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| God vs science, or professor vs student?; A reply to a thread in the "Bible Lessons-section" | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 28 Feb 2010, 11:33 AM (3,577 Views) | |
| Afalstein | 23 Apr 2010, 08:38 AM Post #46 |
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Mountain Gnome
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Yes I did. Congratulations on your observational skills. Did you read the distinction between slavery to God and slavery to man? Can you give me a reason WHY the whole world should not be blind? Could you give me an argument that actually gives me a REASON to suppose mercy and forgiveness are integral to justice? When I ask for forgiveness, I don't suppose I deserve it. I don't assume that if the person is just, he will forgive me. The whole point of forgiveness is that you have no right to it. When I ask for forgiveness, I'm admitting I'm wrong and that I deserve to be punished. Deserve. As in, according to Justice. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| Concolor | 23 Apr 2010, 11:07 AM Post #47 |
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Barabbas
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Great, a couple of days of working late and suddenly my discussion is overtaken by two theists bashing each other @Afalstein: Why do you suppose justice involves punishment and not forgiveness? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Afalstein | 23 Apr 2010, 12:53 PM Post #48 |
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Mountain Gnome
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*shrugs* It happens. I've had some spare time recently. Justice involves satisfaction. In the case of perfection (which never exists in the human realm) there's nothing to be satisfied. In the case of transgression (which ALWAYS exists), there's God's anger to deal with. Anger, particularly God's anger, doesn't just go away, it needs to be satisfied. Hence, punishment. Or, to put it another way, if you consider justice to be about what one deserves, than all of humanity DESERVES to be punished for turning from God's law. God actually told Adam in the Garden that if he ate the fruit, the punishment would be death. Adam ate the Fruit. Hence, death. Hence, punishment. Forgiveness is in some senses the flip side of Justice, as it allows for satisfaction of God's infinite love. In that respect you could consider it justice. But under no stretch of the imagination could you consider forgiveness something humanity DESERVES or has a RIGHT to. God would be perfectly just to burn the lot of us, but he's infinitely loving so he doesn't. Because he does offer forgiveness. It's a very important part of God's redemptive process, but unless you first allow for God's wrath and righteousness, it doesn't make any sense. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| conradw | 23 Apr 2010, 02:30 PM Post #49 |
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Goliath
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If justice involves satisfaction, then satisfaction can come just as easily - if not more easily - through mercy, forgiveness and love than revenge. Any parent that commits what you suggest God does would be imprisoned and their children taken into care. Are we not God's children? or are we his pawns and playthings? A true father forgives unconditionally just as the father does in story of the Prodigal Son. And as for Adam and the fruit - well *I* didn't eat that fruit, why am I punished for his sin? And I realise I'm full of sayings by Great men. This one comes (I believe) from Martin Luther King Jr, and while i can't remember the exact wording, it says that true justice is always an act of love. Which is more just, more righteous, more "Godly" - to exact revenge on a transgressor or to reconcile all the aggrieved parties? Every child has a right to the unconditional love of a parent. No parent worthy of the name would demand penance to pour out their love for their child. This is the difference between our points of view. I say you are a child of God. You say I am an appliance of God |
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| Afalstein | 23 Apr 2010, 03:38 PM Post #50 |
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Mountain Gnome
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Did I mention any condition? That is, apart from the whole sacrifice-my-son-to-save-you sort of thing? And that you have to rely on God on it? Sure God's love is unconditional. But his love does rescue us from something. a) our own sin, b) his own wrath.
Adam was a representative of mankind. He fell, so the rest of us did too. "As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." Why, do you consider yourself perfect? Your Martin Luther King quote is interesting, but it does not necessarily offer anything against my position on God. If you want to claim God isn't as I say he is, you should try quoting from God... i.e. the Bible. Just because that's what Martin Luther King Jr. thought Justice was doesn't make it so. But, acknowledging the statement that it is more "just" to reconcile all aggrieved parties, who are the aggrieved parties in this equation? Humanity? The only person who has had wrong done to him is God, they only person he needs to reconcile this to is himself.
Interesting turn of phrase: "right" to "unconditional" love. Doesn't unconditional love imply that it's not based on any conditions? Including rights? See, actually, I think the difference between our views is that you consider that God owes us certain things and has to treat us in a certain way. And I'm sorry, but that's not the case. God made us, saved us, died for us, and upholds us, he doesn't OWE us anything and he never did. He did it because in his infinite love he wanted to, not because Justice compelled him to. God does love us unconditionally. Yes. That's why he sent his son to die for us. God also hates sin. If he didn't, it wouldn't be sin and he wouldn't be God. Take away God's wrath and God's forgiveness and love is meaningless. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| conradw | 24 Apr 2010, 12:26 AM Post #51 |
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Goliath
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So does that mean that all people are saved regardless of whether or not you are Christian? |
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| Afalstein | 24 Apr 2010, 09:35 AM Post #52 |
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Mountain Gnome
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No. You have to admit you NEED to be saved, and that you can't get there on your own. Basically, you have to honestly ask Christ for forgiveness. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| Deleted User | 25 Apr 2010, 07:45 PM Post #53 |
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and the thing about mercy is that it costs nothing...... *GODS MERCY COSTS NOTHING? sorry i dont agree -MERCY COSTS NOTHING TO THE RECEIVER BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THERE IS NO PRICE-THERE IS ALWAYS A COST TO THE GIVER* thus GRACE is a gift -thats why christians YIELD to Gods Grace. See GRACE is unconditional kindness to an undserving person at an uncomfortable price. Its easy to forgive the Postman for delivering a letter but harder to forgive the unibomber when your 5yr old picks up the mail......the more unjust the transgression the harder the forgivness the higher the PRICE to the person forgiving- and so when will we realise we will never be God ? who of us is truely comparable ? i wonder and would love to know what Jesus wrote in the sand that day when he asked the crowd who by the law of the day had come to stone to death the adulterous women....the day he said "let the one of you without sin cast the first stone" when the crowd were baggering Jesus he wrote things in the sand - one by one the ppl in the crowd walked away...
....yes interesting isnt it-so this father shows forgivness and great MERCY but where does it say he accepts the first sons behaviour? does the father give the first son a bunch of whores and a credit card? forgiving someone does not mean you support and encourage the behaviour now does it? BUT !!! HOW MANY OF US ARE LIKE THE SECOND SON???? he thought because he was a "good person" doing "the right things" that he DESERVED and had a RIGHT to not be mercyfull or forgive why was he doing all those right things....to earn the right to be proud and say YOU OWE ME ???? Christians who love God want to please God not BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO because they WANT TO so no God did not create SLAVES or PLAYTHINGS how many of us live our lives like that? in the end the second son was no better than the first-in fact he REJECTED THE FATHER !!! he refused to go into the banquet in front of all the whole village rejecting his fathers pleas and AUTHORITY. a few of us may have fallen like the 1st prodigal son- but many of us fall by being the 2nd PRIDEFULL prodigal son. |
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| Concolor | 26 Apr 2010, 11:45 AM Post #54 |
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Barabbas
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Now I read it quite the opposite. Sure, forgiving his long lost son for leaving is a good thing. But why does he reward him more than the son who had cared for his father all this time? Does God tell us: "Do not worship me, serve me, or follow my commands. Go out and steal and whore and do as you like. Then convert on your deathbed. I will take from those who followed me and give to those who did not."? Hey, this actually sounds pretty sweet. I can continue defying God for most of my life, and then convert on my deathbed. I will receive YOUR place in heaven.
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 26 Apr 2010, 03:41 PM Post #55 |
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Goliath
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So its not unconditional. |
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| Deleted User | 27 Apr 2010, 09:47 PM Post #56 |
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Quick swap of the questions ay? GODS LOVE OF HUMANITY = UNCONDITIONAL AVAILABLE TO ALL PEOPLE SALVATION = UNCONDITIONAL AVAILABLE TO ALL -Tit 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men..." what is this Salvation thats available to all ? The doctrine of Christian Salvation has conditions God doesnt "need" you to "serve" him he is God HELLO? He WANTS you to want to serve and obey him for your own good and by your own free will hence thats why he created you with a free will - choose to live the life of a libertine if you consider it rewarding history is full of many that have gone before you. The Second son didnt lose anything-he still had his half of the inheritence- The second son as shown by his actions of rejecting his fathers pleas and not entering the feast didnt worship,serve or follow the commands of his father - he did it so the father would owe him something, he did it untill it cost him submission, he did it untill it required forgivness, he did it untill it required him to lose his pride -he did it really on his own terms The thing is that the second son would have gained so much- had he wanted to please the Father- not for other reasons but just out of love & trust for his Father.... |
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| Concolor | 27 Apr 2010, 11:30 PM Post #57 |
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC: He did loose his inheritance. The calf they slaughtered for the feast was his inheritance. Another thing he found unfair was that the father showed more love for the returning son than the remaining son. The remaining son had never had a feast in honor of him. After selflessly caring for his father all these years, he naturally gets angry when the other son gets appreciated for doing nothing. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 28 Apr 2010, 06:30 AM Post #58 |
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nope the Calf as the father said was his anytime he wanted-and an inheritance was half the fathers wealth after he died usually from landholdings -so the father did not give the seconds son inheritance away. pppssstt lifes unfair - this second son didnt do it outta love -he did it for entitlement -so he could say....you owe me...thats not selfless-and it is natural to get angry-but no excuse to let your own pride,jealousy and unforgivness disown your redeemed brother & disobey your own father now is it? |
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| conradw | 28 Apr 2010, 03:31 PM Post #59 |
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Goliath
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Maybe the message is exactly that - seize the day, take a risk, live your life because God will always be there for you when you're ready. ‘Lord make me pure - but not yet.’ |
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| Deleted User | 28 Apr 2010, 05:38 PM Post #60 |
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"seize the day, take a risk, live your life" I TOTALLY AGREE !!! and its scriptural (on req) "God will always be there for you when you're ready" I TOTALLY AGREE !!! and its scriptural (on req) the "because" in the middle you have used to link your statement not sure.... |
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and the thing about mercy is that it costs nothing......

6:46 PM Jul 10