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God vs science, or professor vs student?; A reply to a thread in the "Bible Lessons-section"
Topic Started: 28 Feb 2010, 11:33 AM (3,578 Views)
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I don't see what ivy league graduates have to do with god


Do you not know we call God our Father in Heaven?

and

... he is very well connected....omnipotent....as far up you can go....like the ivy league in a way...

and

Alumni of a life in Christ not graduating of the things of this world...blah blah

and

You know belonging to Christ is having every privledge -he turns our ashes to GOLD

and

Well we can decide to receive whats already ours by covenant promise and imagine the impact - look at how 2 ivy league grads changed the world in their particular way- - ? How often we limit ourselves due to our perceived opportunities,not enough time,money,favour,education all the circumstances of life -lack- in Christ we lack nothing

As for Adoption- Gods Adoption is in the legal sense - the contract was signed in Blood

Fortunately he will never forsake us-so the example of subjectivness as our father God has no relevance-he will always be your father his status never changes even if you reject him- "oh you were like a father to me" comment will never be rejected if you consider
him as your father...


He actually paid a price for us too -but he does not use force to collect on those who belong to him (mankind) he uses invitation....

But with God theres no Calderback Principle - No without predudose save to costs.....there is not a partial compromise for the costs you either give your life to God or not- if you do you will be on the winning side -
but unlike the Calderback Principal he will never settle for less of you regardless of the costs.........


he gives us ALL as heirs seated at the throne-death has no hold and in eternal life there is no need to wait for God to die-AS ETERNAL LIFE IS THE INHERINTENCE !!!!

* [see calderback v calderback] mehhh

*UK Law*
The bible refers to sons and daughters here - so no worries girls or blokes -like alumni is used for both...by some

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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Erm...did you just refer to your God as a crazy stalker?
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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
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Quote:
 
Do you not know we call God our Father in Heaven?
I do not see what calling God our Father in heaven has to do with ivy league graduates...
Also, I could call the Postman my Father in Heaven - doesn't mean I'm his heir.

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... he is very well connected....omnipotent....as far up you can go....like the ivy league in a way...
As someone who goes to a very good university (admittedly not Ivy League) the comparison to God makes my ego happy :$

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Alumni of a life in Christ not graduating of the things of this world...blah blah
I don't get what you mean by Alumni of a life in Christ, nor graduating of the things of this world. Could you be a bit more clear (and show how it relates).

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You know belonging to Christ is having every privledge -he turns our ashes to GOLD
He hasn't turned my ashes to gold. If he did, I'd burn toast more often. If anything my bread gets turned to ashes :(. Again, what this has to do with Ivy Leaguers is escaping me: do Ivy Leaguers turn ashes into gold? is it like their motto?

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Well we can decide to receive whats already ours by covenant promise and imagine the impact - look at how 2 ivy league grads changed the world in their particular way- - ? How often we limit ourselves due to our perceived opportunities,not enough time,money,favour,education all the circumstances of life -lack- in Christ we lack nothing
Okay, maybe now i'm getting you. History is full of people who have changed the course of human events. Like what you speak of, William Blake described as Mind-forged manacles. But I think you lack nothing with or without Christ.

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As for Adoption- Gods Adoption is in the legal sense - the contract was signed in Blood
You do know contracts need not be in blood to be valid. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if blood may invalidate them (evidence of coercion). The other point is, I'd like to see the small print.

Quote:
 
Fortunately he will never forsake us-so the example of subjectivness as our father God has no relevance-he will always be your father his status never changes even if you reject him- "oh you were like a father to me" comment will never be rejected if you consider him as your father...

Are you sure that God sees himself as your father? has he ever told you so? Did he ever work a job he hated to put food on the table for you and your siblings? Being a father is a bigger job than just getting someone to call you a father.

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He actually paid a price for us too -but he does not use force to collect on those who belong to him (mankind) he uses invitation....
God paid a price for us? to whom did he pay? Also, I don't recognise slavery - you can't own someone, no matter how much you paid for them.

Quote:
 
But with God theres no Calderback Principle - No without predudose save to costs.....there is not a partial compromise for the costs you either give your life to God or not- if you do you will be on the winning side -
but unlike the Calderback Principal he will never settle for less of you regardless of the costs.........

Does it take any effort on God's part to not send me to hell? why not give me eternal life but in a way that I don't have to live with him - afterall, isn't eternal life my birthright as heir? If it can be denied to me because i didn't accept all the strings attached, then its not my birthright to begin with.
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he gives us ALL as heirs seated at the throne-death has no hold and in eternal life there is no need to wait for God to die-AS ETERNAL LIFE IS THE INHERINTENCE !!!!
You dont get your inheritance until the current owner is dead. Also eternal life would be handy if you're trying to out-live god.

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The bible refers to sons and daughters here - so no worries girls or blokes -like alumni is used for both...by some
Nope. the book says sons. Is this because it was written at a different time with different cultural values? sure. But if God's word is eternal, then so are his biases. Sorry Azerac, you've been cheated.
How about this, after the first half of my eternal life is over, you can have the rest.
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Sorry Azerac, you've been cheated.
damm who is this chick? someone ouuta let her know

*ARAZEC*

reading over my post i cant really point fingers about the spelling -lets just say ur tertiary study ego would lead me to beleive you know better.
since we are talking about identity and all.....

i would love to answer you now but hhhmm netball season starting today....
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conradw
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sorry. Arazec.

How did you come up with that name?
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Junior
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Her ethnic name is Cezara, which is Arezec backwards.
Call it what you want
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dragonshardz
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Troll
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MADNESS!

Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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I lurk a lot on this forum, and am very busy in real life, so don't be surprised if I take a couple days, or even weeks, to reply to your post or PM.

GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any other forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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Junior
11 Apr 2010, 11:09 AM
Her ethnic name is Cezara, which is Arezec backwards.
Arezec backwards is cezera :blink: :blink: :blink:

anyways its a nice theory ;) :ninja:
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Afalstein
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conrad w
 
Are you sure that God sees himself as your father? has he ever told you so? Did he ever work a job he hated to put food on the table for you and your siblings? Being a father is a bigger job than just getting someone to call you a father.


Well, he calls himself our father, he calls us his children, he MADE US (in his image, no less), he gave us the world we live in and all that we eat, he continually helps us in everything we do, he shows us the way to go through his Word...

So yeah, he's a good father. Actually, he's more like the ultimate father.

conradw
 

Quote:
 
He actually paid a price for us too -but he does not use force to collect on those who belong to him (mankind) he uses invitation....
God paid a price for us? to whom did he pay? Also, I don't recognise slavery - you can't own someone, no matter how much you paid for them.

Does it take any effort on God's part to not send me to hell? why not give me eternal life but in a way that I don't have to live with him - afterall, isn't eternal life my birthright as heir? If it can be denied to me because i didn't accept all the strings attached, then its not my birthright to begin with.


Points are connected so I'll deal with them together. It not only takes an effort on God's part not to send you hell, it is logically impossible without Jesus 'paying the price'--to God, interestingly enough.

Let's put it this way. God made us perfect. Wonderfully intelligent, beautifully handsome, perfectly holy, immortal. Gave us eternal life, too, by all accounts. Unfortunately, man decided he'd rather try to be God himself, which he thought he could do by finding out what evil was.

That... didn't work out.

So. We sorta lost our "inheritance" or birthright by sinning against God. Now, oddly enough, even though we hate our sin (DON'T try to tell me people like this world the way it is), we can't get enough of it, because that's how sin works. It's like an addiction, you hate it and you love it. So, we are "enslaved" to our sin, much like a drug addict is "enslaved" to heroin or what have you.

"Sin" here is defined as anything that deviates from God's law--which he's perfectly right to demand from us, by the way, because he MADE us. It's like saying a watchmaker has no right to set the time on his clock. Likewise, when you say that no one, not even God, can own a human, it's like saying Bill Gates can't own his computer. It don't make no sense.

Now, because God is eternal and infinite, he necessarily has infinite anger against sin. And because he is infinitely just, whoever sins must be punished. So for God to "not send you to hell," he would have to be rejecting his infinite status. Going against himself is the one thing God CANNOT do. Hence, he has to expend his infinite wrath on finite beings, which, by simple division, takes an infinite amount of time.

There is one loophole, fortunately, brought on by God's (infinite) love. God can expend his wrath on an infinite being, who can take God's infinite wrath against sin within a finite timeframe. That's what we get with Jesus. Satisfies God's infinite Justice by absorbing his infinite wrath into his infinite love. It's called infinite grace.

Got all that?
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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How about a bit of infinite forgiveness, and then we'd all go to heaven without all the trouble? :D God is omnipotent, so he can decide it to be just. And if he does, the feeling that "justice means punishment" would just be a purely human invention, not applicable to God.
Edited by Concolor, 20 Apr 2010, 11:40 PM.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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Concolor
20 Apr 2010, 11:39 PM
How about a bit of infinite forgiveness, and then we'd all go to heaven without all the trouble? :D God is omnipotent, so he can decide it to be just. And if he does, the feeling that "justice means punishment" would just be a purely human invention, not applicable to God.
There's actually an interesting philosophical question about whether people WANT to go to heaven, or at least if they want to do so on God's ticket. After all, to go to heaven under God's sponsorship, you first have to admit that you need his help to go there, which requires admitting that you're sinful and utterly incapable of going there under your own power. I've actually talked to a lot of people who say they'd rather suffer hell than submit to any kind of God.

Hard to say whether "justice means punishment" is a human invention or not, isn't it? I mean, you could be right, but it just as easily might be one of the few things that humanity got right. I think I could definitely say that justice means satisfaction, and God's wrath still needs satisfaction. He can't decide not to be angry at sin, that goes against the definitions of "sin" and "God."
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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@Alf i like how you explain sanctification *you missed some great discussions on it previously....

hhhmm i dont beleive there was a real consensous on the definition of sin or God in that discussion though ......

but we did talk about Gods perfect Judgement and his solution by sending Jesus thus making a way for ultimate forgiveness -so he did decide on making it "Just" but as Alf points out the free will (btw there was also debate on whether free will truely exsists) of man allows us to reject God which is "punishing" because being without infinate love for infinity and beyond ----- hurts :(

Got all that ?


Just in case its ;) Toy Story if you missed the reference

and yep ever tried living forever in perfect love with a robotic humanoid that does what its programmed ???

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conradw
Goliath
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Well a couple of thing are wrong with that. So many that I'll have to get back to you on the others.

One thing of course is that I was never made perfect. I was always crap at cricket. I imagine I will always be crap at cricket. When you talk about trying to be God you're actually not telling the truth. That story is not historically true.

Next. Justice means sin needs a punishment. You yourself just said that it could easily be something we just made up. I think there is something just and righteous about mercy and forgiveness - these don't contradict justice, but are integral to it. As a great man once said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Eye-for-an-eye Justice like that is not justice but wickedness.

Its also anathema to justice for the innocent to suffer instead of the guilty. If God has a problem with the way I behave, he should bring it up with me, not make someone else suffer for it. If nothing else is wicked, it is this.

I've made a lot of things - doesn't make them my children. On the other hand, the children that I do seek to someday have are not my property. If you think people can be owned in the same way Bill Gates owned a computer then you have twisted yourself into such a knot that you're now supporting slavery.
If, like me, you reject slavery, then it might be time for you to reconsider your stance entirely.
Edited by conradw, 23 Apr 2010, 06:57 AM.
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Afalstein
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conradw
 
I was never made perfect. I was always crap at cricket. I imagine I will always be crap at cricket. When you talk about trying to be God you're actually not telling the truth. That story is not historically true.


My apologies. When I said "we" I mean "humanity." I should have made that clear. And actually man trying to be God is fairly well documented historically, you have Caesars, Pharaohs, and numerous other kings who pretended to be God. You could make a case that Hitler and many others in recent years have had similar ambitions. The specific example I was referring to was Adam, but even outside that things are fairly well established.

conrad2
 

Next. Justice means sin needs a punishment. You yourself just said that it could easily be something we just made up. I think there is something just and righteous about mercy and forgiveness - these don't contradict justice, but are integral to it. As a great man once said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Eye-for-an-eye Justice like that is not justice but wickedness.


Could you give me an example or an argument to work from? "I think" is an awfully vague comment, what basis do you actually have for supposing mercy and forgiveness are integral to justice? Mercy and Righteousness are wonderful things that do relate to Justice, but I can't really see how they are integral to it.

Just because one makes the whole world blind does not necessarily mean one is wrong to do so. They might very well deserve it, indeed your great man's saying almost presupposes that they do.

conradw
 

Its also anathema to justice for the innocent to suffer instead of the guilty. If God has a problem with the way I behave, he should bring it up with me, not make someone else suffer for it. If nothing else is wicked, it is this.


Who said anything about God making someone else suffer for it? Most accounts portray as Jesus perfectly willing to pay the price. Technically, Jesus is God's son, or even himself in an odd sense, so God is perfectly just to inflict wrath on himself (or on his willing son) to spare humans.

Of course, if you have a problem with Jesus doing that, you're perfectly free to decline it.

conradw
 
I've made a lot of things - doesn't make them my children. On the other hand, the children that I do seek to someday have are not my property. If you think people can be owned in the same way Bill Gates owned a computer then you have twisted yourself into such a knot that you're now supporting slavery.
If, like me, you reject slavery, then it might be time for you to reconsider your stance entirely.


Ah, but that's the thing! See, I am very much against slavery--as man enslaving man. One man is not better than any other man, he has no right to dictate to another. Similarly, your children are not your property because they are humans like you, and therefore equal.

God, believe it or not, is not equal to man. God, by his very nature, IS precisely above you and me in the same way that Bill Gates is above his computer.

I have absolutely no problem with being a slave to God, because he not only made me, saved me from sin, and continually upholds me, but also because he happens to occupy that position by right. What makes more sense than treating God as a god?
Edited by Afalstein, 23 Apr 2010, 08:14 AM.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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conradw
Goliath
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I'll keep this brief. Mainly because I don't need many words to convey this message.

You have just argued in favour of slavery and making the whole world blind. You just said you don't see what mercy and forgiveness have to do with justice. Think about the last time you asked for someone's forgiveness and tell me that forgiveness is not integral to justice.

I think I'm done here. Let me ask everyone else reading this: does this sound like someone is sharing the love of God?
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