer -no dont seek to end your life -seek to give your life to God
thats when your life really begins.






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suicide is NEVER GOOD-DONT LET YOURSELF BE CONFUSED ABOUT THIS-SUICIDE NEVER HELPED ANYONE-YOU DO NOT NEED TO EVER END YOUR OWN LIFE
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conradw
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Quote:
 
God does not need to sacrifice hiimself to himself-he is God
The call for a christian is to take up HIS OWN cross -as Christ shows.
The bible is clear on this! (scriptures quoted if u want)
The bible is also clear on sancification-Christ died for us and was the ultimate sacrifice
I'm going to be pendantic, and ask Christ died as the ulitmate sacrifice if not God (ie: himself)?

Otherwise, this is a rare occasion where Arazec and I are in pretty much complete agreement, although I would possibly be slightly less vehement about it.

The Bible does say (in the fireman's defence) Greater love has no man but this - and I tend to agree. But does this count a suicide in the normal sense of the word? probably not.

This topic can't be fully explored without a stop on the topic on Euthanasia. Despite being able to see that arguments in favour of it (and I really can, and they are very good arguments - its a terrifying thing when you realise 'actually, in their position I think I would rather end it as well') I can't help but feel the thing as surrender. On that note, I don't even like the idea of putting down sick animals - I don't think I could be a vet.
In my humble point of view, to allow euthanasia on a large scale destroys the entire purpose of treatment and research - We search for treatments for diseases because we don't accept that death - no matter how painless - is an acceptable alternative.

I grant that what I said can be seen as massively selfish, and I accept that. And would I take the same point of view were it me on the respirator, maybe not. :-/
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